Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Closer than you have ever been. NOW if you can just believe, YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE {something you can NEVER earn and do not deserve}, the moment you genuinely BELIEVE, {the instant that the HOLY SPIRIT came into to your heart, and poured GOD's Love into your HEART}. It is that GODLY LOVE that WILL Always produce Love for GOD and the Brethren, and LOVE for GOD is defined as a Willing Hearts that WANTS to OBEY the LORD. AND when we fail, we willing want to confess is as sin. Thus obedience is PART OF OUR LOVE, including Receiving HIM as LORD of our life.


Philippians 1:6 (NCV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] God began doing a good work {born again} in you, and I am sure HE will continue it until it is finished when Jesus Christ comes again.


1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they did not belong to us {because they never were born again}; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.


John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep{Because of the NEW NATURE in the born again human spirit, which the Holy Spirit birthed into our HEARTS along with GOD's LOVE.} My commands.


If you can Believe all of that, YOU HAVE ARRIVED AT THE TRUTH.


Jesus had both non-born again, and those who were born again following HIM. What happened to the NON-BORN AGAIN FOLLOWERS.


Matthew 4:25 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Large crowds followed Him from Galilee, Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.


John 6:66-67 (NCV)
[SUP]66 [/SUP] After Jesus said this, many of his followers left him and stopped following him.
[SUP]67 [/SUP] Jesus asked the twelve followers,“Do you want to leave, too?“


I believe that Receiving HIM as LORD and MASTER, is the entrance to the NARROW GATE.


Matthew 7:13-14 (NCV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter through the narrow gate. The gate is wide and the road is wide that leads to hell, and many people enter through that gate.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to true life. Only a few people find that road.
I see that you conveniently chose the NCV as your translation of choice for this scripture, (John 6:66) because it used 'followers', instead of 'discples'.
Most of the translations use 'disciples' and not 'followers'. I come away from this scripture knowing that disciples can fall away and be lost. That means to me that they are either saved and lose their salvation, or they are not saved until they are baptized. What do you think?

Teach and baptize (Matthew 28:19-20). Whoever, of those that are taught, believes and is baptized, shall be saved
(Mark 16:16). Perfect fit.

We have always been close, if you were to acknowledge the good works component of having faith, which the bible teaches, we would be there. We are not that far apart.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS​

Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
----------

romans 3

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
------------

Romans 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

-------------

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

------------

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

------------------

Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

___________

we are saved by grace through faith....


and when we (born again sons and daughters of God)
are judged

we will also be judged by the same standard as EVERYONE

the difference between the saved
and unsaved

is the unsaved have their own righteousness that they will be judged by

those covered by the sacrifice of Jesus will be judged by His in regards to salvation...

-------------------


TO ALL WHO BELIEVE​

Acts 13:39
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses

-----------

John 3:15-17
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

--------------


BEING BORN FROM ABOVE PRODUCES SONS, NOT PRETENDERS WHO STOP BELIEVING​



hebrews 10


35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
_____________


john 6


28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

___________


1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us



i wonder what those who believe their works will help save them will say when they stand before God?


oh wait

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



because they trust in their own righteousness
seeking to eatablish themself

they do not submit to the righteousness of Jesus

they were NEVER born again and He never imputed His righteousness to them

so they are still considered workers of iniquity having sin on their record


romans-9
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Romans 10:3
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
I see that you conveniently chose the NCV as your translation of choice for this scripture, (John 6:66) because it used 'followers', instead of 'discples'.
Most of the translations use 'disciples' and not 'followers'. I come away from this scripture knowing that disciples can fall away and be lost. That means to me that they are either saved and lose their salvation, or they are not saved until they are baptized. What do you think?

Teach and baptize (Matthew 28:19-20). Whoever, of those that are taught, believes and is baptized, shall be saved
(Mark 16:16). Perfect fit.

We have always been close, if you were to acknowledge the good works component of having faith, which the bible teaches, we would be there. We are not that far apart.
Baptized by the Holy spirit..., not water.

Jesus wasn't baptized with water until he was 30.

Does that mean He wasn't God's Son until then?
.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS​

Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
----------

romans 3

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
------------

Romans 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

-------------

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

------------

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

------------------

Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

___________

we are saved by grace through faith....


and when we (born again sons and daughters of God)
are judged

we will also be judged by the same standard as EVERYONE

the difference between the saved
and unsaved

is the unsaved have their own righteousness that they will be judged by

those covered by the sacrifice of Jesus will be judged by His in regards to salvation...

