Since I quoted Ben, I will quote him again, and that is exactly what Ben said.
A natural solution is still provided by God...
Healing through the Son
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A natural solution is still provided by God...
JUST AS A SUPERNATURAL ONE IS. That means he acknowledges both, quite contrary to your portrayal of what was said.
I didn't? haha
I have stated in the past that diet and exercise are important in our well-being and caring for the temple God has given us. We abuse our bodies, and then ask the Lord to heal them (and He does), but that doesn't eliminate the responsibility we have in the maintenance of our health (because He has provided the tools for upkeep). Healing then is both supernatural, and natural. At times instantaneous and at other times progressive.
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UnderGrace., "Zapped" is the word I always thought of when my old ideas of God the Father came up during communion especially. Or a thunder and lightning storm or when the kids came home from school with all kinds of illnesses and or lice.
I believed God would use these things to get us so He could mysteriously show us He loved us. When communion time came at our church once a month I often tried to be absent. The pastors and elders told stories of people getting killed in the pew during the communion service. They said..."must have been some hidden sin" God is not mocked..... watch out.... be afraid....be very afraid. No. I don't fear God anymore because of what Jesus did. I'm 100% loved by God now as if I never sinned.
It's the kind of teaching most people get when thinking of God without Jesus as the filter. As if God is working from a place of "I'm gonna teach you how much I love you if it kills you" No no that is not God the Father. Jesus never came at anyone with that kind of attitude. That is a human attitude void of grace.
Really want to make this clear UnderGrace,. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone of anything. I consider these topics and make my own decisions based on principles about the attributes of God in Jesus. The debate about Ananias&Sapphira in Acts 5 has gone on a long time so this is not a "prove you wrong prove me right" discussion for me. And neither is this healing discussion. People are free to believe as they want and I'm free to do the same.
It's much like the rapture discussion. The reason I believe Jesus is coming for the church in a pre tribulation time line is because first I read 1 Thess. 4:13-18 many years ago when our church taught it. As the years have gone on the pros and cons of the Rapture debate came and went and today I'm more confident that Jesus has taken all of God's wrath against sin away from believers. Why... because now I know about Jesus love and grace.
I've had a glimpse of God's love and grace so now I always look to see Jesus in these many topics that are in the Bible. The many questions and ideas other believers have should be able to be discussed without fear. And we should be most able to agree to disagree.
As far as your opinions about Bill Johnson and of the term "Jesus is perfect theology" that is your opinion and your entitled to it. But I like the phrase and like to use it because Jesus IS perfect theology for me. I have listened to Bill Johnson and many other Christians and none of them are 100% perfect. But I can appreciate the things they do say that are good. As I hope people will do with me.
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If we eat the bread or drink the cup of the Lord's Supper or communion in an unworthy manner, they drink/eat judgement, sickness, weakness and death on ourselves because of making light of the communion of the Lord. Yes the Lord has and does judge those that partake of the communion of the Lord in an unworthy manner. He judges them with weakness and sickness, imagine that with all these blab it and grab it preachers teaching that Jesus always heals those that are ill, sick or going to die if they have the faith. Yet the apostle Paul writes under the influance of the Holy Spirit by which He heals all according to these false teachers, as long as those that are ill, sick, weak or going to die have the faith of God (as if God needs faith), if God did have faith it would have to be in Himself because there is none more powerful to place ones faith in. As He swore Hebrews 6:13 “For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself,”
Back to the idea that the Lord heals all, He does not heal all and He cause some to be sick, weak and die when they eat of the bread and/or drink of the cup of the Lord unworthily manner according to the Lord's standard. A word to the wise, if you know someone that goes to Church and is not a child of God and is partaking of the Lord's Supper you should read these verses to them or guide them to read them. Because they for sure are partaking unworthily and are bringing judgement on themselves.
