Explain to me why a scripture that talks about making you sinless (or not) is not about salvation?
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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Explain to me why a scripture that talks about making you sinless (or not) is not about salvation?
Greeting with a Holy Kiss and helping each other with every provision needed.
Paul is speaking of the freedom everyone has been given to make the choice.
And lets not forget his background involvement with a legal sect of judaism a }teacher of the torah.
No binding oaths or contracts from any man made authority.
An Honorable bond of Peace.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;
and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
OK, let's say that Jesus is talking about the leadership of the church, who were obviously believers and were saved. Jesus is telling them that they are fallen, that they must repent, or they would be removed from out of their place. If Jesus is using this type of verbiage, he again is dispelling OSAS for whoever he was talking to.
BTW your use of the word 'circular' was used inapropriately, right? I thought so.
J
joefizz
Guest
Why?
Just because they were "apart of churches"?
Anyone can be apart of a church have roles and "not be saved" in fact many people "play on" being members of churches to "look saved".
Compare the full text of romans 10 to Devarim 30(deuteronomy
Blessed be the name
devarim 30
‘Who will go up into the sky for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?’ 13
Likewise, it isn’t beyond the sea(sh'ol), so that you need to ask,
‘Who will cross the sea(from death to life) for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?’ 14
On the contrary, the Word is very close to you — in your mouth, even in your heart; therefore, you can do it!
Romans 10
Brothers, my heart’s deepest desire and my prayer to God for Isra’el is for their salvation; 2 for I can testify to their zeal for God. But it is not based on correct understanding; 3 for, since they are unaware of God’s way of making people righteous and instead seek to set up their own, they have not submitted themselves to God’s way of making people righteous. 4 For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.
5 For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the Torah that the person who does these things will attain life through them.[a] 6 Moreover, the righteousness grounded in trusting says:
“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend to heaven?’” —
that is, to bring the Messiah down — 7 or,
“‘Who will descend into Sh’ol?’” —
that is, to bring the Messiah up from the dead. 8 What, then, does it say?
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart.”[b]—
that is, the word about trust which we proclaim, namely, 9 that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered. 10 For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgement and thus continues toward deliverance. 11 For the passage quoted says that everyone who rests his trust on him will not be humiliated.[c] 12 That means that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile — Adonai is the same for everyone, rich toward everyone who calls on him, 13 since everyone who calls on the name of Adonai will be delivered.[d]
14 But how can they call on someone if they haven’t trusted in him? And how can they trust in someone if they haven’t heard about him? And how can they hear about someone if no one is proclaiming him? 15 And how can people proclaim him unless God sends them? — as the TaNaKh puts it,
“How beautiful are the feet of those announcing good news about good things!”[e]
16 The problem is that they haven’t all paid attention to the Good News and obeyed it. For Yesha‘yahu says,
“Adonai, who has trusted what he has heard from us?”[f]
17 So trust comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through a word proclaimed about the Messiah.
18 “But, I say, isn’t it rather that they didn’t hear?” No, they did hear —
“Their voice has gone out throughout the whole world
and their words to the ends of the earth.”[g]
19 “But, I say, isn’t it rather that Isra’el didn’t understand?”
“I will provoke you to jealousy over a non-nation,
over a nation void of understanding I will make youangry.”[h]
20 Moreover, Yesha‘yahu boldly says,
“I was found by those who were not looking for me,
I became known to those who did not ask for me”;[i]
21 but to Isra’el he says,
“All day long I held out my hands
to a people who kept disobeying and contradicting.”
So Paul goes to Ephesus and finds converts and before he leaves he ordains 'elders' the local leaders of the church there.
Then he comes back to Ephesus and finds that the church is growing and so he has a meeting with his 'elders' and picks one of them to be the 'bishop' of that local community. The 'elders', and the 'bishop' obviously had to be strong believers of Jesus Christ, had the HS, and trusted that they were saved, otherwise, Paul would not have called them to leadership reponsibilities.
So If Jesus is going after these people, the idea of OSAS is really not viable according to Jesus.
originally posted by dcontroversal
….ALL who exercise saving faith into the work of Christ will have your sin debt covered, the imputed righteousness of Christ which = saved, sealed, justified and sanctified in Christ eternally…..
ElAmor
What do you mean by "exercise" isn't it to practice and not just say and claim or just a lip service? Do you preach about a genuine saving Faith without doing anything? Is preaching not a work? Assuming that Faith alone saves, can a person have Faith and be saved without someone preaching to them the Gospel of salvation?
