Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

eternally-gratefull · Apr 17, 2018

Only one can save

The other is a command, Just like assembling together, taking communion, Loving all people. Giving to the poor. Letting your light shine before men etc etc. It produces fruit (if done correctly) but it has NOTHING to do with your salvation.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 17, 2018

LW97 said:

They want blood plus water, Faith plus water, Faith plus works (Water)

hornetguy · Apr 17, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

That is not really true... I'm not condemning anyone. I'm just repeating what I see in scripture. Peter said that when you repent and are baptized, you will receive the Holy Spirit. That was a broad statement to over 3000 people, telling them what to do, and what they were promised if they did.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 17, 2018

hornetguy said:

Yes you are. because if one does nto get the HS UNTIL they are water baptised. anyone who does not have that chance has never been given the HS, thus are not saved.

and no you are not..

Baptism of the HS and the anointing of the HS are not the same thing. Peter is saying repent. and you will receive the gift of the spirit. that is not the baptism of the spirit. (and he only told those who repented to be batized based on the fact they received remission of sin)

As paul says in eph 4, there is one baptism. Not two, Not three Not two at the same time, One baptism.

DJ2 · Apr 17, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

You are correct there is only one baptism. It is the baptism proclaimed by Peter in Acts 2:38. All other "baptisms" are simply constructs of man.

DJ2 · Apr 17, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

None of what you wrote is true. Give an example of this condemnation by anyone here. I eagerly await your non-answer.

preston39 · Apr 17, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

e...

Do you really think G-d would accept that as a valid excuse?

What caused the prevention?

preston39 · Apr 17, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

e...,

What tells us in scripture that baptism is WORK?
Is repentance also WORK?

What is it that you do not understand where The Bible says......." repent and be baptized.... in order to receive the Holy Spirit? Isn't that rather clear direction to you?

Donmech · Apr 17, 2018

hornetguy said:

Not so, We have biblical accounts of people receiving the Holy Spirit previous to water baptism.

DJ2 · Apr 17, 2018

Donmech said:

Are any of these "accounts" of the same manner as the gift of the Holy Spirit given in Acts 2:38? You know that baptism, the one "so that your sins will be forgiven".

hornetguy · Apr 17, 2018

Donmech said:

Only one that I know of.... it was a one time thing, to prove to the Jews that the Gentiles were accepted by God as His children, too.

You know, Peter walked on water, too..... but it was a one time thing. It was to make a point, to teach a lesson.

I don't recommend that you step out of a boat and try to take a hike.

mailmandan · Apr 17, 2018

DJ2 said:

In Matthew 3:11, we read - I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Again, in Acts 1:5, we read - for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. *TWO SEPARATE BAPTISMS.

In Acts 11:16, we read - Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ *These are clearly two distinct baptisms.

*By saying ONE baptism in Ephesians 4:5, Paul did not mean that there is only one baptism that exists such as water baptism but not Spirit baptism or Spirit baptism but not water baptism etc..

*There is only ONE baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Incognito · Apr 17, 2018

Huckleberry said:

Jesus "fulfilled" water baptism which was a baptism ONLY commanded by GOD to be performed as a baptism of "Repentance; Believing that Jesus was coming" (Acts 19:4).

Ephesians 4:5 says there is only "one baptism" and that "one" is Holy Spirit baptism.

Re: Matthew 28:19 There is much controversy surrounding this Verse because there is NO WAY Jesus would have told "men" to "Go baptize" when HE *KNEW* HE was the One who was going to perform the "one baptism" spoken of in Ephesians 4:5!

Deuteronomy 19:15, Matthew 18:16 and II Corinthians 13:1 ALL say "Where there are two are three WITNESSES, they WORD is established." Where is the "WITNESS" Scripture for Matthew 28:19? Why didn't the disciples "obey" and baptize "VERBATIM?"

If I were to say to you, "Last night we have ice cream for dessert *BUT* tonight we're having peach cobbler" the dessert would change. Likewise when JESUS spoke Acts 1:5 HE SAID "John verily baptized with water; *BUT* ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days hence" and the baptism changed.

Unfortunately Peter *FORGOT* what JESUS SAID in Acts 1:5 as evidenced in Acts 11:15-16 when he said "And as I began to speak the Holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then *REMEMBERED* I the Word of the Lord, how that HE said, John indeed baptized with water; *BUT* ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

Peter "REMEMBERED" what JESUS SAID that changed water baptism to Holy Spirit baptism as evidenced by "the Holy Spirit falling on them, as on them at the beginning." Therefore, water baptism (which was performed by John UNDER THE LAW and JESUS SAID that HE would "fulfill everything done UNDER THE LAW" in Matthew 5:17-18) was "fulfilled!"