It amazes me as to how these blab it and grab it preachers do not know the Word of god, yet espose to have revelation knowledge to the Word of God. Yet on the simplest teachings in God's Word, that the Lord is Holy, Righteous and the Judge of all men. But this is not limited to the blab it and grab it preachers, this goes to the God loves everyone equally, that carries with it the idea that God's love is equal for humans that will never know Him, because He does not know them. That is a relational knowledge of them from His side not theirs, as in John 10:3-18
“3To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers……..
7So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lay down his life for the sheep……14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. 17For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
Here Jesus tells us that He lays down His life for His sheep, no one takes it from Him and that His sheep know Him and He knows His sheep, just as the Father knew Him and He knew the Father is the same relation that He had with His sheep. He has a special relationship with the sheep, one that He does not have with those that are not His sheep. The sheep being His people and He knows them as sheep, not goats that become sheep because they are His people, He has a speacial relationship with them and He knows them like He and the Father know each other verses 14-15. He also lays His life down for the sheep, those that He knows as He knows the Father. He knows them and lays down His life for them, because of this relationship and Paul verifies this in Romans 5:6-11
“For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus
Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
The Lord has a special love for His people and laid down His life for His sheep. He has a special love for His people, He also has a judgement for those that unworthialy partake of the Lord's Supper and judges them while they are alive here on earth. Paul tells us that many are weak, sick and quite a few are dead, read verses 29-30 in I Corinthians 11 and we will see that Jesus does not heal everyone and judges people with weakness, being sick and death.
It really pays to read God's Word so we can know the full nature of God, He is righteous, holy and His judgements are true because He knows all things.
I don't see this as a sin, but as an unrenewed mind Cee. And not in a punishing kind of way, but failure to obtain because of unbelief. Not refusing to believe, though it could be this for a few, but lack of understanding what these scriptures mean.
I've heard this many times...we must examine our hearts to see if there is any sin...and not take part if so.
This is error. We take communion in our need of all that Jesus has obtained for us through His death...but even moreso with His life. We are lifed by His body and blood. Here is where the scripture comes into play, if that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead...He will quicken our mortal body. We can be lifed now, and not have to wait for immortality.
So we die from diseases because of lack of teaching truth. Is what I see in failure to discern His body through our communion with Him.
We will however, step over into glory, whether ill or not at some point...unless we are taken.
Stones, to understood you right. You say that we do not wait till we got our new body for to live a life without sickness and deseases?
And if a christian dies on any deseases than because he had not got the right teaching?
If you really believe this?
I don't see this as a sin, but as an unrenewed mind Cee. And not in a punishing kind of way, but failure to obtain because of unbelief. Not refusing to believe, though it could be this for a few, but lack of understanding what these scriptures mean.
I've heard this many times...we must examine our hearts to see if there is any sin...and not take part if so.
This is error. We take communion in our need of all that Jesus has obtained for us through His death...but even moreso with His life. We are lifed by His body and blood. Here is where the scripture comes into play, if that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead...He will quicken our mortal body. We can be lifed now, and not have to wait for immortality.
So we die from diseases because of lack of teaching truth. Is what I see in failure to discern His body through our communion with Him.
We will however, step over into glory, whether ill or not at some point...unless we are taken.
Where do you have this teaching from? So far I know this teaching came out of the charismatic movements. If this teaching would come from God then why we cant find this important teachings not in the NT letters? Why God hide this till the charismatic movements came around 2000 years after the church began? And why this important information is only given to single charismatic christians, while all others dont got it. Imagine how many christians suffered because of not got the right teaching.
What's your problem Magenta? Having a bad hair day? Note what I said below:
5. The Lord continues to heal people daily, either as a response to prayer or simply because ultimately He is the only Healer, and medical doctors can only go so far. Christians who are sick are instructed to call for the elders to pray over them.
What Ben and others of his persuasion are promoting is a false Gospel.
True or false?
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus fromthe dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the deadshall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
is this just after we die?
