Baptism and holy spirit

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shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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...Acts 2 tells us what the purpose of tongues was.
No it doesn't. Acts 2 tells us that the various groups of people gathered at Jerusalem for Pentecost heard the apostles speaking the wonderful works of God. In Acts 10, Peter and the Jews with him heard Cornelius and his family speak in tongues and magnify God. Speaking the wonderful works of God and magnifying God is not teaching the gospel. It is glorifying God.

In 1 Cor 14 there are several things listed that say what tongues is good for.

1) It is the Christian speaking TO God (1 Cor 14:2).
2) it edifies the person speaking (1 Cor 14:4).
3) when interpreted, it edifies the church (1 Cor 14:5).
4) it is praying in the spirit (1 Cor 14:14-15).
5) it is giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:16-17).

Also, Jude 20:
20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

"Praying in the Holy Ghost" is "praying in the Spirit", speaking in tongues.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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That quote was in response to Shrume's statement "It has nothing to do with spreading the gospel. It is not a witnessing tool." Which is the only part of the paragraph I also had slight disagreement with, because of the potentential exception(s).

Speaking in tongues (the unknown kind) generally isn't spoken to man. One exception perhaps being (as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14) when it is to be spoken to the hearing of the church at a time when God is providing an interpreter.

Secondly, and speaking as someone who has (unknown) tongues, I can say that I wouldn't be able to tell if God had the syllables add up to Dutch, Swahili, Africaans or most any other language. If he did that, it would be what I understand to be "diversities of tongues" which means speaking in diverse (different) earthly languages...without having learned them...and could be used to bear "witness" to the wonderful acts of God. That's what I think was happening on the day of Pentecost once the multi-lingual crowd gathered.

From the speakers' points of view, they were still speaking in (unknown) tongues while under the power/unction of the Holy Ghost. But if God were filling their mouths with the multiple languages of the crowd, only the hearers would perceive this. Thus "speaking in tongues" would be kinda be being used as a witnessing tool. But, as Shrume is trying to highlight, those are not the primary purposes of speaking in tongues.

NOTE: Any time speaking in tongues is used in either "diversities of tongues" or for the purpose of interpretation, it becomes equal in purpose to that of prophecy....Edification of the CHURCH rather than it's primary purpose of edification of the SPEAKER only.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
There are not different kinds of speaking in tongues. There is one manifestation of speaking in tongues. It's primary use is in a Christian's individual prayer life. In meetings, whenever a person speaks in tongues out loud, it must be interpreted so the church can be edified (1 Cor 14:5). If the person does not plan to interpret, he should keep quiet, and pray in tongues to himself, and to God (1 Cor 14:28).
 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
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Life would be so much simpler if we studied the Bible searching for God's intent(exegesis) instead of our own(eisegesis).
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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"Praying in the Spirit" is speaking in tongues.
This isn't true. Yes, it can happen, but it's not the rule.

Can you give an example where praying in the spirit is not speaking in tongues?

1 Corinthians 14:10-19 (NLT2)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] There are many different languages in the world, and every language has meaning. [SUP]11 [/SUP] But if I don’t understand a language, I will be a foreigner to someone who speaks it, and the one who speaks it will be a foreigner to me. [SUP]12 [/SUP] And the same is true for you. Since you are so eager to have the special abilities the Spirit gives, seek those that will strengthen the whole church. [SUP]13 [/SUP] So anyone who speaks in tongues should pray also for the ability to interpret what has been said. [SUP]14 [/SUP] For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying. [SUP]15 [/SUP] Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand. [SUP]16 [/SUP] For if you praise God only in the spirit, how can those who don’t understand you praise God along with you? How can they join you in giving thanks when they don’t understand what you are saying? [SUP]17 [/SUP] You will be giving thanks very well, but it won’t strengthen the people who hear you. [SUP]18 [/SUP] I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you. [SUP]19 [/SUP] But in a church meeting I would rather speak five understandable words to help others than ten thousand words in an unknown language.
This does not prove that praying in the spirit is not speaking in tongues.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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One of the reasons there's so much division over the baptism in the Holy Spirit is the attitudes of those who claim to have it.