If you are a preacher, can you say that you are not doing a work? If it is so then what are you doing? Is preaching the Gospel of our salvation irrelevant or unnecessary to our salvation? Does it embellish or add anything to your Faith ALONE doctrine?
dcon’s reply;
Take 1 second and actually think about and ponder what this thread is about.....serious.....it is about HOW ONE IS SAVED not WHAT THEY DO AFTER THEY ARE SAVED.....it IS FAITH ALONE THAT SAVES.....end of story........!
ElAmor
If “ Faith ALONE" saves, can one have faith without hearing the message? The verses below proves that a work is needed and essential to salvation….PREACHING.
It is not of ourselves that we may not boast.( ephesians 2:8-9 ) A Faith that works in Love.( galatians 5:6 ) A “selfless LOVE" that thinks about the welfare and SALVATION OF OTHERS and not just his own interests.( philippians 2:3-4, 1 john 3:16-18 )
Romans 10:14-17 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And HOW CAN THEY HEAR WITHOUT SOMEONE PREACHING TO THEM? And how can they preach UNLESS THEY ARE SENT? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH, just as the Father COMMANDED US. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had FROM THE BEGINNING. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE. Many DECEIVERS, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as COMING IN THE FLESH, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the DECEIVER and the ANTICHRIST. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who RUNS AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE in the TEACHING OF CHRIST does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him SHARES IN HIS WICKED WORK.
Who are those RUNNING AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST?
They are those who CLAIM SALVATION is by Faith ALONE and ONCE SAVED they are ALWAYS SAVED therefore rejecting God’s Laws and commands which are in fact God’s own words, who says that even obedience to God cannot save anyone because they are works and Faith ALONE saves.
Who then is the deceiver and the ANTICHRIST?
They are those who do not continue in the teaching about WALKING IN LOVE which is WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. Who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh by the mere fact that they reject the LAW that prophesied about Jesus as coming in the flesh.
1 John 2:1-6 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. THE MAN WHO SAYS, “I KNOW HIM,” BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.
….-JESUS HIMSELF TAUGHT THAT WE SHOULD OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.
Matthew 19:17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.
Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
….Does the true Gospel teaches disobedience? NO!!!
The True Gospel teaches LOVE and OBEDIENCE and not DISOBEDIENCE.
So whoever is teaching that OBEDIENCE to the commandments cannot be added to FAITH for salvation is rejecting God’s and Jesus’ commands to walk in obedience to His commands and it is clear in the bible who they truly are. (2 john 1:1-11)
Hebrews 5:7-9 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.
So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics and Mormons) use this verse to try and support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by loving one another and practicing righteousness and not sin (John 13:34: 1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.
Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
Correct direct answer to my direct question would be, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..” (Acts 16:31)
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Here is Luther's method of interpretation:
In other words, you cannot use an interpretation of JAMES, when it contradicts the Gospels, or even when it contradicts {as I pointed out} the writings of Paul.
Now that Lectures in number 4. was given by MARTIN LUTHER HIMSELF. He concludes to use a quote from JAMES to justify Obedience is a FALSE DOCTRINE. You are SAVED FIRST, and by the FRUIT, you can tell the TREE. A good tree, will eventually produce good fruit. Your WORKS DO NOT SAVE YOU, GOD DOES. It will produce good fruit, if the Seed is good.
It cannot be the other way around.
John 14:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If you love Me {<- There is SALVATION - the Seed.},
you will keep My commandments. {<- There is the fruit you will bear.}
That is exactly what MARTIN LUTHER was talking about.
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Brovo VCO, Noah's ark was not built with one plank of wood but many pieces fitted together to save humanity. Like wise the bible is fitted together with many sections perfectly. The people who take one verse from the bible James 2:17, and pretend to make a doctrine of works salvation are missing the boat, 
, one piece of wood makes not a boat; And so they foolishly go on to hammer away day after day and say look, look, look, when their foolish interpretation has been wrong all of this time.
Will they look at the entire Cannon of Scripture or will they stay stuck on this one little piece of wood that can never save their souls. It is doubtful theses workers for salvation will ever change their mind because hey they like their little piece of wood....
Hammer away you foolish workers and boast of your works for your salvation; "For by grace have you been saved it is a gift of God lest any man shall boast."Ephesians2:8,9
, one piece of wood makes not a boat; And so they foolishly go on to hammer away day after day and say look, look, look, when their foolish interpretation has been wrong all of this time.Will they look at the entire Cannon of Scripture or will they stay stuck on this one little piece of wood that can never save their souls. It is doubtful theses workers for salvation will ever change their mind because hey they like their little piece of wood....