By Peter *FORGETTING* his *FORGETFULNESS* also "fulfilled" John 14:26 in which JESUS SAID "...I will bring all things to your *REMEMBRANCE* whatsoever I have said unto you."

Blessings

mailmandan · Apr 17, 2018

preston39 said:

Baptism is a "work of righteousness" (see Matthew 3:13-15; Titus 3:5) which follows saving faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47) and if it's absolutely necessary for salvation, then that would add merit on our part for receiving salvation because then we would be saved through faith based on the merits of Christ's finished work of redemption "plus the work of being water baptized."

Repenting is not a work that merits our salvation. We must first repent "change our mind" before we can believe the gospel (trust in Christ's finished work of redemption) as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Choosing to believe gospel is not a work that merits our salvation either. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Through repentance/faith, Christ is still the OBJECT of our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in receiving salvation.

What is it that you do not understand about Acts 10:43...whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins and Acts 10:47..."Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

DJ2 · Apr 17, 2018

mailmandan said:

There is no merit in submitting to baptism. The submitting to baptism is simply part of our faith in God and not ourselves. Believing as you do that your trust in faith alone regeneration theology merits your salvation is a self proclaimed work. The esoteric nature of faith alone regeneration theology is rather obvious, as is all new age teachings. Baptism has been the point/moment of salvation since the days of the apostles.

You are quick to call out "works, works, works" in others but are blind to the work that faith alone regeneration theology insist upon. Simple and humble faith in God in not enough, one must come to a peculiar understanding before salvation is given. One must accept the notion of faith alone regeneration theology, anything other then this is not of God.

If you accept the need for baptism as the moment of the forgiveness of sins, you are lost. If you don't accept the superiority of faith alone regeneration theology you are not blessed with the Holy Spirit and are blind to "your" knowledge. Is there merit in understanding & accepting faith alone regeneration theology? You bet there is and some pride as well.

Through repentance/faith/baptism, Christ is still the OBJECT of our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in receiving salvation.

This notion seems to be a blind spot in your thinking. There are no bible that translates this verse in such a way as you believe. If your theory is correct the verse should read "because of the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." But this is how it is worded in the bible:

for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift. ISV
so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift. GWT
unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ASV
so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift NOG

There is no "because of" in any bible.

As I have said before Acts 10:45 is descriptive not prescriptive as is Acts 2:38. The promise is in verse 39 of Acts 2:

39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

So the only logical conclusion when not filtering the Bible through faith alone regeneration theology is that faith in Jesus Christ implied in genuine repentance leads us to baptism as the moment we receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1st Peter 3:21; Mark 16:16; Acts 8:36-39). No esoteric knowledge necessary.

Incognito · Apr 18, 2018

Magenta said:

Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. The baptism that saves
is not by water and hands of men but by the Holy Spirit of God.

Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"

As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches through careful consideration of the language and context of the verse. We also filter it through what we know the Bible teaches elsewhere on the subject. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation is a faulty interpretation.

Regarding Mark 16:16, it is important to remember that there are some textual problems with Mark chapter 16, verses 9-20. There is some question as to whether these verses were originally part of the Gospel of Mark or whether they were added later by a scribe. As a result, it is best not to base a key doctrine on anything from Mark 16:9-20, such as snake handling, unless it is also supported by other passages of Scripture.

Assuming that verse 16 is original to Mark, does it teach that baptism is required for salvation? The short answer is, no, it does not. In order to make it teach that baptism is required for salvation, one must go beyond what the verse actually says. What this verse does teach is that belief is necessary for salvation, which is consistent with the countless verses where only belief is mentioned (e.g., John 3:18; John 5:24; John 12:44; John 20:31; 1 John 5:13).

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). This verse is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned.

While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they are saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, viz., “He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.

Those who try to use Mark 16:16 to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious mistake that is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. This is the rule to follow: “If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are also true." For example, the statement “a dog with brown spots is an animal” is true; however, the negative, “if a dog does not have brown spots, it is not an animal” is false. In the same way, “he who believes and is baptized will be saved” is true; however, the statement “he who believes but is not baptized will not be saved” is an unwarranted assumption. Yet this is exactly the assumption made by those who support baptismal regeneration.

Consider this example: "Whoever believes and lives in Kansas will be saved, but those that do not believe are condemned." This statement is strictly true; Kansans who believe in Jesus will be saved. However, to say that only those believers who live in Kansas are saved is an illogical and false assumption. The statement does not say a believer must live in Kansas in order to go to heaven. Similarly, Mark 16:16 does not say a believer must be baptized. The verse states a fact about baptized believers (they will be saved), but it says exactly nothing about believers who have not been baptized. There may be believers who do not dwell in Kansas, yet they are still saved; and there may be believers who have not been baptized, yet they, too, are still saved.

