Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Believers are no longer enemies!!
Romans 5:10: "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation"
Romans 8:15-17: "For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together" (The "if indeed" being confirmation that we will suffer, since we're no longer of the world, and a servant is not greater than their master)
Romans 5:10: "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation"
Romans 8:15-17: "For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together" (The "if indeed" being confirmation that we will suffer, since we're no longer of the world, and a servant is not greater than their master)
There Is a justified by faith to GOD who looks at the heart and there Is justifying your faith to men who can only judge what he or she sees.
The scriptures that Paul and James wrote were both Inspired by GOD so then we know that those scriptures would need to be harmonized together so that they are not sounding contradictory .
The scriptures that Paul and James wrote were both Inspired by GOD so then we know that those scriptures would need to be harmonized together so that they are not sounding contradictory .
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it gave evidence or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
Got me thinking about those who reject eternal security...
I once was lost, but now am found... and now lost again
I once was lost, but now am found... and now lost again
If indeed you are lost again, do not give up: God is still there and will receive you back and you can once again find peace and love and security and salvation in Him: What He asks has never changed: Believe in me and you will be saved!
You obviously misread what I stated. Since the Roman Creed was written in the 200s and the Apostles Creed was an update of it written in the next century so why did you imply I said that the Apostles wrote it. In point of fact the Catholic Church of today was not started then. It had it's begining under Emperor Constantine. The great schism creating the Orthodox Church started over Constantine moving the Roman capital to Constantinople. Prior to that it was a catholic (universal) church. Denominations hadn't started yet. You seem to have a distorted view of church history. The churches started by the apostles grew and spread without denominations until the great schism. There is some confusion about the specific date of the Apostles Creed. The earliest possible date is 312 with the first mention by name in a letter dated 390.
Last edited:
Why do you reject any Biblical aid written by Christians? You say Bible only. I therefore defy you to find all verses on the topic of salvation in the Bible including the Old Testament. Here is where Bible aids help people studying the Bible. The Apostles Creed was created in church history when divisions accured and there were heresies. It was created to define who is and isn't a Christian. Any group not meeting that standard is in heresy. Without that short standard how do you research if a topic is heretical. I know, sit down and read the whole Bible!!
Topical indexes and the comprehensive systematic theology books point to verses on the subject. In addition there are many books on different topics written by Christians to help people understand what the Bible says about different topics. Also in Sunday School and other Bible study groups there are teaching aids with pamphlets for each person and a special teaching pamphlet for the leader. In all of these verses in the Bible are used to verify what the text is saying.
Each denomination has a document outlining it's view of the Bible with verses showing where they get their view from. For example the Reformed Church has the Heidelberg Catechism and the Canons of Dort. Presbyterian PCA uses the Westminster Confession and the Larger and Shorter Catechism. In addition most denominations have a Book of Church Order defining the church government and the standards of the faith.
In my considered opinion being a Christian for 69 years and taking classes in theology in order to become first a deacon and later an elder you are very opinionated with the view you are right and anyone disagreeing with you is non Biblical. You might say different but that is how you come across. Maintaining Bible only is foolish. The Bible is the standard but books aid in getting pointed to the verses on a topic.
Topical indexes and the comprehensive systematic theology books point to verses on the subject. In addition there are many books on different topics written by Christians to help people understand what the Bible says about different topics. Also in Sunday School and other Bible study groups there are teaching aids with pamphlets for each person and a special teaching pamphlet for the leader. In all of these verses in the Bible are used to verify what the text is saying.
Each denomination has a document outlining it's view of the Bible with verses showing where they get their view from. For example the Reformed Church has the Heidelberg Catechism and the Canons of Dort. Presbyterian PCA uses the Westminster Confession and the Larger and Shorter Catechism. In addition most denominations have a Book of Church Order defining the church government and the standards of the faith.
In my considered opinion being a Christian for 69 years and taking classes in theology in order to become first a deacon and later an elder you are very opinionated with the view you are right and anyone disagreeing with you is non Biblical. You might say different but that is how you come across. Maintaining Bible only is foolish. The Bible is the standard but books aid in getting pointed to the verses on a topic.
I used to rattle off the Apostle Creed, when I was growing up, in the Lutheran Church. I could day dream and not miss a word. I was not Born Again until I was 29 years old. But I was in Church almost every Sunday, and would rattle off the Apostles Creed, and the REST of the ORDER of SERVICE, while day dreaming. That Memorized Apostles Creed DID NOT SAVE ME.
THANK GOD I AM NOW IN BIBLE TEACHING EVANGELICAL CHURCH, AND NOT IN WHERE THEY THOUGHT MEMORIZED APOSTLES CREED SAVED ME.
THANK GOD I AM NOW IN BIBLE TEACHING EVANGELICAL CHURCH, AND NOT IN WHERE THEY THOUGHT MEMORIZED APOSTLES CREED SAVED ME.
A
I think you are mistaken...are you rejecting Paul?
Greek Concordance: ἀνάθεμα (anathema) -- 5 Occurrences
Ananthema is not the same as katara.
Ananthema is like saying Jesus didn't have the Holy Spirit but a demon.
Katara is like describing a natural disaster happening.
The use of the words "cursed" and "evil" have changed in meaning over the years.
Greek Concordance: κατάρα (katara) -- 2 Occurrences
Greek Concordance: ἀνάθεμα (anathema) -- 5 Occurrences
Ananthema is not the same as katara.
Ananthema is like saying Jesus didn't have the Holy Spirit but a demon.
