Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,020
4,439
113
Magenta,
Your clappping people post for BillG was absolutely darling. Good going, it made my day too.
It sure was.
Made my day as well.

She is clever like that.
Many times in the past she has had to post my videos for me.

I loved the racoon (and her subsequent pictures) and the dog.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
How many good works are required, Ben?
Does not matter if one does 50 million righteous works to the 50th degree....they will still bust hell wide open when they die if they have not placed their faith 100% into the work of Christ on the cross without embellishments, religious hoop jumping, attempted law keeping and or any other such activity......

The bible is clear....Eternal salvation is a free immediately possessed gift based upon grace and faith....if you embellish it in any form or fashion you turn it into a false gospel with no power to save.

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE!

THE ABOVE TRUTH IS FOOLISH TO ALL WORKERS FOR, LAWYERS, PHARISEES AND RELIGIOUS HOOP JUMPERS!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
Sorry, I am not somebody else in the past. Wrong again. Many Christians believe as I do, you do not hold a monopoly on the grace doctrine.
Hahhahahhahaha wow.......only one holds the monoply on grace.....JESUS and he loves to show it by faith and faith alone!......

In the grace you are, having been saved (past tense) OUT OF FAITH.......

IF perchance you read and believe the rest of that verse......it states clearly that it is a GIFT AND NOT BY WORKS!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,020
4,439
113
Hahhahahhahaha wow.......only one holds the monoply on grace.....JESUS and he loves to show it by faith and faith alone!......

In the grace you are, having been saved (past tense) OUT OF FAITH.......

IF perchance you read and believe the rest of that verse......it states clearly that it is a GIFT AND NOT BY WORKS!
Ooh ooh.

Just had a thought.

Monopoly is a board game which is worldwide.

Would be very interesting to see a Belivers monopoly board game.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,754
4,119
113
63
The NCV is so far biased for grace as a gift and that good works are so worthless, it contridicts the words of Christ to such a degree as to make it a dangerous translation that will lead many astray.

Paul is talking about the works of the law cannot save, it takes the grace of Christ to save. Paul speaks many times as to how important good works are to your complete salvation, but he knows that you cannot be saved just by living the works of the law. But the idea of an automatic path to eternal life by the grace of Jesus is not a true doctrine.

Salvation is a process of Jesus giving his life for your sins and for your resurrection. You must believe in Jesus and his mission and trust that his sacrifice will affect you. You also must have faith in the grace that Jesus offers you, as you give your life to him, and you do as he asks and do the good works that he has created for you to help his needy people. In fact one of the differences between the sheep and the goats was that the sheep took care of the needy, and the goats did not. So the combination of belief, faith, trust, grace, and good works is the unbiased biblical path to salvation.
Hi Ben...I am sure time and time again it has been said to you that good works will follow , good works that God has planned for us to do , but these good works have absolutely nothing to do with being saved...

Ephesians 2:8-9 [FONT=&quot]8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 not by works, so that no one can boast...

Ben , if you do not understand that Scripture , then this is why you are missing it , works follow but do not save...xox...[/FONT]
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Hi Ben...I am sure time and time again it has been said to you that good works will follow , good works that God has planned for us to do , but these good works have absolutely nothing to do with being saved...

Ephesians 2:8-9 [FONT=&quot]8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 not by works, so that no one can boast...

Ben , if you do not understand that Scripture , then this is why you are missing it , works follow but do not save...xox...[/FONT]
Matthew Chapter 13


1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

___________


amen sister

those who His incorruptible seed takes root in will produce fruit
but
its not about the number of fruit at all....

its all about being rooted in Christ


we are saved apart from works
without our works


but those who are in Christ will have works
(number = how fruitful you are not how saved you are)
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Hi BH,

This is what I read you saying.

Grace in fact is not free but earned. I have embolded my perception above.

To me the path to eternal life is as a result of the grace of God and no other mechanism.

It's grace that sets us free to walk in the works prepared for us in advance.
It's grace that causes our sins to decrease and Jesus increase.

Without faith we cannot be saved

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

The works we walk in are an expression of our love for what Jesus has done for us, not to earn anything.
If we look to earn anything then it's not free and this includes salvation.
If we conclude that works earn salvation then we need to quantify the number of works and also the quality of works.

You mention sheep and goats.
And I totally agree with you.
That addresses the quality of works, to me that is based on love.
Yet what we find with the sheep is that they say

Matthew 25:37-41


37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

They did not boast in their works or present an amount of works.
They did works because of love as a result of grace.

What verses does Paul say works are required to complete our salvation?
Scriptures that let us know that good works are important:

Ephesians 2:10 (Notice the word 'should')

2 Timothy 3:17

Titus 2:7

Titus 2:14

Titus 3:8 ...that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works, these things re good and profitable unto men. (why must we be careful to maintain good works? and why are they profitable?)

Tituz 3:14
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Hahhahahhahaha wow.......only one holds the monoply on grace.....JESUS and he loves to show it by faith and faith alone!......

In the grace you are, having been saved (past tense) OUT OF FAITH.......

IF perchance you read and believe the rest of that verse......it states clearly that it is a GIFT AND NOT BY WORKS!
Of course Jesus has a monopoly on grace. I did not say otherwise. What I said was gracers do not hold a monopoly on the 'grace doctrine'. That is different than saying gracers do not hold a monopoly on grace. We both know that Jesus holds the monopoly on grace.

