Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Well said Mailmandan, making clear salvation is by "Grace Alone", we are saved "unto good works" that God has prepared for each Christian in advance that we would walk in them. It is not Grace plus works/merit, it is by, "Grace Alone". Works are what God has prepared in advance for you and I which have nothing to do with our eternal salvation, True Gospel
How does this idea of 'works are what God has prepared in advance for you and I'? Does that mean something like this: my neighbor's cow is caught in a big mud hole, and I hear the bellowing cow and go to my neighbor and help him get his cow out of the hole. Did God have some kind of a hand in that cow getting into the hole, to prepare a way for me to do a good work?

And the second question is: What if God had prepared this situation for me to do a good work, and I ignored the bellowing cow and stayed in my home, and the cow died? Does that effect my salvation somehow?

I hope you do not think I am goading you or trolling you, I am a practical gospel observer, and I want to know how your gospel belief actually effects your daily life.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Bible->>>By grace are you saved through faith

Workers for->>>By works are you saved by self

Pharisees->>>By self righteousness are you saved by self exhultation
There you go again with that dishonesty problem. Here us the truth:

workers>>>believe and have faith that the grace of Jesus will save us + furnished with all good works out of our love for Jesus.

You must remember our belief system, you misrepresent it all the time.

BTW what the pharisees thought or did is not relevant to us, because they really did think that by their works and by their selves, they could earn their way to heaven. That is not us, and every time you associate pharisee concepts to us, you know you are being dishonest.
Pharisees did not believe in Jesus, we do.
Pharisees did not have faith in Jesus, we do.
Pharisees did not love Jesus, we do.
Pharisees do not have trust in Jesus, we do.
Pharisees do not believe in the grace of Jesus, we do.
Pharisees believe that by their good works, they will go to heaven. we don't.

So where is the association?
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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The Conversion of Charles Spurgeon

Written by: Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Sunday Morning Sermon:


"There is a power in God's gospel beyond all description. Once I, like Mazeppa, lashed to the wild horse of my lust, bound hand and foot, incapable of resistance, was galloping on with hell's wolves behind me, howling for my body and my soul as their just and lawful prey. There came a mighty hand which stopped that wild horse, cut my bands, set me down, and brought me into liberty. Is there power in the gospel? Ay, there is, and he who has felt it must acknowledge it."

"He lifted up His cross, using it as a hammer; at the first blow, the gate of my prejudice shook; at the second, it trembled more; at the third, down it fell, and in He came; and He said, "Arise, and stand upon thy feet, for I have loved thee with an everlasting love." The gospel a thing of power! Ah! that it is. It always wears the dew of its youth; it glitters with morning's freshness, its strength and its glory abide for ever. I have felt its power in my own heart; I have the witness of the Spirit within my spirit, and I know it is a thing of might, because it has conquered me, and bowed me down."


"In my conversion, the very point lay in making the discovery that I had nothing to do but to look to Christ, and I should be saved. I believe that I had been a very good, attentive hearer; my own impression about myself was that nobody ever listened much better than I did; but the good news that I was, as a sinner, to look away from myself to Christ, as much startled me, and came as fresh to me, as any news ever heard in my life."

"When, for the first time, I received the gospel to my soul's salvation, I thought that I had never really heard it before, and I began to think that the preachers to whom I had listened had not truly preached it. But, on looking back, I am inclined to believe that I had heard the gospel fully preached many hundreds of times before, and that this was the difference,—that I then heard it as though I heard it not; and when I did hear it, the message may not have been any more clear in itself than it had been at former times, but the power of the Holy Spirit was present to open my ear, and to guide the message to my heart."

