"OSAS Proven"

[Saint]

Alright I understand I came off wrong forgive me, let me show you scripture and then you could show me Scripture. I read your reasoning on the Scripture you did provide however I believe those are explainable if you want me to explain biblical I can. Just give me the verse and I will. Here are my "OSAS" Scriptures I think the bibles clear Salvation isnt something you can earn so its not something you can walk away from.

(John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
(Jude 1:1) JUDE, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
(John 10:27-28) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(1 Corinthians 3:13-15) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
This above Verse is clear that remaining Faithful is about recieving a Reward thats finishing the race nothing to do with loosing your Salvation at all. It's clear that if any mans works be burned he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be SAVED. Thats clear as Crystal.
(John 6:47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Tell me is this just one Verse like you said? Am I pulling this out of Context does this not match up with John 3:16? I think so. This says who ever believes "HAS" Everlasting life not MAY HAVE.
(1 Corinthians 1:8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Romans 8:38-39) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Ephesians 4:30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(Jude 1:24) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
(James 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
How could you say Salvation isnt based on what Jesus did for you saving you by grace but instead say that Salvation is based on you keeping it? Rather then it being a Gift its in your hands to wether or not you keep it? Your making Salvation seem like its something you did when you didnt! Thats Blasphemy in its self!

I know that some have already answered these, but I would like to try as well.

(John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

I agree with this verse, because I know that God will never cast us away, He loves us too much. To fall away is not to be cast away from God, but to walk away from God, like the prodigal son.

(Jude 1:1) JUDE, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

I agree with this one as well, we are preserved in Christ, but again, if we walk away, we are no longer preserved.

(John 10:27-28) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Let's look at the sheep in Luke 15:1-10. No one plucked the sheep from the shepherd in this passage, but the sheep did walk away.

(1 Corinthians 3:13-15) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Two verses after that, Paul writes that if we defile God's temple, ourselves, God will destroy us. Actually, the fact that we can defile ourselves is proof of concept.

(John 6:47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Tell me is this just one Verse like you said? Am I pulling this out of Context does this not match up with John 3:16? I think so. This says who ever believes "HAS" Everlasting life not MAY HAVE.

Yes, you are right, if we believe in God, we have everlasting life. But let's look at other parts of the Bible, like 1 John 2:4, if you do not obey the commandments of God, you don't even know Him. How can you truly believe in someone you do not know?

(1 Corinthians 1:8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

To confirm is not the same as to keep from judgment. And considering that this particular passage is talking about spiritual gifts, I believe that this verse is talking about keeping ourselves strong in our gifts, not keep us saved regardless of what sins we commit.

(Romans 8:38-39) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

well, let's look at some scripture: Jesus loves everyone, including sinners (unsaved) and we can find that fact in Romans 5:8. Just because He loves us, that doesn't mean we love Him, or that we won't leave Him, or that we will be saved.

(Ephesians 4:30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Surrounding that verse is an entire section about how to continue to live a holy life and how we should not return to our past of sinning. How can we return to sin if we can't fall? This verses is telling us that we shouldn't make the Holy Spirit regretful (as the people in Noah's time did) by going back to sin.

(Jude 1:24) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

The four verses before this one are about maintaining your relationship with God. How can we not maintain it if OSAS is true? Also, this verse doesn't prove anything except that Jesus will provide a way for you to get out of temptation as 1 Corinthians 10:13 says. This doesn't mean that you will not fall, but that God will keep you from being overwhelmed.

(James 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
I do not understand how this is supposed to prove OSAS correct.

How could you say Salvation isnt based on what Jesus did for you saving you by grace but instead say that Salvation is based on you keeping it? Rather then it being a Gift its in your hands to wether or not you keep it? Your making Salvation seem like its something you did when you didnt! Thats Blasphemy in its self!

By this logic, we can say that sinners are saved too, because if salvation has nothing to do with what we do or choose, then there is no point in asking God into our hears anyways. Also, Romans 10:9, when it says what we must do in order to be saved, would be a lie. And when James 2 says that faith without WORKS is dead, it's lying as well.