-------------------


TO ALL WHO BELIEVE​

Acts 13:39
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses

-----------

John 3:15-17
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

--------------


BEING BORN FROM ABOVE PRODUCES SONS, NOT PRETENDERS WHO STOP BELIEVING​



hebrews 10


35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
_____________


john 6


28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

___________


1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us



i wonder what those who believe their works will help save them will say when they stand before God?


oh wait

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



because they trust in their own righteousness
seeking to eatablish themself

they do not submit to the righteousness of Jesus

they were NEVER born again and He never imputed His righteousness to them

so they are still considered workers of iniquity having sin on their record


romans-9
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Romans 10:3
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God
john 6

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
-

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
I disagree about using the heart. The bible in Jeramiah states:

Jerimiah 17 NIV
9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?
The Bible also says "create in me a clean heart"

Yes the heart of man is wicked but I believe God is able to cleanse and that is part of salvation.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
The saving process is a lifelong process of believing in Jesus and observing the things that he has commanded us to observe, and enduring to the end.
And finally when you are resurrected in your perfect body of flesh and bone and spirit, you will come to know that you are saved or not. No automatic pass to eternal life.
That's really sad.,,, I agree salvation is a life long process. However the Holy spirit testifies on our hearts if we are children of God or not. If you don't have that blessed assurance, if you don't have God's agape love In your heart...then there is a problem. How can you share God's love and acceptance with others if you have never experienced it yourself?

If you don't even know if you are saved or not,what kind of gospel are you preaching?

How is it any different than the rest of the world's religions?

The Holy Spirit is not of fear but of love, power and a sound mind.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
It says to trust God and that God will search people's hearts...perhaps if you read it in context it might help?

Jeremiah 17

5Thus says the LORD:
“Cursed is the man who trusts in man
and makes flesh his strength,a
whose heart turns away from the LORD.
6He is like a shrub in the desert,
and shall not see any good come.
He shall dwell in the parched places of the wilderness,
in an uninhabited salt land.

7“Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD,
whose trust is the LORD.
8He is like a tree planted by water,
that sends out its roots by the stream,
and does not fear when heat comes,
for its leaves remain green,
and is not anxious in the year of drought,
for it does not cease to bear fruit.”

9The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
10“I the LORD search the heart
and test the mind,b
to give every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his deeds.”

11Like the partridge that gathers a brood that she did not hatch,
so is he who gets riches but not by justice;
in the midst of his days they will leave him,
and at his end he will be a fool.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
yes i am serious,

either your interpitation of acts is in error, or paul is in error, peter did not make a mistake, if you interpret him correctly he does not contradict paul at sll.
If I interpret Peter the way you interpret Peter, then he does not contradict with Paul at all. Well you would be right about that, but it would be difficult to interpret the words of the Peter in any way other than the way I interpret Peter. Let's try:
In Acts 2, Peter was asked by men who believed what he said about Jesus, and they asked Peter what should they do. This is what Peter told them to do.
1) Repent
2) be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
3) and ye shall receive the gift of the HG

How do you teach this verse in your church Sunday School? Do you tell people that Peter was drunk and wasn't thinking clear? Because this is pretty straight forward wording, tough to misinterpret, unless you have a theology that does not agree.

Do you have a theology which disagrees with what Peter in the bible has told us? Doesn't your theology say that the gift of the HS is given first by God and then if you wish you can get baptized whenever? And why does one need to repent if the HS has washed over your body?

I can see where your theology would have major differences with what Peter said, but the act of interpreting what Peter said is not a problem, and is not difficult. So do you even teach this verse in your Sunday School classes, or do you go around it because it is rather embarrasing altogether to talk about it?

I knew a minister from New York that told me he would like to rip that scripture out of the bible because it caused so much confusion. Why so much confusion: because it disagreed with what he believed in. How bout that?

So my interpretation of Peter is the same as yours, but your theology is different than Peters and more like Pauls, that is the conflict, not me vs Paul, or Peter vs Paul, but your theology vs Peter, and vs Jesus for that matter, and even lots of Paul.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
I believe God calls out people from every nation and every religion to form His Body here on earth and our spirits are joined as one in earth and in Heaven.

So I do believe in the church universal and that we are His hands and feet here on Earth....but it's off topic and we can discuss it all in another thread at another time.