The one specific condition required for salvation is stated in the second part of Mark 16:16: “Whoever does not believe will be condemned.” In essence, Jesus has given both the positive condition of belief (whoever believes will be saved) and the negative condition of unbelief (whoever does not believe will be condemned). Therefore, we can say with absolute certainty that belief is the requirement for salvation. More importantly, we see this condition restated positively and negatively throughout Scripture (John 3:16; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:53-54; John 8:24; Acts 16:31).

Jesus mentions a condition related to salvation (baptism) in Mark 16:16. But a related condition should not be confused with a requirement. For example, having a fever is related to being ill, but a fever is not required for illness to be present. Nowhere in the Bible do we find a statement such as “whoever is not baptized will be condemned.” Therefore, we cannot say that baptism is necessary for salvation based on Mark 16:16 or any other verse.

Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? No, it does not. It clearly establishes that belief is required for salvation, but it does not prove or disprove the idea of baptism being a requirement. How can we know, then, if one must be baptized in order to be saved? We must look to the full counsel of God’s Word. Here is a summary of the evidence:

1—The Bible is clear that we are saved by faith alone. Abraham was saved by faith, and we are saved by faith (Romans 4:1-25; Galatians 3:6-22).

2—Throughout the Bible, in every dispensation, people have been saved without being baptized. Every believer in the Old Testament (e.g., Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon) was saved but not baptized. The thief on the cross was saved but not baptized. Cornelius was saved before he was baptized (Acts 10:44-46).

3—Baptism is a testimony of our faith and a public declaration that we believe in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures tell us that we have eternal life the moment we believe (John 5:24), and belief always comes before being baptized. Baptism does not save us any more than walking an aisle or saying a prayer saves us. We are saved when we believe.

4—The Bible never says that if one is not baptized then he is not saved.

5—If baptism were required for salvation, then no one could be saved without another party being present. Someone must be there to baptize a person before he can be saved. This effectively limits who can be saved and when he can be saved. The consequences of this doctrine, when carried to a logical conclusion, are devastating. For example, a soldier who believes on the battlefield but is killed before he can be baptized would go to hell.

6—Throughout the Bible we see that at the point of faith a believer possesses all the promises and blessings of salvation (John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31). When one believes, he has eternal life, does not come under judgment, and has passed from death into life (John 5:24)—all before he or she is baptized.

If you believe in baptismal regeneration, you would do well to prayerfully consider whom or what you are really putting your trust in. Is your faith in a physical act (being baptized) or in the finished work of Christ on the cross? Whom or what are you trusting for salvation? Is it the shadow (baptism) or the substance (Jesus Christ)? Our faith must rest in Christ alone. “We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7). https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Mark-16-16.html

There is controversy as to whether or not Mark 16:9-20 should be included in Scripture but Deuteronomy 19:15; Matthew 18:16 and II Corinthians 13:1 says "Where there are two are three *witnesses* the word is established" and there is a "witness" Scripture for Mark 16:17-18.

I I Corinthians 12:7-10 Paul speaks of "Spiritual gifts" given to the "members of the body of Christ" and in that list are some of the MIRACULOUS actions listed in Mark 16:17-18.

I wonder why you didn't continue into verses 17:18? It seems that you (as most) believe Mark 16:16 is referring to a "water baptism" from which one doesn't receive the "SIGNS THAT SHALL FOLLOW" as JESUS SAID which are the MIRACULOUS actions listed in verses 17-18! There is NO WAY a water baptism will produce "AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW..." which are MIRACULOUS ACTIONS! Therefore JESUS is speaking of HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM in Mark 16:16 the "one baptism" mentioned in Ephesians 4:5 and NOT a water baptism.

Isaiah 8:20 says "If they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them" and I find no place in Scripture that say "Baptism is a testimony of our faith and a public declaration that we believe in Jesus Christ."

ANYONE who believe in TWO baptisms when GOD SAID there is ONLY "one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5) DEFIES the WORD OF GOD.

mailmandan · Apr 18, 2018

DJ2 said:

Yes there is. If water baptism stands between us and salvation, then there would certainly be merit in being water baptized, which would also render Christ's finished work of redemption as in sufficient to save us, yet Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save BELIEVERS. No supplements needed.

Faith in Christ does not merit salvation because through faith in Him, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Your faith is in your baptism and NOT in CHRIST ALONE. I trust in Christ for salvation through faith and He saves me. No work of merit in that. Jesus Christ gets 100% credit for my salvation. Praise the Lord!

Baptism is not the point of salvation (believing the gospel/faith in Christ is) and baptism signifies, but does not procure salvation.