What was the reasons you sought after it?

I remember seeing some seek it because they wanted to fit in. They wanted so bad to be part of this "special group". The results would be having a feeling of superiority, resulting in a superiority complex. Such a person didn't have it at all, but merely thought they did. Their attitudes stink, & so does their fruits.

Others sought for the Baptism in the HS because they were hooked on a feeling. They were taught this by the actions of others in the church who were having euphoric experiences during worship. Those such as Bethel Fellowship & Hillsong churches worship God for the "feeling" they get when they're in church. To them, worship is all about "me", & getting others to feel like I do.

Most of their "spiritual ministry" is about euphoria & getting others to experience it. Their claim is they are edifying one another with this feeling they get. But that's not true ministry.

To edify someone is to "build them up", making them a better, more mature christian. Things such as:

  • strengthening their faith
  • imparting biblical knowledge
  • aiding their understanding of themselves & their needs
  • praying for their healing, spiritual deliverance, for peace, for power for service to the Lord.

A true Spirit-filled church will be made of the right stuff to be God's servant to the world, not creating an atmosphere of euphoria & self-importance.
Some of us seek to speak in tongues because God wants us to (1 Cor 14:5).
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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It would seem you are confused to what and who the sign of tongues points towards .
I'm not confused at all, garee.

Not the believer and there is no such thing as self edification .
1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Jude
20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

What could it produce other then pride?
Many things. When a person speaks in tongues, he is speaking to God, he is edifying himself (and when interpreted, the church is edified), he is giving thanks well, he is praying in the spirit.

Tongues as to its purpose took away the sin of pride.
I do not understand what you are trying to say.

No such thing as a sign gift or what some call charismatic.
I do not know what a "sign gift" is. I do know what the manifestation of speaking in tongues is. I absolutely do believe in the manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit, and that God wants us to use them.

No sign other than the sign of Jonas will be given and it has already been fulfilled in Christ .Jesus said it a evil generation (natural man) that does seek after the things seen. signs. Who would seek after something they already think they have.
What do you do with this, garee?

1 Cor 12:
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

All saints die not receiving the promise of our new incorruptible bodies that will replace these bodies of death
Not sure how that relates to the topic, but OK..

We walk by faith the eternal the unseen, not after signs as that seen the temporal .
I believe that God wants Christians to speak in tongues. I understand that you think differently.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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One of the reasons there's so much division over the baptism in the Holy Spirit is the attitudes of those who claim to have it.

What was the reasons you sought after it?

I remember seeing some seek it because they wanted to fit in. They wanted so bad to be part of this "special group". The results would be having a feeling of superiority, resulting in a superiority complex. Such a person didn't have it at all, but merely thought they did. Their attitudes stink, & so does their fruits.

Others sought for the Baptism in the HS because they were hooked on a feeling. They were taught this by the actions of others in the church who were having euphoric experiences during worship. Those such as Bethel Fellowship & Hillsong churches worship God for the "feeling" they get when they're in church. To them, worship is all about "me", & getting others to feel like I do.

Most of their "spiritual ministry" is about euphoria & getting others to experience it. Their claim is they are edifying one another with this feeling they get. But that's not true ministry.

To edify someone is to "build them up", making them a better, more mature christian. Things such as:

  • strengthening their faith
  • imparting biblical knowledge
  • aiding their understanding of themselves & their needs
  • praying for their healing, spiritual deliverance, for peace, for power for service to the Lord.

A true Spirit-filled church will be made of the right stuff to be God's servant to the world, not creating an atmosphere of euphoria & self-importance.
Your 4th paragraph really grabbed me and this is why. After I first met God and received the Spirit, I had a physical feeling I'd never experienced before. It was intense and involved goosebumps from head to toe and it felt sort of like warm waves flowing over me in whooshes that came and ebbed and came and ebbed.