Just wondering about the whole creed thing.

I have issues when people elevate their understanding of the Bible over God and His Holy spirit. Yes we can use the Bible to test the Spirit but they is why God tells us of the fruit.
The very use of the word churches and the fact that it is inspired in the plural form negates one universal church on the planet.

The very nature of the church and it being a LOCAL, visible body of believers negates one universal church on the planet.

The bible is clear....each local, visible assembly is a autonomous body of believers with Jesus as the head, they are individual in number, characteristics, stance before Jesus yet all with equal power, right and authority before the throne of God. The individual church letters written to all of the churches represented in the New Testament also bears out this truth.

Peter compares EACH assembly unto an individual body with Christ as the head.

Having said that, there is ONE body of believers in heaven.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Not even comparable....my boast is in Christ and the assurance of eternal life by grace through faith......not in how Good I am compared to others....you should learn the difference before you put your foot in your mouth again!
No, your boast is in your high minded philosophy in Jesus vs the plenteous in number religionists on the other hand who are living a farce. As I said, not quite Pharisee, but similar.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
you were way off when you said

"Fruits are the result of words and action."

good fruits are a result of God working in His children

these fruits being in His children will manifest themself before men through words and actions



a brother/sister in Christ helping an elderly with their groceries is not a fruit


it is an action/work/deed

the fruit would be love (what God has worked in His child through His spirit and the new heart He gave to His child)

the action would be helping the elderly

neither of these save

keep saved

or prove anything to God who already knows who is His and who is not



this same brother/sister before being saved may have had 0 good works

then after he was saved

he didnt need to help that elderly with their groceries to remain saved

God is already aware who has and does not have a genuine faith

but He chastens His own

He encourages them too
and
builds them up unto good works
Amen the fruits of THE SPIRIT <---NOT our works......what can one expect from a religionist that emphasizes works, religious creeds and religion.........nothing biblical at the end of the day....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
No, your boast is in your high minded philosophy in Jesus vs the plenteous in number religionists on the other hand who are living a farce. As I said, not quite Pharisee, but similar.
Another post of ignorance from a religionist who waters down the blood and places emphasis upon self by pushing works....try again pal....I 100% point to Christ, his work, his power and his promises....and the fact that you say what you say proves that you cannot read, do not understand English and or completely dishonest with everything I have posted on the subject......ALL honest, regardless of disagreement can see I fully point to CHRIST......your just another deceiver....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
Baptized by the Holy spirit..., not water.

Jesus wasn't baptized with water until he was 30.

Does that mean He wasn't God's Son until then?
.

Watch him tap dance or do the jig like a guy in the back woods with a banjo and a mason jar full of juice........I have stated this numerous times and they always tap dance around it with some flippant answer to explain it away.....

I say....was he born the Son of God by the SPIRIT (LUKE) or by water immersion.....the answer is obvious.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS​


Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
----------

romans 3

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
------------

Romans 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

-------------

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

------------

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

------------------

Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

___________

we are saved by grace through faith....


and when we (born again sons and daughters of God)
are judged

we will also be judged by the same standard as EVERYONE

the difference between the saved
and unsaved

is the unsaved have their own righteousness that they will be judged by

those covered by the sacrifice of Jesus will be judged by His in regards to salvation...

-------------------


TO ALL WHO BELIEVE​


Acts 13:39
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses

-----------

John 3:15-17
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

--------------


BEING BORN FROM ABOVE PRODUCES SONS, NOT PRETENDERS WHO STOP BELIEVING​




hebrews 10


35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
_____________


john 6


28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

___________


1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us



i wonder what those who believe their works will help save them will say when they stand before God?


oh wait

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



because they trust in their own righteousness
seeking to eatablish themself

they do not submit to the righteousness of Jesus

they were NEVER born again and He never imputed His righteousness to them

so they are still considered workers of iniquity having sin on their record


romans-9
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Romans 10:3
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NoNameMcgee again
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NoNameMcgee again
its ok brother


im more than grateful for the love in the form of reproof you have shown me when i falsely accused you