Water baptism is a work of righteousness (Matthew 3:13-15; Titus 3:5) and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done, but we are saved through faith in Christ (Romans 3:24-26; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9). *For you to say that faith in Christ is not enough is to say that Christ's finished work of redemption is not enough because Christ's finished work of redemption is the OBJECT of our faith. If you had authentic faith in Christ then you would understand, but unfortunately, the gospel remains hid to you.

You just described yourself. Your faith is in your baptism (and not in Christ alone) as the moment of the forgiveness of sins.

It takes humility and not pride to accept the fact that you are a sinner in need of a Savior and the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. It takes pride to not accept the fact that you are 100% dependent on Christ for salvation and to turn to works as your supplemental savior.

Amen!

It does not need to specifically read "because of the forgiveness of your sins" in order for my theology to be correct and I already properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion in post #1094. You just don't have eyes to see.

There does not have to be because in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

In Matthew 3:11, we read - "I baptize you with water for (eis) repentance.." Now was this baptism "for" (in order to obtain) repentance? OR was this baptism "for" (in regards to/on the basis of) repentance? The answer is obvious.

Receiving the Holy Spirit was descriptive of those who believed in Him and received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17).

It never ceases to amaze me how people with an agenda (water-salvationists) build their doctrine on a handful of verses, taken out of context, then they either ignore those multitude of verses that do not harmonize with their biased interpretation of their handful of pet verses or else they try to "force" the multitude of verses to "conform" to their handful of pet verses, but in the end, the result is always flawed hermeneutics and salvation by works.

The only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

*There is more to understanding Scripture and coming to saving faith in Christ than simply paper, ink and human intelligence.

*1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

notuptome · Apr 18, 2018

Incognito said:

Only one baptism that saves. The baptism that saves is Holy Spirit baptism. Proof texting demonstrates a lack of context. The Jews had many baptisms a part of their religious rites. Some were mandated by God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Incognito · Apr 18, 2018

The reason there is so much disagreement over water baptism is because JESUS "fulfilled" as HE PROMISED in Matthew 5:17-18. Water baptism was a baptism UNDER THE LAW and was John's baptism of "Repentance; Believing that Jesus was coming" (Acts 19:4) and HE CAME yet everyone continues!

John told us that water baptism was going to be "fulfilled." In Matthew 3:11 John said "I indeed baptize with water unto repentance: BUT..." (Which nullifies everything preceding in a sentence) "...HE shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire."

John further confirms "fulfillment" of water baptism when he said in John 1:33 "And I knew HIM not: but HE that sent me to baptize with water...the same is HE which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."

And again in John 3:30 John said "HE must increase, but I must decrease" which was saying "Holy Spirit baptism must increase, but water baptism must decrease" for that was why John was "sent" (John 1:33).

Most think Jesus was water baptized as "an example" but that's not true. When Jesus walked the face of the earth HE KEPT ALL LAWS (Matthew 5:17-18) and during that time water baptism was an act done UNDER THE LAW and HE certainly didn't need John baptism of "Repentance; believing that JESUS was coming" (Acts 19:4)!

In Matthew 3:15 JESUS told us why HE was being baptized "To fulfill ALL righteousness" which was to KEEP THE LAW and not sin in the eyes of people and to "fulfill" what HE had spoken through the prophets Isaiah (40:3) and Malachi (3:1) thereby "fulfilling ALL righteousness."

Most importantly JESUS "fulfilled" water baptism when HE spoke these Words. Before HIS ascension, HE told the disciples in Acts 1:5 "John verily baptized with water; *BUT* [Which nullifies everything spoken in a sentence previously] ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost..." which "fulfilled" water baptism.

Unfortunately, Peter "FORGOT" what Jesus said in Acts 1:5 and gave 'a formula' for receiving the FREE "gift" in Acts 2:38 as evidenced ["FORGETTING"] in Acts 11:15-16 causing us to "read the letter" (II Corinthians 3:6) and believe all of the ERRONEOUS water baptisms throughout the Book of Acts although Jesus had "fulfilled" (Acts 1:5)!

To make matters WORSE, we have a "VICEGERENT" who has ENTWINED LIES into Scripture to believe *his* doctrine of "water baptism." After "revelation" in Acts 11:15-16 Paul ALLEGEDLY performed the last water baptism in the Book of Acts in Chapter 19 but listen to the two questions Paul asked these "certain disciples" (Acts 19:1) in verses 2 and 3.

"Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed" (v2)?

"How were you baptized" (v3)?

Why is Paul ASSOCIATING "receiving the Holy Ghost" with "being baptized?"

If you all KNEW what God has "revealed" to me instead of calling me "the Anti-Christ" you would KNOW that "the Anti-Christ" is the VICEGERENT!

Incognito · Apr 18, 2018

notuptome said:

GOD SAID "one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5) and NO ONE can "ADD" (Revelation 22:18-19) another or you DEFY GOD!

Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

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