 

[Saint]

Hi Saint,

Thats was a good post and lucid, when I write it all comes out back to front.. Doesnt mean I agree with you tho

Just out of interest regarding Galatians, Paul never said they were not saved, they were being deceived and 'deserting' the Faith for as we know they where listening to the Judaizers who insisted on a works based Christianity. Anyhow, knowhere does it say they where no longer christians, yes they had been seduced by the Judaizers (this was a plague of Pauls), but Paul, warns them and exhorts them to stay on the right path, and this is a warning to us to stay on the path. If you read closely and carefully, nowhere does it say they lost their salvation??

There is a big difference, this is a great warning to us all not to listen to false teachers and exhortation to stay fighting and contending for the Faith.. Paul then call them brothers in verse 11.

We have to bare in mind that this is the fledgling gentile church, where all these things are being experienced, and we still experience them some still follow false teachers and teachings, but I would not go as far as to say they are not saved! and neither did Paul, but he did give them a heartily warning to stay in truth and not to listen to false teachers as they where being decieved.

And God will give warnings in this modern time to his children also if they start to wain or slide.

Blessings

Phil

Thank you for your compliment, but you just agreed with me that Christians can fall off the right path. Now, I must disagree with you, though, about it not talking about salvation. Because even though the people who he was talking to were saved, he was warning them about the possiblility of becoming unsaved. This is how I know: It warns against becoming estranged from Christ. Now, let's look at the definition for estranged:

1.
to turn away in feeling or affection; make unfriendly or hostile; alienate the affections of: Their quarrel estranged the two friends.
2. to remove to or keep at a distance: The necessity for traveling on business has estranged him from his family.

3. to divert from the original use or possessor.


So, whoever he was talking to not only can fall from grace, but either became unfriendly/hostile towards Christ, was removed or kept at a distance from Christ, or was diverted from Christ. All of those definitions are the definitions of becoming unsaved.

Saint

"We should'nt be childish in our response" why not? Seems every other person calls oneness/ Pentecostals unkind names I beleive in what goes around comes Round...

Matthew 5:11 says "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

but 1 Peter 3:9 says Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Saint

"We should'nt be childish in our response" why not? Seems every other person calls oneness/ Pentecostals unkind names I beleive in what goes around comes Round...

Perhaps, but considering the history of the Old Testament, do you really want to be the one who delivers what comes around?

 

[Ricke]

Phil 36
That was my point Phil. I am not only a Oneness Preacher, I also am a Ordained Minister in An Apostolic/ Pentecostal Church. UPCI beleives what we beleive as well, we are an Independent congregation which teach the same First Century Church Apostolic teachings of The Original Apostles.

I. Do not get upset about people who do not beleive what I and millions of others beleive. Everybody one day will have to stand before The Lord and find out if we got it right.

What bothers me, and please forgive for being a little smart aleckly is the personal attacks on Oneness Pentecostals by several here. How would you or anyone here like to have their particular church maligned and spat upon?

I came out of a mainline Christian Religion, that some on here belong to. I could unload a wagon on them if I wanted to, but it would be uncalled for. Let's stick strictly to scripture and save the cheap shots shall we?

Just because you do not personally beleive in something, does'nt necessarily mean it's false no matter or how long the opposite beleif has been in existence. It's only false if it can be proven beyond any shadow of a doubt. Nobody here I have read has proven their point on Trinity. Just sayin' Phil.

Let's stop the personal attacks on churches or certain beleifs in those churches UNLESS the Church we are discussing is indeed a proven Cult, proven by scripture, not by "He said/ They said"

Just remember this; when you character assassinate a Christian Church you are personally attacking people on here who are in that Church, and their Church Family in that Church. I love everyone here, not here to start arguments, here to teach and yes Learn. When a Christian tells me they "know everything" I feel sorry and pray for them.

Just pray for one another is best for all...God Bless you.

 

[phil36]

Phil 36
That was my point Phil. I am not only a Oneness Preacher, I also am a Ordained Minister in An Apostolic/ Pentecostal Church. UPCI beleives what we beleive as well, we are an Independent congregation which teach the same First Century Church Apostolic teachings of The Original Apostles.