"I sometimes think I might have been in darkness and despair until now had it not been for the goodness of God in sending a snowstorm, one Sunday morning, while I was going to a certain place of worship. When I could go no further, I turned down a side street, and came to a little Primitive Chapel. In that chapel there may have been a dozen or fifteen people. I had heard of the Primitive Chapel, how they sang so loudly that they made people's heads ache; but that did not matter to me. I wanted to know how I might be saved,"

"LOOK UNTO ME, AND BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH; FOR I AM GOD AND THERE IS NONE ELSE."Isaiah45:22

"The preacher began thus—"My dear friends, this is a very simple text indeed. It says, 'Look.' Now lookin' don't take a deal of pains. It ain't liftin' your foot or your finger; it is just, 'Look.' Well, a man needn't go to College to learn to look. You may be the biggest fool, and yet you can look. Anyone can look; but then the text says, 'Look unto Me.' Ay!" said he, in broad Essex, "many on ye are lookin' to yourselves, but it's no use lookin' there. You'll never find any comfort in yourselves."

"Then the good man followed up his text in this way:—"Look unto Me; I am sweatin' great drops of blood. Look unto Me; I am hangin' on the cross. Look unto Me; I am dead and buried. Look unto Me; I rise again. Look unto Me; I ascend to Heaven. Look unto Me; I am sittin' at the Father's right hand. O poor sinner, look unto Me! look unto Me!"

"Then, lifting up his hands, he shouted, "Young man, look to Jesus Christ. Look! Look! Look! You have nothin' to do but to look and live." I saw at once the way of salvation. I know not what else he said,—I did not take much notice of it,—I was so consumed with that one thought. Like as when the brazen serpent was lifted up, the people only looked and were healed, so it was with me."

"There is a Fountain Filled with Blood"

"Ever since by faith I saw the stream
Thy flowing wounds supply,
Redeeming love has been my theme,
And shall be till I die."
 
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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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I repeat:

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
Now all you have to do is figure out if you are a sheep?

BTW have you analyzed this scripture:

All you have to do to get eternal life is hear the word and follow Jesus.

No mention of believe?
No mention of love?
No mention of trust?
No mention of grace?
No mention of works?

Just hear me and follow me, and I will give you eternal life.

But when you analyze the word 'follow' you will find a good works element associated with following him.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Now all you have to do is figure out if you are a sheep?

BTW have you analyzed this scripture:

All you have to do to get eternal life is hear the word and follow Jesus.

No mention of believe?
No mention of love?
No mention of trust?
No mention of grace?
No mention of works?

Just hear me and follow me, and I will give you eternal life.

But when you analyze the word 'follow' you will find a good works element associated with following him.
You continue to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Bible->>>By grace are you saved by faith

Workers for->>>By works are you saved by self

Pharisees->>>By self righteousness are you saved by self exhultation
Bible>>>Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith with my works.

Workers>>>We believe in Jesus and have faith in his grace, + we are furnished with all good works out of love for our Savior.

Pharisees>>>irrelevant.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
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How does this idea of 'works are what God has prepared in advance for you and I'? Does that mean something like this: my neighbor's cow is caught in a big mud hole, and I hear the bellowing cow and go to my neighbor and help him get his cow out of the hole. Did God have some kind of a hand in that cow getting into the hole, to prepare a way for me to do a good work?

And the second question is: What if God had prepared this situation for me to do a good work, and I ignored the bellowing cow and stayed in my home, and the cow died? Does that effect my salvation somehow?

I hope you do not think I am goading you or trolling you, I am a practical gospel observer, and I want to know how your gospel belief actually effects your daily life.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

You need to figure it out for yourself.

We cannot deny the verses in Ephesians.

Saved by faith and not works.
As a result of being saved by faith then God then he has works for us to walk in.

If we fail we are still saved by faith. It does not affect salvation but it sure can affect our walk with God.
But he will deal with us as he knows best.

Don't focus on the worry of losing your salvation.
Focus of the author of your salvation. The one who is the perfector of your faith.