Many Christian denominations have different 'grace doctrines'. Your little group on this forum is just a few people with a view on how faith and grace works in salvation, so you do not hold a monopoly on 'grace doctrine'. Hope that helps to clarify.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Hi Ben...I am sure time and time again it has been said to you that good works will follow , good works that God has planned for us to do , but these good works have absolutely nothing to do with being saved...

Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast...

Ben , if you do not understand that Scripture , then this is why you are missing it , works follow but do not save...xox...
I believe that, thank you. My only suggestion is that if good works do not follow, then you were not saved in the first place. Am I correct about that?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Matthew Chapter 13


1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

___________


amen sister

those who His incorruptible seed takes root in will produce fruit
but
its not about the number of fruit at all....

its all about being rooted in Christ


we are saved apart from works
without our works


but those who are in Christ will have works
(number = how fruitful you are not how saved you are)
Are good works being stigmatized in any of our Christian churches.

When a person gives a talk and they talk about a good work they did, is there some in the congregation that are not impressed because they are so grace bound?

Are there Christians that would not do good works just because they are so grace bound?

What is your experience. Most Christains I meet with are OK with good works, but are there groups of Christians that are not?
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
2,046
113
North Carolina
Just a note to those who believe works save us. Unbelievers do good works sometimes, even better works than believers. So, how can it be that only works save our souls?

God has a plan for His children and special works for them to accomplish, which He equips them with the ability to do so
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Are good works being stigmatized in any of our Christian churches.

When a person gives a talk and they talk about a good work they did, is there some in the congregation that are not impressed because they are so grace bound?

Are there Christians that would not do good works just because they are so grace bound?

What is your experience. Most Christains I meet with are OK with good works, but are there groups of Christians that are not?

I've never met someone who claimed to be Christian and also claimed to have an issue with good works....

sounds quite silly to me...


we are saved (before/without/separate from) good works (forever)
unto good works
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
dcon said;

Take 1 second and actually think about and ponder what this thread is about.....serious.....it is about HOW ONE IS SAVED not WHAT THEY DO AFTER THEY ARE SAVED.....it IS FAITH ALONE THAT SAVES.....end of story........!

ElAmor said:

To get this over with, i want to ask dcon “HOW IS ONE SAVED"?

the bible tells us about it this way;

Romans 10:8-18 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH, “JESUS IS LORD,” AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, YOU WILL BE SAVED. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And HOW CAN THEY BELIEVE in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear WITHOUT SOMEONE PREACHING TO THEM? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

It is clear that PREACHING is a WORK necessary for one to BELIEVE and have FAITH and therefore be SAVED.

Another thing we need to notice is that WITH THE HEART WE BELIEVE AND ARE JUSTIFIED and WITH OUR MOUTH WE CONFESS AND ARE SAVED.

Believe and confess are two different words with different meaning, the same as justified and saved.

Romans 10 clearly proves that Salvation is not through Faith ALONE.

BELIEF,, CONFESSION, REPENTANCE, PREACHING, BAPTISM, OBEDIENCE , FAITH, HOPE, LOVE, WISDOM, HOLINESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS, GOOD WORKS, SERVICE, WORSHIP ETC. ARE ALL WORKS OF SALVATION THAT THE BODY OF CHRIST POSSESS AND DO FOR THE HONOR AND GLORY AND PRAISE OF GOD OUR FATHER AND HIS ONLY SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOR.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

IF ONE CLAIMS TO HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH, (gal 3:14) AND THEN SAY THAT HIS/HER FAITH ALONE SAVED HIM/HER AND THAT WITHOUT WORKS, DOESN’T HE/SHE REJECTS AND TRAMPLES UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND INSULTS THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

Hebrews 10:28-29 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

IF THE WORKS OF GOD WHO IS LOVE (1john 4:8 & 16) THE SON WHO IS TRUTH (john 14:6) AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS THE POWER (acts 1:8) HAVE NO POWER TO SAVE AND EVEN OBEDIENCE TO THESE WORKS IS REJECTED BY SAYING THAT FAITH “ALONE” SAVES VOID OF WORKS, ARE YOU NOT A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN YOU?

1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH, just as the Father commanded us. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

EVEN DEVIL'S BELIEVE...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,460
13,399
113
58
EVEN DEVIL'S BELIEVE...
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation.

In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. *Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
1 Corinthians 12:1-31 Spiritual Gifts Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. One Body, Many Parts The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts. Love And now I will show you the most excellent way.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
A WORTHY SERVANT

“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"

Matthew 10:37-39 “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who DOES NOT take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Ephesians 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

Philippians 1:27-28 Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.

Colossians 1:10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,

Thessalonians 2:12 encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

Thessalonians 1:5-6,8,11 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you HE WILL PUNISH those who do not know God and DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS. With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you WORTHY OF HIS CALLING, and that by HIS POWER he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Revelation 3:4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for THEY ARE WORTHY.

ARE YOU “WORTHY” OF SALVATION BY CLAIMING TO HAVE A FAITH “ALONE”? ONE THAT IS VOID OF WORKS OR WHICH IS A “DEAD FAITH” ACCDG. TO JAMES.

Matthew 25:20-21,24-30 The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you ENTRUSTED me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful SERVANT! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’ “

Then the man who had received the one talent came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’ “His master replied, ‘YOU WICKED, LAZY SERVANT! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. “‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that WORTHLESS SERVANT outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Philippians 1:27-30 Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
It is faith alone,and not by works,that saves us.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

But after we receive the Spirit then the responsibility falls on us for the Spirit will not twist our arm to do right,so we have to make the choice to do right.
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
41
48
And those are works of the holy spirit through us. only those with spiritual eyes and ears can understand this
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,460
13,399
113
58
“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith, which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.