Oh goody another OSAS thread!
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Please stop misrepresenting what I post.
I have never represented self righteousness.
I have given scripture after scripture to validate the obedience of faith.
Example:
And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22
Key: For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”
God spoke to this woman's heart, to reveal to her, how to be healed, in which she now has faith from God speaking to her.
When she obeyed and touched the hem of His garment, she was healed.
Here obedience activated the faith she had when God spoke to her, and produced the intended divine result.
If she had stayed where she was, and didn't obey to touch the hem of His garment, her faith would have remained dormant or dead, and unable to produce the intended result of healing.
JPT
I have never represented self righteousness.
I have given scripture after scripture to validate the obedience of faith.
Example:
And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22
Key: For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”
God spoke to this woman's heart, to reveal to her, how to be healed, in which she now has faith from God speaking to her.
- a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment.
When she obeyed and touched the hem of His garment, she was healed.
Here obedience activated the faith she had when God spoke to her, and produced the intended divine result.
If she had stayed where she was, and didn't obey to touch the hem of His garment, her faith would have remained dormant or dead, and unable to produce the intended result of healing.
JPT
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You can be humble, without being disobedient.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29
- all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
JPT
J
Yes, Jesus lost none of the Apostles, which is the context, except Judas.
Do you believe His sheep can become lost?
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7
- I have found my sheep which was lost!’
Do you see what a sheep who becomes lost is?
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
A sheep who wanders away from the Shepherd, and becomes lost, has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance.
Lost = Sinner in need of repentance - spiritually dead to God
Found = Reconciled to God - spiritually alive to God
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”
Luke 15:32
READ THE BIBLE.
JPT
J
Well the Pharisees did supposedly good but their "heart" was far from God/Jesus,no denying there are times where we'll "slack" in serving but even then when Jesus calls we answer if we are his,other times we are to continue leading others to him in our daily lives when we have opportunity,I mean seriously if "disobedience" was greater than Jesus's works and sacrifice we all wouldn't have any salvation.
The one consistent thing you OSAS folks promote is your opinion with no scripture.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29
JPT
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29
- all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
JPT
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What is once saved here? if it means saved from the power of sin then I agree (read Ephesians 2:1-5)
you will always be saved (from the power of sin) if you always live by the Words of God in the Bible by not doing the works of the flesh as mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 and instead denying yourself (Luke 9:23)
but if the once saved here mean that you're saved from eternal damnation, then it is not true.
you must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12) work out means you need an effort to do it.
You will receive your eternal life either you were caught up to the clouds to be with Jesus forever (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) or you were one of those resurrected in the 1st resurrection of the dead to be with Jesus forever and you and our Lord will rule the world for 1,000 years.
you will always be saved (from the power of sin) if you always live by the Words of God in the Bible by not doing the works of the flesh as mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 and instead denying yourself (Luke 9:23)
but if the once saved here mean that you're saved from eternal damnation, then it is not true.
you must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12) work out means you need an effort to do it.
You will receive your eternal life either you were caught up to the clouds to be with Jesus forever (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) or you were one of those resurrected in the 1st resurrection of the dead to be with Jesus forever and you and our Lord will rule the world for 1,000 years.
Faith is the root of salvation and obedience/works which follow are the fruit. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.
Again, your true colors are really showing. Apparently, you interpret "justified by works" to mean saved by works. James 2:14-24 has to be some of the most misunderstand verses in the Bible and are a favorite of works-salvationists.
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works of obedience could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works Christians do which "fall outside" of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?
*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law of Moses, you cannot dissect good works/works of obedience from the law of Moses and works of obedience are good works and if we were saved by works, then these works would earn a wage, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law of Moses/works that earn a wage/good works) but saved by "those" works (works of obedience) argument is bogus. Your premise is completely flawed and sounds similar to what Roman Catholicism teaches. Other works-salvationists also teach your flawed premise. Here is a statement below from another works-salvationist that I was in a previous discussion with about faith and works:
"It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us." - This is absolutely false. Jesus doesn't need our help. His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24)
*In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."
Refusing to believe the gospel and teaching salvation by works is disobedience (Romans 3:22-28; 10:16). Preaching your perverted gospel is not obedience. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *If you can't get this right, then you have a much bigger problem than worrying about whether or not a genuine, born again Christian can lose their salvation. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
Faith is belief, trust, reliance and obedience which follows is works and we are not saved by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5).
Romans 10:17.
Works do not activate faith and works are not the source of life in faith either. We are made alive in Christ FIRST by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5) then UNTO good works (Ephesians 2:10). Works are not the origin of faith. You put the cart before the horse.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. It DEMONSTRATES that it's dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
l The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).
1. Which church do you attend?
2. If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your EXACT ANSWER?
Again, your true colors are really showing. Apparently, you interpret "justified by works" to mean saved by works. James 2:14-24 has to be some of the most misunderstand verses in the Bible and are a favorite of works-salvationists.
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works of obedience could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works Christians do which "fall outside" of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?
*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law of Moses, you cannot dissect good works/works of obedience from the law of Moses and works of obedience are good works and if we were saved by works, then these works would earn a wage, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law of Moses/works that earn a wage/good works) but saved by "those" works (works of obedience) argument is bogus. Your premise is completely flawed and sounds similar to what Roman Catholicism teaches. Other works-salvationists also teach your flawed premise. Here is a statement below from another works-salvationist that I was in a previous discussion with about faith and works:
"It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us." - This is absolutely false. Jesus doesn't need our help. His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24)
*In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."
Refusing to believe the gospel and teaching salvation by works is disobedience (Romans 3:22-28; 10:16). Preaching your perverted gospel is not obedience. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *If you can't get this right, then you have a much bigger problem than worrying about whether or not a genuine, born again Christian can lose their salvation. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
Faith is belief, trust, reliance and obedience which follows is works and we are not saved by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5).
Romans 10:17.
Works do not activate faith and works are not the source of life in faith either. We are made alive in Christ FIRST by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5) then UNTO good works (Ephesians 2:10). Works are not the origin of faith. You put the cart before the horse.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. It DEMONSTRATES that it's dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
l The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).
- The obvious answer is God and I already explained the obedience of faith/obedience to the faith to you in post #391 and again in post #413, (and it doesn't mean that we are saved through faith + obedience/works) but unfortunately, I can see the truth that I shared with you just went right over your head and there is a reason for that which is completely obvious now.
1. Which church do you attend?
2. If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your EXACT ANSWER?
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He confuses the command of obedience which saves all people (obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel - Romans 1:16; 10:16) with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow and are produced "out of" faith. Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works is certainly not the obedience of faith. It's disobedience and unbelief.
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