Not By Works

[so-jesus-e-deus]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

Right! We are saved by Jesus' works inside us. If it was by our works, we would be condemned, inasmuch as we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away (Isaiah 64.6).

 

[TruthTalk]

As I have said before, OSAS is not a doctrine of the Church but "Eternal Security" is.

Question: "Eternal security - is it biblical?"

"Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit."

Answer: When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their eternal security. Jude 24 declares, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy." God's power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.


The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b). Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son?

Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[PS]

As I have said before, OSAS is not a doctrine of the Church but "Eternal Security" is.

Question: "Eternal security - is it biblical?"

"Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit."

Answer: When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their eternal security. Jude 24 declares, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy." God's power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.


The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b). Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son?

Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Correct, provided, "you continue in your faith."

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
(Colossians 1:21-23)

The problem is not with God, heaven forbid, He will keep us safe and secure in the palm of his hand, PROVIDED we do not lose our faith in Him and become unbelievers i.e. become atheist like Hymenaeus and Alexander who shipwrecked their faith and were handed over to Satan. (1 Tim 1:20)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Correct, provided, "you continue in your faith."

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
(Colossians 1:21-23)

The problem is not with God, heaven forbid, He will keep us safe and secure in the palm of his hand, PROVIDED we do not lose our faith in Him and become unbelievers i.e. become atheist like Hymenaeus and Alexander who shipwrecked their faith and were handed over to Satan. (1 Tim 1:20)

what does the bible say about those who stop trusting god and turn to unbelievers?

1 John 2: 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[PS]

what does the bible say about those who stop trusting god and turn to unbelievers?

1 John 2: 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Their end is worse than before they turned to Christ.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(2Pe 2:20 KJV)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Their end is worse than before they turned to Christ.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(2Pe 2:20 KJV)

well think if you had the truth of the word, and the hope of salvation in your grasp. and you let it go because your faith was not their..

and then you have an eternity to think about it, Yeah, that would be worse.

 

[TruthTalk]

Correct, provided, "you continue in your faith."

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
(Colossians 1:21-23)

The problem is not with God, heaven forbid, He will keep us safe and secure in the palm of his hand, PROVIDED we do not lose our faith in Him and become unbelievers i.e. become atheist like Hymenaeus and Alexander who shipwrecked their faith and were handed over to Satan. (1 Tim 1:20)

A Christian will continue in the faith, but someone who pretends they are a Christian will not.

So are you someone who believes in grace plus works to keep you save or do you believe in "Salvation by faith alone" as is written in your signature.

Our position in Christ, and our practice in Christ, are different aspects of our Christian life.

 

[mailmandan]

Their end is worse than before they turned to Christ.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(2Pe 2:20 KJV)

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

 

[PS]

well think if you had the truth of the word, and the hope of salvation in your grasp. and you let it go because your faith was not their..

and then you have an eternity to think about it, Yeah, that would be worse.

That would be awful.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That would be awful.

that to me would be the worse punishment ever.. and it helps me understand exactly what was being said about those who knew it, then walked away, It will be more severe, much more

 

[TruthTalk]

that to me would be the worse punishment ever.. and it helps me understand exactly what was being said about those who knew it, then walked away, It will be more severe, much more

Hi E-grateful, "continue in the faith", means to remain settled an steadfast in the foundation which was laid by Jesus Christ, and not be drawn away by false teachers. For someone who is pretending to be a Christian it will be difficult to remain steadfast and sure in the faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi E-grateful, "continue in the faith", means to remain settled an steadfast in the foundation which was laid by Jesus Christ, and not be drawn away by false teachers. For someone who is pretending to be a Christian it will be difficult to remain steadfast and sure in the faith.

to me it would be impossible. A dog returns to his vomit, well. because he is a dog (unsaved)

 

[PS]

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:26 KJV)

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, [they knew Christ and were saved] they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [that was saved] is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed [returns] to her wallowing in the mire.
(2Pe 2:20-22 KJV)

Timothy, and please do not tell me Timothy was never saved, was warned by Paul about the possibility of backsliding,
Timothy, you are like a son to me. What I am telling you to do agrees with the prophecies that were told about you in the past. I want you to remember those prophecies and fight the good fight of faith. Continue to trust in God and do what you know is right. Some people have not done this, and their faith is now in ruins.
(1Ti 1:18-19 ERV)

Neither must we say we cannot fall away, because we are told it is impossible to be brought back to repentance.
Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

This is why Paul told us to run the race continually while we press towards the mark.