Hebrews 12:1-2
Chapter 12
The Race of Faith
1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Nobody is explaining away James ch2, mailmandan explained it best. James is speaking man to man, you show me your faith without, I'll show you my faith with works. James is not speaking to our eternal salvation, your interpretation of this verse is incorrect. I am just exhausted right now and have not the energy. I would refer you to mailmandan for a fuller explaination.
God bless
Nice try to direct James to a man to man discussion not about our eternal salvation. What grace school did you go to that taught you how to redirect biblical words to your belief system?

Do you not believe that 'faith' has something to do with your salvation. What James was saying is that if a man says he has faith, but has no works, he does not really have faith, and of course then he doesn't really have salvation.

So James says I will show you I have faith with my works.

It is all about salvation, but good try anyway.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ then you have faith in Him. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form.

It would be impossible to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved and yet have absolutely no love for Jesus (Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 16:22; 1 John 4:7 etc..).

If you BELIEVE then you are trusting in HIM as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ). Strong's #4100.

Genuine believers obey His words, although not sinless, perfect obedience -- 100% of the time.

Apparently, you don't believe Acts 16:31.

Straw man argument.

Those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved/will be let into heaven. Are you trusting 100% in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation or are you ALSO trusting in your works/performance/accomplishments as the means of your salvation as well? Is your belief, trust, reliance 50% in Christ and the other 50% in works?
So you have made my point. Why do we need any more of the bible than just Acts 16:31? Why all the rest of it?

Could it be that Jesus's sermons about having faith in him and doing his works was important for us?
Was it important to hear about all the faith that the apostles had and all of their good works for the KOG?
Was it important to hear about all the faith of the people and all the good works they did for Jesus?

Yes, the bible is full of the faith + the good works of Jesus, the apostles, and the people. It all needs to sink in, not just faith alone, otherwise you are left with Acts 16:31 and the rest is useless, in fact it confuses the matter of salvation.
 
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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Hi decon, pick up on the "OSAS" theme it will be the worker's for, hidden agenda. It is not the goal of worker's to prove their misinterpretation of James2:17, it is their goal to destroy the "eternal security of the believer", if they can effectively win that argument they think in their twisted view of the bible that their is no "security of the believer", which is a complete lie from the devil.

Obviously the bible does teach, "the security of the believer", but they are hell bent to prove this beautiful promise of Jesus is false, and so they prop up OSAS as an attempt to distort the wonderful truth of Jesus.

Ultimately these mixed up worker's are promoting a "Merit" based religion which they think will balance out their bad deeds with their good deeds and God will be pleased with them. Its the oldest form of false religion in the books, appease their false god and they may be alright, maybe. Most of these worker's for probably add there works to grace because they feel so unworthy, which all of us are.

Does this affect mature, growing and loving and happy Christians, I don't think so. Will it effect young believers and new born babe's in Christ, you bet it does. God bless!

THERE HE GOES AGAIN. {ref. post #58999} Just like I said, BAIT AND SWITCH, exactly like the psuedo-christian cults are trained to do.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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THERE HE GOES AGAIN. {ref. post #58999} Just like I said, BAIT AND SWITCH, exactly like the psuedo-christian cults are trained to do.
What's a pseudo-christian cult?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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THERE HE GOES AGAIN. {ref. post #58999} Just like I said, BAIT AND SWITCH, exactly like the psuedo-christian cults are trained to do.
What was the 'bait, and what was the 'switch'?

In post 58999 I just asked a simple question: here it is again: What must a person do after they believe in Jesus?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Not by works ( NOT VOID OF WORKS) but by grace thru FAITH.(eph 2:8-9)
Justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.(james 2:24)
Faith that Worketh in Love.(gal 5:6)
Faith and Action Working TOGETHER.(james 2:22)
. . .
Thank you for exposing yourself as a false prophet, with false doctrine.

Deuteronomy 4:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Proverbs 30:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Don’t add to His words, or He will rebuke you, and you will be proved a liar.
 