I went to the only person I'd ever heard even remotely mention Gods' name at all in my family. I told him about these waves and goosebumps and he knew exactly what I was talking about because he got them too. This is the part I still laugh about today. I asked him: what is it?? He shrugged and said: it's...just God. Why I laugh about my question to him is because manna means: what is it? So in the desert, when they received the manna that fell from heaven, when they said: it is manna, what they were literally saying was: it's...umm...what is it? And I can picture them picking it up, touching and feeling it, rolling it around in their hands and saying: I think it's...umm...hmm...what is it? Literally, it is this: It's what is it?

So it's just funny that when I received the Manna from heaven/the bread from heaven/Baptism with the Holy Ghost, I asked the same exact thing the Israelites asked!

Now, I craved that feeling so much. It was very pleasurable. I discovered that when I listened to music about God and Jesus, I could gorge on that feeling. Waves and waves of it over and over again. But at some point, it felt...like I was doing something unseemly, though I couldn't figure out what. About the same time, He disappeared from me in my senses. I couldn't sense Him this way. I panicked and thought He had left me and that I'd done something to upset Him.

I went through a very dark place in it. I was just wrecked, man. And then a day or two later, He returned to my senses. But then began a series of times where I couldn't feel Him in that way and then I could and then I couldn't. And praise Him, He put a book in my hands that helped me in it and He also gave me some understanding of the spirit of some verses like, if you are a man given to appetite, put a knife to your throat when dining at the kings table (my paraphrase).

So I came to see that He was weaning me. That He was putting me on the true Fast, in spirit. That He wanted me to stop going by my sense of feel and to start learning to go by trust/faith instead. So when my senses/flesh shrieked that He had abandoned me, I began to put that flesh under and say: no, He will never leave me - He promised. And no matter what it feels like, He is doing good for me and to me.

It was kind of like when a mother goes into the bathroom and closes the door for some privacy and the toddler shrieks and shrieks outside the door until it is opened because he panics when he can't see mom and have immediate caresses from her...

So...your 4th paragraph really got me because I do believe this happens with tongues too. That it can become as disorderly and abused as kids hopped up on sugar running around and bouncing off of walls because of the sugar high. And even if it remains orderly, it can become eating unworthily at the kings table. You use a knife and fork and manners when you grow up. You don't just shove gobs and gobs of dessert into your mouth until you're high.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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This can kind of be seen by His creation. When a man and a woman commune in secret, He made it to show forth His glory, because He made everything to show His glory. And the man and woman go into their room and commune but they don't gorge themselves in an unseemly manner, over and over. Even the private communion between man and wife shows His glory and shows of our communion with God. He calls Himself our husband and we His bride.
 
J

JB2018

Guest
I understood praying in the Holy Spirit to be also praying through the Holy Spirit in English, not just necessarily in tongues.

Great response though,
D
Praying in the spirit is praying in tongues. However, it’s not just limited to tongues. A person can moan and groan and that’s also praying in the spirit.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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Praying in the spirit is praying in tongues. However, it’s not just limited to tongues. A person can moan and groan and that’s also praying in the spirit.
Where does the Bible define moaning and groaning as praying in the Spirit?
 
J

JB2018

Guest
The Holy Spirit being given to you IS when you are Baptized...

The church has a sacrament (a ritual) that is a beautiful picture that speaks of this Baptism by the Holy Spirit in which we receive the Holy Spirit from Him. It's the water baptism.

There have been some men who say they experienced both at the same exact time.
Some people will be baptized then receive the holy spirit. However, some people have to wait for the promise. It's not an automatic thing....
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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The question is: who is "the Spirit" in that verse? I submit that it is talking about Jesus. He is the one who intercedes for us (1 Tim 2:5). He is referred to as "the Spirit" in several places in the Bible: Acts 2:4; 10:19; Romans 8:16, 26, 27; 2 Corinthians 3:17, 18; Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 14:13; 22:17.

Rom 8: (ESV)
26) Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

I believe that Jesus prays so fervently for us that at times words fail to encompass what he wants to say.

Groaning and moaning, in and of themselves, are not "praying in the Spirit".