(just one of many examples)

dc to me you seem like someone who tries to justify sin and condem those who speak of repenting


if youre going to speak of salvation you should bring up the change of heart Jesus provides in those who do have faith



youre right


no amount of works will ever gain a sinner access to heaven

correct



but no one with faith is the same before and after they recieve the gift of Faith
You have been here what 9 days or so....go read every thread I have posted in and then come back bro....I have NEVER condemned one who preaches repentance pal.....nor do I EXCUSE SIN, but rather I ACKNOWLEDGE the bible's perspective on it....this thread is about salvation based upon faith void of works....NOT A THREAD ON SIN AND REPENTANCE....
i read your words, you appear how you appear

you personally were sooooooo offended i mentioned repentance you didnt clearly read my words and claimed i had a belief i never had when i stated before hand those werent my beliefs.... if you did it to me i wouldnt be surprised if u did it to many...

i dont need to pull it up


maybe i was the ONLY one

but cmon man "cake taker?"

notice i was trying to manipulate the situation to get the moral high ground

mixing in truth but not OF truth


he was who showed good fruit here

not me

just because i was repeating the word

"repent"

doesnt mean i was who was speaking for God here
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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The very use of the word churches and the fact that it is inspired in the plural form negates one universal church on the planet.

The very nature of the church and it being a LOCAL, visible body of believers negates one universal church on the planet.

The bible is clear....each local, visible assembly is a autonomous body of believers with Jesus as the head, they are individual in number, characteristics, stance before Jesus yet all with equal power, right and authority before the throne of God. The individual church letters written to all of the churches represented in the New Testament also bears out this truth.

Peter compares EACH assembly unto an individual body with Christ as the head.

Having said that, there is ONE body of believers in heaven.
Well said, there is no universal church, it is pure fiction, no truth in this at all,
as you have clearly stated.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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So, since you want to discriminate, between lost unbelievers, and the ones who truly believe, HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN THE PRETEND BELIEVER, WANTS TO GET BAPTIZED ? ? ?


More Evidence that WATER BAPTISM DOES NOT SAVE, and it is SPIRITUAL BAPTISM THE DOES SAVE.


These are the one that I am Talking about:


Matthew 7:21-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘
I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
Jesus was not talking about fake believers. He was talking about knowingly non-believers. Even fake believers, believe they believe in Jesus. Jesus was talking about those that knowingly don't believe in Jesus. Fake believers will get baptized, but those that knowingly reject Jesus will not.

Can't you fake a baptism of the spirit? Can't you believe you have had a baptism of the spirit, but you really didn't?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Jesus was not talking about fake believers. He was talking about knowingly non-believers. Even fake believers, believe they believe in Jesus. Jesus was talking about those that knowingly don't believe in Jesus. Fake believers will get baptized, but those that knowingly reject Jesus will not.

Can't you fake a baptism of the spirit? Can't you believe you have had a baptism of the spirit, but you really didn't?
No you can't.

You can lie to yourself about it, but you can't lie to God.

Agape love that forgives and cleanse and empowers you to acts of compassion and mercy that you would never do on your own...that is just one of the things the Holy spirit does when He enters and lives in a born again believers life.

I am beginning to wonder if you have even a hint of what I am talking about.

If you have ever experienced it, you would know you could never fake it.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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I see that you conveniently chose the NCV as your translation of choice for this scripture, (John 6:66) because it used 'followers', instead of 'discples'.
Most of the translations use 'disciples' and not 'followers'. I come away from this scripture knowing that disciples can fall away and be lost. That means to me that they are either saved and lose their salvation, or they are not saved until they are baptized. What do you think?

Teach and baptize (Matthew 28:19-20). Whoever, of those that are taught, believes and is baptized, shall be saved
(Mark 16:16). Perfect fit.

We have always been close, if you were to acknowledge the good works component of having faith, which the bible teaches, we would be there. We are not that far apart.
Here is John 6:64 to 71 in both NIV and AMPC. I use these 2 translations most of the time. NIV is a modern translation and AMPC includes the multiple meanings of words. I also believe in putting words in context so the longer quote.

John 6 NIV
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)


John 6 AMPC
64 But [still] some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. For Jesus knew from the first who did not believe and had no faith and who would betray Him and be false to Him.
65 And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.
66 After this, many of His disciples drew back (returned to their old associations) and no longer accompanied Him.
67 Jesus said to the Twelve, Will you also go away? [And do you too desire to leave Me?]
68 Simon Peter answered, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words (the message) of eternal life.
69 And we have learned to believe and trust, and [more] we have come to know [surely] that You are the Holy One of God, the Christ (the Anointed One), the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And [yet] one of you is a devil (of the evil one and a false accuser).
71 He was speaking of Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, for he was about to betray Him, [although] he was one of the Twelve.