Predestination or free will?

calibob · May 30, 2018

I've received an appropriate number of responses about my gay bashing post but it was mostly about gays, the second paragraph questioned predestination. I was not being sarcastic when I admitted I don't understand it. Predestination, free will or both, I want to know. The only text I have I have trusted over biblical matters is the bible, (usually NIV) and it isn't clear to me. Can it be both? Please respond. CaliBob

JaumeJ · May 30, 2018

calibob said:

It has always been my understanding that we are free to choose Jesus Christ, God.

Yes, there is a reference t our being foreknown by God, but this is not a reference to being foreknown before creation, no, it is a reference to the instant we know Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior by the Holy Spirit.

At that precise moment we are sealed, and thus foreknown before o9ur Lord's great and glorious Day to which we all look forward to.

It would make no sense at all to be "predestined " to salvation yet be taught to pray for all souls to be sae.............Barring demons incarnate, all who will come to Jesus Christ will be saved...

AngelFrog · May 30, 2018

JaumeJ said:

God is omniscient, eternally knowledgeable, aware, within all that is his creation. No thing that exists was created by other than Holy God.

Ephesians 1:4
For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

Romans 9:15-18
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Seedz · May 30, 2018

Romans 9 makes it seem like there isn't much that we can do as far as what God decides to do with us.

AngelFrog · May 30, 2018

Seedz said:

That chapter refers to God's sovereign choice. Great reference.

Seedz · May 30, 2018

AngelFrog said:

Exactly, God can do as he pleases with anybody. We are to not question God. Also, some of us are for honorable use and some of us for dishonorable.....

It is just the way it is.

AngelFrog · May 30, 2018

Seedz said:

Yes indeed. All serves God's divine will and purpose and plan. All is of God. Isaiah 45:7

trofimus · May 30, 2018

Read "Theodicy" by G.W. Leibniz

Nehemiah6 · May 30, 2018

Seedz said:

Romans 9 is frequently misinterpreted and misapplied to suggest that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation. That is false teaching. So let's look at some of the things mentioned.

1. The election of Isaac over Ishmael -- Isaac was the son of Abraham and Sarah and his birth was supernatural (in that they were well past child-bearing age). In contrast, Ishmael was the son of Hagar. So Isaac was the child of promise, and thus elected to continue the line of Abraham. This has nothing to do with election for salvation.

2. The election of Jacob over Esau -- In His divine foreknowledge, God knew that even though Jacob was a supplanter and a deceiver, he would be a man of faith. At the same time God saw that Esau would not be a man of faith, and would indeed become the enemy of Jacob (and Edom the enemy of Israel). So Jacob was elected to continue the line of Abraham. Again this has nothing to do with election for salvation.

3. The hardening of Pharaoh's heart -- This is frequently presented as election of damnation while ignoring how and why God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Even before Moses was born, Pharaoh CHOSE to become the enemy of Israel and God. Nonetheless, God gave him multiple opportunities to repent, but he continued to harden his heart. So eventually God hardened his heart.

God does not harden hearts arbitrarily, but gives all sinners several opportunities to repent. The book of Jonah is a good example. And God pleads with sinners in Scripture -- today if you will hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS.

4. Romans 9:15-16 -- For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This passage is used to teach that God chooses some for salvation and others for damnation. But all it reveals is that God is sovereign in every way, and that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works ("him that willeth" and "him that runneth") lest any man should boast. Whenever this passage is presented, we need to immediately go to John 3:16,17 to see that God desires the salvation of ALL HUMANITY.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

seed_time_harvest · May 30, 2018

calibob said:

Joshua 24:15
King James Version(KJV)

15.)And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

oldhermit · May 30, 2018

calibob said:

Scripture talks about predestination in a number of places. Clearly there were things that were predestined, or if you prefer, preordained by the Lord but, one thing God has NOT preordained is who will or will not be saved. This is an idea that many force onto passages such as Romans 9.

reneweddaybyday · May 30, 2018

According to 1 Timothy 2:4, God's preference is all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

According to Ezekiel 33:11, God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.

According to Matt 25:41, the everlasting fire was not prepared for man, but was prepared for the devil and his angels. The devil has enticed men and women and, according to Isaiah 5:14, hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure ... he that rejoiceth shall descend into it.