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UTI. Urinary Tract Infection. Had that every other month for close to two years. The other months I was on antibiotics. It feels like I urgently have to go to the bathroom. It got easier just to sit on the toilet and relax, instead of constantly twitching, crossing my legs, and jumping up and down, like what happens when you really do have to go, but still have to get to a toilet. God healed me from that. I am truly grateful.
John wasn't supposed to survive his heart attack. He wasn't supposed to survive the pneumonia right after, then the EKMO for more than ten days, then the kidney failure, and then the infection so bad that the internist said he was his sickest patient in ICU (and it was a big ICU -- 35 beds, and I know this, because John got switched around rooms so often, I spent time in every single wing of that ICU lol). He also survived the odds for length of time in an ICU. (Did you know that people who stay in the ICU for longer than 35 days are likely to die within the next year, even if they get better to the point of checking out of the hospital?) He also wasn't ever supposed to be able to eat again, go to the bathroom on his own, (think catheters), or walk without the aid of a walker. All those things he wasn't supposed to do, he did/does.
I am eternally grateful the Lord gave us those miracles, but that's not the base for our relationship with the Lord. The Lord is the base of our relationship with the Lord. God regenerated us before we had those kinds of health problems. He redeemed us, justified us, and is sanctifying us, whether he would healed us physically or not. He's healed us of our sinful nature, even before he's put us into the new bodies that will keep us away from sin.
John and I are enjoying life because we've been given life to enjoy, but it is so much more about the giver, than the gift.
My uncle gave me a ride in his Vet. It was very cool! I can't remember the interior of that car. I do remember how he glowed though. Big grin on his face, jeff cap stayed on, (Convertible, so still don't know how his jeff cap stayed on lol), and hairy arm on his door as we zoomed around. It was his delight I remember the most about his Vet. Sheer unadulterated joy. And sharing that joy made it even bigger to him.
Who is that uncle? He's Mom's "little brother." (He was bigger than Mom before I was born. lol) Mom left Dad, and took us to live with her and her mom. And then the unthinkable happened. She was diagnosed with a type of cancer guaranteed to kill her. We, (her kids), were 16, 15, and 4 years old when that happened. Way too much was about to happen to give her the strength to take care of two teens and a toddler, along with fighting the cancer. So her "little brother" brought me and my little brother home to live with him and his family. We lived with him for nine months.
Still not interested in holding the keys to the car. I much prefer the owner! And the owner holds me!
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Apology if I read this about the wrong person, but does it matter? You did use "you," and considering there isn't a single full-on cessationist* on this thread, (possibly even on this site), you do keep insisting everyone but the WoFers stopped believing in miracles.
This keeps coming down to "healing doesn't happen because you don't believe," and yet there isn't a single one of us who doesn't believe in miracles.
We keep getting blamed for stuff we don't believe. And it is blame!
* Some of us are partial cessationists. I, for instance, don't believe in future-telling prophecies or there is an office for healing anymore. Many folks in my denomination don't believe in tongues.
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Is your orange puddy-cat with the sword willing to chop all the inerrant quotey-linkey mess ups we have going on in this thread now? Can he save the day?Just for clarification, because somehow it's showing that I originally posted what Joanie wrote, that is HER post, not mine.
I've never seen tongues like it first occurred in Acts. A lot of what some call jibber-jabber, though.
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More proof on the passive-aggressive charge.
Is it just too much to ask if you have a problem with someone, just out and out talk to the person, instead of this over-all thing you do where it always sounds like an Amish man with a gun?
My charge wasn't out of left field. You do this all the time. You're still doing it.
Reminds me of an old joke. So old I forget the whole joke. But basically the scene somehow ends up with a man staring at a dog with its teeth bared and tail waging. And the woman says, "Don't worry. He's waging his tail."
And the guy says, "I don't know which end of the dog I believe."
I know which end to believe. I don't believe this is where you began questioning Angela's intention. This is where you are pretending to be harmless, while not being harmless at all. aka passive-aggressive.