I. Do not get upset about people who do not beleive what I and millions of others beleive. Everybody one day will have to stand before The Lord and find out if we got it right.

What bothers me, and please forgive for being a little smart aleckly is the personal attacks on Oneness Pentecostals by several here. How would you or anyone here like to have their particular church maligned and spat upon?

I came out of a mainline Christian Religion, that some on here belong to. I could unload a wagon on them if I wanted to, but it would be uncalled for. Let's stick strictly to scripture and save the cheap shots shall we?

Just because you do not personally beleive in something, does'nt necessarily mean it's false no matter or how long the opposite beleif has been in existence. It's only false if it can be proven beyond any shadow of a doubt. Nobody here I have read has proven their point on Trinity. Just sayin' Phil.

Let's stop the personal attacks on churches or certain beleifs in those churches UNLESS the Church we are discussing is indeed a proven Cult, proven by scripture, not by "He said/ They said"

Just remember this; when you character assassinate a Christian Church you are personally attacking people on here who are in that Church, and their Church Family in that Church. I love everyone here, not here to start arguments, here to teach and yes Learn. When a Christian tells me they "know everything" I feel sorry and pray for them.

Just pray for one another is best for all...God Bless you.

Hi Riche,

It does not matter how you dress it up, even with the smartest of clothes, beneath is still heresy.

If you believe heresy, which by the way you seem to do then you follow heresy, the worst part is if you actually deny the truth of God, the God of Scripture, then you are a wilfull heretic, many millions may believe what you do but sadly they have been deceived by the heresy that YOU TEACH, the Apostle Paul had some very straight to the point words for false preachers like yourself..'Anathema'

Again I will say, If you deny the one triune God of Scripture with full knowledge then you are a heretic, and that shoe fits you!
Again you are being like Distinctive, going for soft soap talk and sympathy, I also love everyone, sometimes that is a hard thing to do. But, your soft soaping won't work with me. you follow a false doctrine. the God you serve is not the God of Scripture! that is how simple it is.

By the way you do not follow the teachings of the apostles as you claim, this heresy came after the apostles and was delt with in the 2nd century!

Matthew 7:22-23 (English Standard Version)

22( On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

And for all who want to know the heresy these guys preach and when it started, just rea the post here:: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/14285-trinity-vs-oneness-15.html#post358409

 

[Saint]

why is there an argument about the trinity on an OSAS thread? this is way off topic.

 

[Consumed]

i know this is off topic, yet when one addresses a Pastor one would be wise to honor them regardless instead of hurling stones at them, they are Gods ordained.

David tore a strip off sauls robe and God convicted his heart, why, honor leadership regardless, David could have hurled stones even with his sling, even had oppurtunity to kill him,David didnt, he honored God by honoring Saul.

Just a thought for us all to keep in mind. And if someone wants to bring up those who agree with ordaining homosexual pastors etc blatant false teachings, we know that this is not Gods Word, just pray for them

we are OSAS if our heart does not condemn us and we abide in His vine, LOVE, , not empty words, then we have confidence and assurance that we are in right standing with God, only God knows the heart of a man, not man

 

[phil36]

I think you are missing the point consumed of a 'discussion board'???? I would say a Pastor is only a Pastor if he isteaching God's word, there are many conmen out there who actually need praying for and spoke against.

If others are espousing false teachings then aswell as pray we need to speak the truth, sometimes this truth will hurt, but better to hurt and bring back into the fold than see them fall further and worse take others with them.

Those who preach heresy, are preachers of doom for those who are deceived by them.. and not to be molly cuddled after. but stern rebuke out of love. we learn that with Pauls example to the Galatians and Corinthians.

Lets have a quick look at how false teachers are described in Scripture:

Jesus:

Matthew 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.”

Matthew 23:31, 35 “So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. . . so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.” [In this instance Jesus did not need to name the false teachers as He was face to face with them and calling them out publicly in the temple square.]