Time for some shut-eye.

 

[PS]

Hi E-grateful, "continue in the faith", means to remain settled an steadfast in the foundation which was laid by Jesus Christ, and not be drawn away by false teachers. For someone who is pretending to be a Christian it will be difficult to remain steadfast and sure in the faith.

To "continue in the faith" means we already have faith. We cannot continue in something we do not have.

 

[mailmandan]

Correct, provided, "you continue in your faith."

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
(Colossians 1:21-23)

The problem is not with God, heaven forbid, He will keep us safe and secure in the palm of his hand, PROVIDED we do not lose our faith in Him and become unbelievers i.e. become atheist like Hymenaeus and Alexander who shipwrecked their faith and were handed over to Satan. (1 Tim 1:20)

In Colossians 1:23, the word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith."

That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the Greek particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians whose shallow, temporary belief withers away?

It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.

Just as we read in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vainand worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe).

We don't see the specific words, "lost salvation" in the context of 1 Timothy 1:19. Also, in 1 Timothy 1:20, we read - Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. Now where have we heard that before?

*In 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, we read about a man who has committed sexual immorality by having his father's wife (does that sound like shipwrecked faith? Was it permanent?), yet verse 5 says deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. If Hymenaeus and Alexander were truly saved, then how do we know the outcome was not the same for them as it was the adulterer in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 who later repented in 2 Corinthians chapter 2? Nothing is mentioned about him "losing his salvation" either.

 

[PS]

A Christian will continue in the faith, but someone who pretends they are a Christian will not.

So are you someone who believes in grace plus works to keep you save or do you believe in "Salvation by faith alone" as is written in your signature.

Our position in Christ, and our practice in Christ, are different aspects of our Christian life.

Salvation is by faith alone. Works (my witness for example) are the evidence of my faith.

 

[mailmandan]

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:26 KJV)

In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, [they knew Christ and were saved]

The text does not say they "knew Christ in a saving sense and were saved." That is your assumption and preconceived belief. Once again, having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. *Notice also that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [that was saved] is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed [returns] to her wallowing in the mire.

(2Pe 2:20-22 KJV)

They received the "knowledge" of the truth, but there was no heart submission to the truth. Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. *The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Timothy, and please do not tell me Timothy was never saved, was warned by Paul about the possibility of backsliding,
Timothy, you are like a son to me. What I am telling you to do agrees with the prophecies that were told about you in the past. I want you to remember those prophecies and fight the good fight of faith. Continue to trust in God and do what you know is right. Some people have not done this, and their faith is now in ruins.(1Ti 1:18-19 ERV)

See post #64,415.

Neither must we say we cannot fall away, because we are told it is impossible to be brought back to repentance.
Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Be sure to read verse 9 - But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning YOU, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." NOWHERE does the Bible use the words "lost salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: "IF a believer were to fall away.." The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew them again to repentance. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption.

In Matthew 26:31, we read - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' 32 But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee." 33 Peter answered him, "Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away."

Hmm.. we see that the remaining 11 disciples did "fall away," but it was only temporary and nothing was said about them losing their salvation.

This is why Paul told us to run the race continually while we press towards the mark.

Salvation is a gift, not a prize. Read the context.

Time for some shut-eye.

Good night.

 

[PS]

A Christian will continue in the faith, but someone who pretends they are a Christian will not.

So are you someone who believes in grace plus works to keep you save or do you believe in "Salvation by faith alone" as is written in your signature.

Our position in Christ, and our practice in Christ, are different aspects of our Christian life.

I have just read your post again and if I may, let me confirm that we do not need to keep working at our salvation in order to remain saved, our salvation is for all time. Rest assured of that.

The only thing we need to guard against is that we do not turn 180 degrees away from God by committing apostasy which means to recant.

Do a study on apostasy: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/apostasy-apostate/

 

[TruthTalk]

To "continue in the faith" means we already have faith. We cannot continue in something we do not have.

I do not believe a true believer grounded in the faith will ever not remain steadfast in the faith. Your words sound as if you believe a person can "lose" their eternal salvation, is that correct.

 

[benhur]

Excellent! Yes! That is precisely what they've been arguing in every thread they enter.

Did you ever watch the Charlton Heston classic, Ben Hur? Judah bin Hur, Judah, of the house of (meaning of bin) Hur, was not a Christian.

So what if Benhur was not a Christian to start the movie, but certainly was becoming a Christian at the end.