Is that taught in WoF school? (And there is some humor there, since everyone wants to know what I've been taught in Calvinism school, and yet never went to Calvinism school. Just to be clear, I do have a lot of the same traits as Calvinists though, given I am one. And this passive-aggressive thing really is a common trait for WoFers. I'm now curious what they teach in Calvinism school. And more so, on how WoFers all end up with this one common trait, since there is no WoF school. A little humor, mostly not humorous.)
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I'll give the same example I've been giving for months now on WoF threads. The man at the pool of Bethesda. He couldn't get in the healing waters because there were so many others trying to be healed too, so he didn't have a shot. And yet, Jesus healed that one man, but not everyone.
You WoFers keep saying Jesus healed everyone. Clearly he did not. So, why do you keep teaching Jesus healed everyone?
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Feeling a little guilty for adding a like onto your post.
Bah! Clearly not guilty enough not to do it though.
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How do we know when it's not the Holy Spirit leading us. When what we're being lead into contradicts what the Bible says. When that happens, don't blame it on Holy Spirit leading. It is spirit-leading, but not the Holy Spirit.
And to be clear, I don't know which spirit is leading. Could be our own spirit or a demon, but there really is a way to find out if what we're being lead into is from the Holy Spirit or not. You tend to believe, "I like this, therefore, the Holy Spirit leads me."
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Off topic:
You think the "scripture is abundantly clear that Ananias and Sapphira were believers"? Wow! How so?
I strongly suspect they were like the 90%ers who followed the Lord until it got to difficult. They seemed like believers, but God just wasn't important enough to change over.
So what is it in scripture that makes you think it was abundantly clear?
(And, I'm pretty sure this shouldn't lead into a heavy-duty argument. I'm really asking because I've wondered about those two here and there.)
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Do you think you have a good reputation that I can defame it?God knows the heart. If someone posted something that was defamatory towards you, and I liked it, I'm sure that would call into question my integrity in your eyes. Just saying.
Realism would help you greatly.
Here's the whole picture of what I see in you. You are a young man trying to seem old and wise. I really do get that we're never going to be completely wise in our entire lives. And youth comes complete with inexperience along with a whole lot of tumbles. ("Tried that. Didn't work. Tried that. Didn't work." Those kinds of tumbles.) But the thing the tumbles are supposed to teach us is we aren't wise, and we have much to learn. (I will let you know if I ever get to the point of feeling I finally arrived at wisdom or finally arrived to the point of learning it all. Do NOT hold your breath waiting for that to happen.)
You're problem is you tend to think your job is to teach everyone from your vast stores of wisdom.
My problem is trying to teach you you don't yet have the vast stores of wisdom.
And this has nothing to do with age. Blain is your age and he teaches within the set of what he has learned so far. He gets he has miles to go on the stuff he doesn't know so far. And he gets he might be wrong. You tend to think you got everything you need already and thus you are here to impart this great wisdom onto the rest of us fools.
You know what I want out of you? Why I keep harping on you? I want you to stop putting on the old-and-wise fake face, and to speak from the real you. The you who knows you don't know everything yet. The you that is willing to concede that simple little commonality we all have, so you can open your mind to the obvious thing you're missing. You've been indoctrinated into a boat load of crap, and have, as yet, come to realize it is one huge boatload of crap!
People come to the Lord complete with huge boat loads of crap. A lot of the crap we don't even know is crap for years. (I really was raised Catholic, and when I was born again landed into a group who believe the same crap about healing that you do. It took me a very short time to learn what RCC crap I carried as treasure. It took me even longer to dump the crap I learned from that first place I landed after being born again. I didn't know it was crap until I listened to real people of God and read the Bible. So, again, this is not about age.)
Once we get which stuff is and which stuff isn't crap, then it is joint effort to dump the cargo we carry. You keep thinking you've got no crap.