Paul:

2 Corinthians 11:13 “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.”

2 Timothy 2:17-18 “And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymeneus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.”

2 Timothy 4:14 “Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds.”

Peter:

2 Peter 2:1 “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.”

2 Peter 2:15-16a “Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; but he received a rebuke for his own transgression…”

John:

1 John 4:1 “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”

3 John:9-10 “I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.”

Likewise, the early church Fathers were so committed to the public rebuke of false teachers that they actually named heresies after the false teachers who promoted them (i.e., “Arianism” after Arius, “Pelagianism” after Pelagius, etc.).

By the way I agree with your osas statement

Blessings

Phil

 

[Consumed]

no brother , i dont think im missing the example David set, he didnt judge, he left that to God and God alone the way i read it. I respect your view, i dont have to subscribe to it and if i dont im still not condemned in my heart i am in right standing with God

they you for agreeing with my view on OSAS -

God bless

 

[Saint]

so do you (any of you) believe that once we become saved then we do not need to worry about sinning anymore?

 

[Mulehide]

so do you (any of you) believe that once we become saved then we do not need to worry about sinning anymore?

OSAS does not equal saved sinless or a lisence to sin. Those who would view it that way likely were not truly saved to start with. Part of salvation is repentance...a change in direction.

As a child, when I disoyed my parents, that fellowship was broken. It was restored when I asked for forgiveness and was then granted forgivenss. Never though did I stop being their child. As a child of God, when I go against God, fellowship is broken. I no longer have that sweet communion with God until I ask His forgivess. Never though do I stop being His child.

 

[Consumed]

so do you (any of you) believe that once we become saved then we do not need to worry about sinning anymore?

once we accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour His Spirit is at work in us, challenging us with gentleness and love to do not the things we ought not do. We may struggle in areas, even fall short, yet He has paid the penalty for us in full, we know that we are not condemned and that by His grace and righteousness He will not stop that which He has started in us, as long as we seek Him, the things of this world fall away that hinder our relationship. For some it may well be a process, for others in a quickening, God has all in His hand. If we do not abide in His Word then that is an act of will yet He is still faithful in accomplishing what He has started without holding it against one, just means a desert life as shown us in the old testament, we don't enter into His rest and if we still resist we fall deeper into the ways of this world yet He is merciful to bring one back to repentance.

Doesn't mean a license is given to sin and just claim its ok, takes an active part in working with and obeying the prompting of the holy spirit within us to die to ourself,

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Son 2:15 Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes.

abide in the vine

 

[Saint]

OSAS does not equal saved sinless or a lisence to sin. Those who would view it that way likely were not truly saved to start with. Part of salvation is repentance...a change in direction.

As a child, when I disoyed my parents, that fellowship was broken. It was restored when I asked for forgiveness and was then granted forgivenss. Never though did I stop being their child. As a child of God, when I go against God, fellowship is broken. I no longer have that sweet communion with God until I ask His forgivess. Never though do I stop being His child.

that wasn't what I was trying to ask, I was referring to the perfect part of the thread, making sure I understood what they were talking about before I continue.

once we accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour His Spirit is at work in us, challenging us with gentleness and love to do not the things we ought not do. We may struggle in areas, even fall short, yet He has paid the penalty for us in full, we know that we are not condemned and that by His grace and righteousness He will not stop that which He has started in us, as long as we seek Him, the things of this world fall away that hinder our relationship. For some it may well be a process, for others in a quickening, God has all in His hand. If we do not abide in His Word then that is an act of will yet He is still faithful in accomplishing what He has started without holding it against one, just means a desert life as shown us in the old testament, we don't enter into His rest and if we still resist we fall deeper into the ways of this world yet He is merciful to bring one back to repentance.

Doesn't mean a license is given to sin and just claim its ok, takes an active part in working with and obeying the prompting of the holy spirit within us to die to ourself,

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Son 2:15 Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes.

abide in the vine

Just to clarify, does this mean that you believe that you can (reasonably) become perfect by walking in the Spirit? or does it mean that you will be less tempted or less easily deceived/fall to temptation?