Katara is like describing a natural disaster happening.
The use of the words "cursed" and "evil" have changed in meaning over the years.
Greek Concordance: κατάρα (katara) -- 2 Occurrences
Last edited by a moderator:
Was the gospel taught in the church? I met a man from a Lutheran Church that heard the gospel message the first time in a special public invited evening service with refreshments afterwards. He was shocked. The creeds are tools to use as standards. Without the gospel being taught from the pulpit it becomes meaningless. Almost just religious verbiage. It is a useful tool for helping someone come to an understanding of the need for having faith in Jesus.
Last edited:
Deuteronomy 21:22-23 (ESV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] “And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by God. You shall not defile your land that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance.
JESUS willingly BORE OUR SIN on that TREE, {CROSS}.
John 15:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] No one has greater love than this, that someone would lay down his life for his friends.
IT WAS NOT HIS GUILT THAT PUT HIM ON THAT TREE, for their is NO SIN IN HIM. IT WAS OUR GUILT THAT PUT HIM ON THAT TREE.
1 Peter 2:24 (HCSB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that, having died to sins, we might live for righteousness; you have been healed by His wounds.
Galatians 3:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed.
To answer your question, it was PAUL.
Last edited:
Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I knowthat thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
When it was seen that Abraham gave up his only begotten son to God, then it was known that Abraham feared God.
I think that the salvation of God results in righteousness and the good works of God.
But that the cart can’t be put before the horse, so to speak.
And I believe we, as one body shall by faith grow together and attain to the perfect man, Jesus Christ, as one.
There are the works of man apart from Christ, (works done in the flesh) and the ordained works of God done by faith in Jesus.
I know that after I was born I had faith and experience in the spirit, but I wanted to determine if I was fruitful. My reasoning was, Jesus is the vine, I’m a branch, and God is looking for fruit. And I knew that fruit was of God and had three testable qualities, righteousness, goodness and truth.
Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
When I stepped forward in faith to do what God led me to do then I’d see God work.
To this day I find that the faith to answer yes to God, and to step forward in faith of him, is the bottom line when it comes to seeing God do something that brings forth fruit in my life.
I have not found my faith to be finished. I struggle to be faithful in things wherein I’m weak in faith, and yet, over time faith does seem to grow stronger.
But, as the scripture teaches us, works are proposed temple stones that God shall test by fire to prove them true and worthy.
So, I continue on in faith of him with fear and trembling.
I find fear and trembling is associated with walking by faith following Jesus. I doubt myself, but trust God, and am grateful for the scriptures that tell me the truth that is of God, not of man.
When it was seen that Abraham gave up his only begotten son to God, then it was known that Abraham feared God.
I think that the salvation of God results in righteousness and the good works of God.
But that the cart can’t be put before the horse, so to speak.
And I believe we, as one body shall by faith grow together and attain to the perfect man, Jesus Christ, as one.
There are the works of man apart from Christ, (works done in the flesh) and the ordained works of God done by faith in Jesus.
I know that after I was born I had faith and experience in the spirit, but I wanted to determine if I was fruitful. My reasoning was, Jesus is the vine, I’m a branch, and God is looking for fruit. And I knew that fruit was of God and had three testable qualities, righteousness, goodness and truth.
Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
When I stepped forward in faith to do what God led me to do then I’d see God work.
To this day I find that the faith to answer yes to God, and to step forward in faith of him, is the bottom line when it comes to seeing God do something that brings forth fruit in my life.
I have not found my faith to be finished. I struggle to be faithful in things wherein I’m weak in faith, and yet, over time faith does seem to grow stronger.
But, as the scripture teaches us, works are proposed temple stones that God shall test by fire to prove them true and worthy.
So, I continue on in faith of him with fear and trembling.
I find fear and trembling is associated with walking by faith following Jesus. I doubt myself, but trust God, and am grateful for the scriptures that tell me the truth that is of God, not of man.
Here is the list of the 613 laws in the Torah. They are scattered though it.
List of the 613 laws in the Torah
All 613 Commandments in the Old Testament Law of Moses
List of the 613 laws in the Torah
All 613 Commandments in the Old Testament Law of Moses
TEACHING THE WORD, is far, far more effective. In the conservative Evangelical type of Churches that I have attended ever since, the Sermons are about one hour long, and the Pastor teaches Verse by Verse. I thought Head Knowledge was all that I needed and sitting on a pew, but someone should have told me, "Sitting in a Garage does not make you a car, any more than sitting on a pew made me a Christian." Born Again is sincere HEART KNOWLEDGE. I was MISSING SALVATION by 18 inches, the distance between my Head and MY HEART. I was one of those that went through the WRONG GATE, and was on the road to the Destruction of Hell.
The Parable of the Gates is ONLY ABOUT PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS.
Matthew 7:13-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
Why do you think HE told Peter three times to FEED MY SHEEP?
Which means TEACH THEM MY WORDS, explain it, and how it applies to our lives. AND JESUS IS AUTHOR IN EVERY VERSE and including Gen.1:1 and Rev 22:21.
He did not say, Recite My Creeds.
The Parable of the Gates is ONLY ABOUT PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS.
Matthew 7:13-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
Why do you think HE told Peter three times to FEED MY SHEEP?
Which means TEACH THEM MY WORDS, explain it, and how it applies to our lives. AND JESUS IS AUTHOR IN EVERY VERSE and including Gen.1:1 and Rev 22:21.
He did not say, Recite My Creeds.