God has made clear to us that He is God, the Creator of the heaven and the earth and all that is therein. God calls to each and every one of us to turn to Him. When God calls to us, what is our response? Do we turn to Him? Or do we love the pleasures of this life and turn away from Him? Tell Him "no thanks, not interested"?

When we tell Him "no thanks, not interested" and He allows us to walk further and further away from Him, why do we then blame Him for the choices we make?

We cannot have it both ways and we have got to come to the realization that life is not a game. It is absolutely imperative that we not reject Him when He comes calling on us. But we find that some people don't want to follow Him because they might miss out on some sort of worldly pleasure. Sad that we do not know thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore (Psalm 16:11).

Personally, I believe that when God covered Adam and Eve way back in Genesis 3:21, He also covered all their progeny. All sin of mankind was covered in that one act of covering Adam and Eve.

However, we resist His truth in unrighteousness and continue in darkness as we step further and further away from Him. And He allows us to walk away from Him, even after He calls and calls and calls out to us. Pretty sad ...

NayborBear · May 30, 2018

Seedz said:

Do you "test" the spirits (voices), thoughts, or ideas that come in between your ears? To determine that they are indeed OF God? Or, do you just not question any of this? Do you try, or strive to "bring unto Christ", any of those things I listed above?

shrume · May 30, 2018

oldhermit said:

Yes.

Jesus Christ was predestined to come.

Christianity was predestined (but not individual Christians). Anyone who hears the gospel can freely choose to believe it, and become a member of the church of the body of Christ (Rom 10:9-17).

maxwel · May 30, 2018

reneweddaybyday said:

So you believe everyone's sin is already dealt with by God, and that essentially all of mankind is perfectly safe from judgement, and so everyone will go to heaven?

Crustyone · May 30, 2018

There is no reason why both free will and destiny cannot exist together in God's creation. God had to create all forms of intelligence to allow every form to have the opportunity to be saved. Knowing how these intelligences would react to the various situations they were presented with, he knew when he created them who would be saved and who would not be. Don't be fooled into thinking that he couldn't do this. Knowing who would live for him and who would not, he doesn't need to direct their every step to have them do what he knows they will do, so they have free will to do as they wish. They will just do what God expects them to do. The bible indicates that there will be times when some will be prodded into action earlier than they might otherwise have done the deed. Generally we have free will to choose our destiny, but God already knows what that choice and therefore our destiny will be.

shrume · May 30, 2018

Crustyone said:

Two contradictory things cannot both be true. Either God predetermined (predestined) some people to be saved and some to go to hell, or He didn't.

What are "intelligences"?

I do not believe that is true. If we do have free will (I believe we do..), it is not possible to know ahead of time every decision we as free will beings will make before those decisions are made. God knows us intimately, and He is an excellent predictor, but that does not mean He knows everything everyone will ever do. (I know that many here consider that heresy. So be it..)

Not always:

Jer 19:
5) They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Absolutely true.

I do not believe that is true.

Deade · May 30, 2018

Yes, we have to choose God. Predestination only means that God knows the future and how we choose.

reneweddaybyday · May 30, 2018

maxwel said:

I believe sin was covered at the time Adam and Eve were covered. However, when God comes a-knockin' on our hearts, what is our response? Do we allow Him in and live as He directs in His Word? Or do we reject Him and live any ole way we please?

If we reject, then that hell which has enlarged herself (Is 5:14) will include not only the devil and his angels (for whom hell was prepared), but also mankind (those who reject God when He calls).

calibob · May 30, 2018

Crustyone said:

There is no reason why both free will and destiny cannot exist together in God's creation. God had to create all forms of intelligence to allow every form to have the opportunity to be saved. Knowing how these intelligences would react to the various situations they were presented with, he knew when he created them who would be saved and who would not be. Don't be fooled into thinking that he couldn't do this. Knowing who would live for him and who would not, he doesn't need to direct their every step to have them do what he knows they will do, so they have free will to do as they wish. They will just do what God expects them to do. The bible indicates that there will be times when some will be prodded into action earlier than they might otherwise have done the deed. Generally we have free will to choose our destiny, but God already knows what that choice and therefore our destiny will be.

That was the most logical reply I've gotten so far, thanks Cali Bob

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