I'm just making sure before I continue

Thank you in advance.

 

[Ricke]

Phil 36
I read your post regarding your constant character assassination on me for my beleifs. I will take the high road, and pray for you. Unless God opens your heart or mind, you will never understand it anyway. Let's just leave it there and move on..Lord Bless You....

 

[phil36]

Phil 36
I read your post regarding your constant character assassination on me for my beleifs. I will take the high road, and pray for you. Unless God opens your heart or mind, you will never understand it anyway. Let's just leave it there and move on..Lord Bless You....

Hi Ricke,

I cannot help the fact that you follow and teach a heresy from the 2nd century. I believe the God of scripture, and I pray that the veil that deceives you as has for countless since the 2nd century be lifted, may you come to realize the personhood and Godhood of Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

God Bless

Phil

 

[Consumed]

we walk by faith not sight , faith that He has given us the power to overcome if we stand on His promise and abide in the vine He is faithful to deliver us from everything we face regardless. His righteousness His Grace

 

[phil36]

we walk by faith not sight , faith that He has given us the power to overcome if we stand on His promise and abide in the vine He is faithful to deliver us from everything we face regardless. His righteousness His Grace

I love that consumed also a Faith that is not a blind leap in the dark, we can know our God personally, praise be to our righteous and Holy God.
blessings

Phil

 

[mpaper345]

The Bible says a person born of God cannot sin,and a Spirit led life will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.

If someone is led of the Spirit they will behave like Jesus for a Spirit led life will not sin.

Paul said if he did not abstain from sin he would be a castaway.

The Bible says that a person who claims the name of Christ has to depart from sin which they can do by the Holy Spirit.

God said be holy as I am holy.

The problem is some people are saved but then let sin creep back in their life and do not repent and lose out on salvation.

That is why Jesus said not all who call Him Lord Lord shall make it to heaven but only those who do the will of the Father which is to be like Christ led by the Spirit.The Bible says they were before Jesus and said did not we do many works in your name,and Jesus depart from Me you workers of iniquity.

Some people are saved and repent of their sins and mean it but later on go back to sinning and lose out on salvation.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling(Philippians 2:12).

The Bible says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling which means the person has to participate in their salvation by making sure they want to be led of the Holy Spirit to live the lifestyle to receive eternal life.

The Holy Spirit will not lead you unless you want to be led of the Holy Spirit.If you have sin in your life you are saying you do not want the Spirit to lead you.

Some people are saved in the truth but then go back to sin and lose out on salvation which Jesus said not all who say Lord Lord shall enter in to the kingdom of heaven.

If it were once saved always saved the Bible would not say work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for there would not be any reason to fear and tremble concerning your salvation.

The truth it is once saved always saved if you are saved in the truth and do not go back to sin,not you can have sin in your life and still be saved.You are always saved as long as you do right working out your salvation with fear and trembling,keeping yourself right with God but some miss the mark.

The truth is I have seen many hypocrites of people who believe once saved always saved but their lifestyle was not in line with being able to receive salvation but they still believed they were saved,but Jesus said they shall have their portion with the hypocrites there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

A hypocrite is someone who claims to be with Christ but does not abstain from sin by the Spirit which I have seen many hypocrites but they still think they are saved but Jesus said they are not saved.

So how is that doctrine any good if hypocrites say they are alright when they are not.

The Bible says if you think that you stand take heed lest you fall because some people who think they are alright will get relaxed in their walk with God and will not make it to heaven.

Because of that doctrine once saved always saved it has produced many hypocrites because they have become relaxed in their walk with God thinking they cannot fall.

Multitudes of hypocrites come from that doctrine and it is a dangerous doctrine causing people not to live right because they think they are alright and do not live up to the lifestyle that they are supposed to live.

Matt

 

[Ricke]

Matt;

Amen and Amen Brother, well said. Glory to God.

 

[Saint]

The Bible says a person born of God cannot sin,and a Spirit led life will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.

If someone is led of the Spirit they will behave like Jesus for a Spirit led life will not sin.

So Paul was not saved?