Loss of salvation.
- Thread starter BillG
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Ralph-
Guest
I suppose if 'sheep' and 'goat' were figurative you'd have a point. But as it is, it is figurative, not literal. We don't become literal sheep when we get saved that somehow we can't now be changed into a goat.
Yes, THEY were not of them. If this meant everyone who goes out was never really saved to begin with then John could not tell the believers who remain to let the truth remain in them.
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:19,24
To be saved, and to continue to be saved, you must let the word by which you were saved remain in you. That is how you continue in the Father and the Son in salvation.
Besides, what a horrible doctrine of security once saved always saved perseverance is. You can't know that you are truly believing and are saved until your life is over and you have exhausted all opportunities to leave and expose yourself as being one who never really believed. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of peace and security and assurance????
But in simple Biblical security, you know that you are indeed fully saved and ready to meet Christ when he returns by if you are presently believing. And you know you that your belief is genuine by your changing life. That is the Bible version of security and assurance. Keep believing, don't let the word of the gospel slip from your heart. You will continue to abide in the Father and the Son if you do that.
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Ariel82
Guest
The concept is, would God ever take His holy spirit from one of His children?
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Ralph-
Guest
As I've shown, John tells saved believers to abide (continue) in the word which will cause them to abide (continue) in the Father and the Son. So apparently, one does lose the Holy Spirit (through whom we dwell in the body of the Son) if/when they deny the gospel of Christ and no longer believe and retain the word of the gospel.
I know it will get shouted down as being 'old Testament, old Testament!', but Ezekiel 10 (I forget) speaks of the Holy Spirit leaving the Temple because of idolatry in the Temple. (Think spiritually, people.)
God told the Israelites that he would never leave or forsake them UNLESS THEY DENIED HIM AND TURNED TO FALSE GODS. You can't confess Allah to save your neck on the chopping block and think you're still going to be good with Christ when you meet him face to face. Not gonna happen. You can not deny him and expect him to not deny you at the resurrection.
Some of you are thinking, 'real Christians won't deny him'. Oh? Then why all the warnings to believers to not deny him?
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Ralph-
Guest
Well I guess you agree with my point then, because I don't know how anybody can read Scripture and not understand that when Jesus is speaking about sheep here it IS analogous to His Children:
[h=1]John 10:27 New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT="]27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
This much I have come to understand about you and others who believe you can lose your salvation. YOU CAN !!!
MYSELF, and other believers of eternal security CANNOT lose our salvation because we KNOW the One who holds it and are KNOWN by Him!![/FONT]
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Ralph-
Guest
CORRECTION: "I suppose if 'sheep' and 'goat' were LITERAL you'd have a point.
My bad.
Now you may respond appropriately to my post, PennEd.
We're aren't literally sheep or goats that somehow we can't change from being a sheep to a goat (I mean, after all, we changed from a goat into a sheep when we first believed).
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Ralph-
Guest
And so out the window goes your doctrine. We can lose it, but you can't.
Who said we don't believe in eternal security? We believe that you are eternally secure if are presently, right now, believing in Jesus Christ-no if's, and's, or but's about it. What's so hard to understand about that?
As I pointed out, your doctrine is not secure at all. You can't even know you're really saved in the first place. The test isn't over to see if you won't fall away (showing yourself to be really saved) until you die. How is that having the security of your salvation? It isn't, of course. Did you know that even Calvinism (where your doctrine comes from) said the elect can not really know they are of the elect until they die?
In the Old Testament it was indeed possible to lose your salvation. Jesus said if a man isn't born again, there is no way he can see the kingdom. If we read Luke 16:22-23, we find out that OT saints went to Abraham's bosom, not to heaven. So nobody in Old Testament was born again yet. Hope that makes sense to you. God bless
There is no such thing as stopping to believe. A person has a new heart when he gets saved. Romans 10:10
While I agree with your last sentence brother,, but his sheep is the Nation of Israel during jacob's trouble, not the body of Christ
1 Corintians 3:14-15 should proof a lot.
"[FONT="]If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.[/FONT] [FONT="]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
We see, there are two groups in the Body of Christ. Those whose bear lots of fruit and those who don't. According to people who believe in conditional security, those who ended up with a burned work also ended up in hell. But here it says they were saved, yet so as by fire[/FONT]
"[FONT="]If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.[/FONT] [FONT="]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
We see, there are two groups in the Body of Christ. Those whose bear lots of fruit and those who don't. According to people who believe in conditional security, those who ended up with a burned work also ended up in hell. But here it says they were saved, yet so as by fire[/FONT]
sure...but it's not a guarantee that you never will. It holds good as long as we endure in all things unto the end - the same shall be saved ! fact is that the 'possibilities of losing it (salvation)are present as long as we live.
Obviously some are OSAS and some are not...let's leave it there.
Let's just cut to the chase here. ARE YOU PRESENTLY A BORN AGAIN CHILD OF GOD? That is a definitive yes, a definitive no, or an I don't know.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
God is omnipresent, you cant leave him, he would have to leave you!
Ps 139: 7 [FONT="][FONT="]Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall fall[a] on me,”
Even the night shall be light about me;
12 Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.[/FONT]
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[FONT="][FONT="]13
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Amen, when god sealed noah in the ark, could he eacape? To go back into the world?
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
How can anyone agree with it,
the HS will never leave a person, so you would never go back to he old man, nor would you want to,
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Um they made room when they invited him in at the moment of salvation.
Salvation is not just saying a prayer, it is comming to a point and repenting and asking for mercy.