That's my opinion, anyway. :)
 
J

JB2018

Guest
One thing I do know is that God gives out his spirit freely, it's a promise, and by faith you can receive it. Everyone who is water baptized may or may not receive the gift after they come out the water. And to know if someone has the spirit of God or not then their will be tongues to prove it. However, you might want to be careful with this because there are demonic tongues out there....
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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Some people will be baptized then receive the holy spirit. However, some people have to wait for the promise. It's not an automatic thing....
People receive the gift of the holy spirit the instant they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

The only ones who had to "wait for the promise" were the twelve, before the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:4). That's because the gift of the Holy Spirit that we have today was not available before the day of Pentecost.

John 7:
39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
 
J

JB2018

Guest
The question is: who is "the Spirit" in that verse? I submit that it is talking about Jesus. He is the one who intercedes for us (1 Tim 2:5). He is referred to as "the Spirit" in several places in the Bible: Acts 2:4; 10:19; Romans 8:16, 26, 27; 2 Corinthians 3:17, 18; Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 14:13; 22:17.

Rom 8: (ESV)
26) Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

I believe that Jesus prays so fervently for us that at times words fail to encompass what he wants to say.

Groaning and moaning, in and of themselves, are not "praying in the Spirit".

That's my opinion, anyway. :)
This is referring to the holy spirit. It's evident in scripture. Paul clearly states that we do not know what to pray for so the spirit makes intercession with groaning. If we do not know what to pray for how can we pray? If the spirit lives inside of us, he will do it. Also a capital "s" refers to the spirit of God and a lowercase "s" refers to our human spirit. In Romans 8:26, there is an uppercase "s" ...believe when I say that its praying in the spirit lol

https://rurecovery.com/groaning-prayer-pray-part-4/
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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One thing I do know is that God gives out his spirit freely, it's a promise, and by faith you can receive it. Everyone who is water baptized may or may not receive the gift after they come out the water. And to know if someone has the spirit of God or not then their will be tongues to prove it.
Not necessarily. There are many, probably most, Christians born of the Holy Spirit who have never spoken in tongues.

However, you might want to be careful with this because there are demonic tongues out there....
Speaking in tongues is never demonic.

That said, someone could become possessed and be forced to speak in a language they don't know. But that's not speaking in tongues.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
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This is referring to the holy spirit. It's evident in scripture. Paul clearly states that we do not know what to pray for so the spirit makes intercession with groaning. If we do not know what to pray for how can we pray? If the spirit lives inside of us, he will do it. Also a capital "s" refers to the spirit of God and a lowercase "s" refers to our human spirit. In Romans 8:26, there is an uppercase "s" ...believe when I say that its praying in the spirit lol
The capitalization of words in the Bible is done at the decision of the translator.

Sorry, I cannot agree with much of what that article says. An example:
An Old Testament example, of course, would be Hannah, she was in so much agony, and groaning in prayer for a child that the priest thought she was drunk.
The Bible never says she was groaning.

11) And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.

12) And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth.

13) Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.

14) And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee.

Hannah was praying to herself, Eli only saw her lips move. For some unfathomable reason, he thought she was drunk.
 
J

JB2018

Guest
Not necessarily. There are many, probably most, Christians born of the Holy Spirit who have never spoken in tongues.


Speaking in tongues is never demonic.


That said, someone could become possessed and be forced to speak in a language they don't know. But that's not speaking in tongues.


If they never speak in tongues, then how can they build up their most holy faith? Also, do not be ignorant of the kingdom of darkness. Demons love to copy God. Think about it. They can do signs and wonders too (antichrist will do the same thing and they're not of God) . And, they can definitely speak in a counterfeit tongue.......google search it. If you're bold enough, watch a video of it on YouTube.
 
J

JB2018

Guest
The capitalization of words in the Bible is done at the decision of the translator.


Sorry, I cannot agree with much of what that article says. An example:

The Bible never says she was groaning.

11) And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.

12) And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth.

13) Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.

14) And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee.

Hannah was praying to herself, Eli only saw her lips move. For some unfathomable reason, he thought she was drunk.

Urgh, you do not understand the types of prayers She groaned in her spirit. She wept bitterly. You need to ask God to give you revelations of the scripture.