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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

You need to figure it out for yourself.

We cannot deny the verses in Ephesians.

Saved by faith and not works.
As a result of being saved by faith then God then he has works for us to walk in.

If we fail we are still saved by faith. It does not affect salvation but it sure can affect our walk with God.
But he will deal with us as he knows best.

Don't focus on the worry of losing your salvation.
Focus of the author of your salvation. The one who is the perfector of your faith.
Hebrews 12:1-2
Chapter 12
The Race of Faith
1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Focus of the author of your salvation. The one who is the perfector of your faith.
How better to focus on the author of your salvation than to read and do the words of the author of your salvation?
The author our your salvation says: "forgive or you will not be forgiven of your sins".

Many good Christians on this forum say, that is a commandment, and because it is a commandment, it is not about salvation, so no, we do not have to worry about forgiving people. Jesus will cover our non-forgiving with his blood.

I say, anything that has to do with sins and our Father forgiving those sins, has everything to do with our salvation. Remember, you cannot go into the KOG in sin. So if the Father is not going to forgive your sins if you do not forgive, then your eternal salvation (and your future security) is in jeopardy.

So my focus on the author of my salvation takes the form of listening to his words and what he wants us to do and what he wants us to be like.

Your focus may be a little different. But I feel good about my focus.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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How better to focus on the author of your salvation than to read and do the words of the author of your salvation?
The author our your salvation says: "forgive or you will not be forgiven of your sins".

Many good Christians on this forum say, that is a commandment, and because it is a commandment, it is not about salvation, so no, we do not have to worry about forgiving people. Jesus will cover our non-forgiving with his blood.

I say, anything that has to do with sins and our Father forgiving those sins, has everything to do with our salvation. Remember, you cannot go into the KOG in sin. So if the Father is not going to forgive your sins if you do not forgive, then your eternal salvation (and your future security) is in jeopardy.

So my focus on the author of my salvation takes the form of listening to his words and what he wants us to do and what he wants us to be like.

Your focus may be a little different. But I feel good about my focus.
As I do mine.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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My Pastor is Dr. Gil Rugh, and even he mentioned today in his sermon "the obedience is a test to whether we LOVE HIM. Those who do not LOVE Him, do not obey HIM." DID YOU NOTICE THAT HE SPECIFICALLY SAID IT IS PART OF OUR LOVE FOR HIM, and not part of our SALVATION. YES we are a OSAS {Once Saved, Always Saved} Church.

Another Blessing this morning, is a song that we sang this morning. I had never heard it before, and it really blessed my heart.

WHEN DEATH WAS ARRESTED:

[video=youtube;uMsMiluCUUI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMsMiluCUUI[/video]
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Oh please, you need to read your bible more often, please refer your questions to another thank you.
I know it is exhausting, but stay with me here. This answer is the kind of answer that tells me you do not know which comes first. Because all you had to write is sanctification then justification, or the other way around. But you didn't or couldn't answer.

If you are not quite sure, just tell me and I will ask others on the forum, in fact all others have read my post to you and have not responded, so I am suggesting that no one on the forum knows.


If someone knows which comes first, sanctification or justification, let me know? It is a legitimate question.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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My Pastor is Dr. Gil Rugh, and even he mentioned today in his sermon "the obedience is a test to whether we LOVE HIM. Those who do not LOVE Him, do not obey HIM." DID YOU NOTICE THAT HE SPECIFICALLY SAID IT IS PART OF OUR LOVE FOR HIM, and not part of our SALVATION. YES we are a OSAS {Once Saved, Always Saved} Church.

Another Blessing this morning, is a song that we sang this morning. I had never heard it before, and it really blessed my heart.

WHEN DEATH WAS ARRESTED:

[video=youtube;uMsMiluCUUI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMsMiluCUUI[/video]
I agree totally and have said it many times.

We obey because we love him.
Not To be saved.

John 14:23-24


23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.