Hammer away you foolish workers and boast of your works for your salvation; "For by grace have you been saved it is a gift of God lest any man shall boast."Ephesians2:8,9
You can hammer your foolish self to death on James2:17 and neglect the rest of the entire bible that say's we are "Saved by Grace and "Not by Works", lest any man shall boast. Ehp2:8,9. Every stroke of Noah's hammer was an act of God's Grace. You workers for salvation need to get on the boat and leave your foolish thinking behind.
I can see the faces of the people who were left behind when the doors of the ark closed, "Wait what happened, we want to go too." and there lain down in front of them is that little left over piece of wood to remind them of God's Grace, what a pity.
I can see the faces of the people who were left behind when the doors of the ark closed, "Wait what happened, we want to go too." and there lain down in front of them is that little left over piece of wood to remind them of God's Grace, what a pity.
You can hammer your foolish self to death on James2:17 and neglect the rest of the entire bible that say's we are "Saved by Grace and "Not by Works", lest any man shall boast. Ehp2:8,9. Every stroke of Noah's hammer was an act of God's Grace. You workers for salvation need to get on the boat and leave your foolish thinking behind.
I can see the faces of the people who were left behind when the doors of the ark closed, "Wait what happened, we want to go too." and there lain down in front of them is that little left over piece of wood to remind them of God's Grace, what a pity.
There is why I do not use nails and more. I use T-25 or Square Drive Deck Screws.
Never by Phillips Deck Screws for this reason:
The are the almost full proof, an go in STRAIGHT and TRUE, no bent nails and no stripped Phillips head.
Just like SALVATION BY GRACE true gospel, NO BENDING NAILS AND TROUBLESOME STRIPPED PHILLIPS HEADS.
Yep these screws look true and trust worthy to me. All of this informal arguing going on about James Ch2 is about their puffed up pride. Yes Jesus Saves but I need to finish the work or I will lose my eternal salvation which is false. Until the Hoy Spirit reveals the truth supernaturally to them they will continue on in their unbelief. Jesus Save's eternally, (forever).
There is why I do not use nails and more. I use T-25 or Square Drive Deck Screws.
Never by Phillips Deck Screws for this reason:
The are the almost full proof, an go in STRAIGHT and TRUE, no bent nails and no stripped Phillips head.
Just like SALVATION BY GRACE true gospel, NO BENDING NAILS AND TROUBLESOME STRIPPED PHILLIPS HEADS.
The Bible is quite clear on the issue. We are saved by grace (free gift) through faith on Jesus so no one can boast. This faith will then produce works. Works are required to prove faith is not dead since the Bible states faith without works is dead.
Leadership? Can you read and or understand plain English? Who said anything about leadership....? and no, the word circular meant exactly that and it is not about salvation....wake up man!
The always hidden agenda of workers for salvation is that they will say "see", without Grace plus Works you will lose your salvation. And they will always prop up OSAS as a starting point for their faulty gospel. If you boil the cabbage down this is what is always behind their argument, "see" you can lose your "eternal salvation", it is the same across the board.
Is the eternal security of the believer found in the Holy Bible, yes it is, is the eternal security of the believer taught from the pulpit throughout mainstream Christianity around the world, yes it is. Will the Grace plus Works people ever understand that Christian's are saved unto good works, but we are not saved by our good works; Saved unto good works, not by them.
Will worker's for, ever see the light, highly doubtful, they love boasting about how great they are. If you "take away boasting" of their works, they may actually have to fall prostrate before God and show a little humility as did Jonah. Most worker's for, just plain ol' don't believe they have value enough for God to let them into heaven, hence they must add their wonderful works to pad the entry fee. However, "Jesus paid it all, all to Him we owe", simple gospel.
"Salvation comes from the LORD." Jonah2:9
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I agree. To understand an issue you must take into consideration ALL verses in context on that issue. There are books titled" Systematic Theology" by several authors plus similar works with different titles that help you find all verses on a particular Issue. Using one of these books all verses on an issue can be found. These books will have some text about the issue. Most likely with a bias for a certain denomination. You can make up your own mind what these verses mean!!!!!Brovo VCO, Noah's ark was not built with one plank of wood but many pieces fitted together to save humanity. Like wise the bible is fitted together with many sections perfectly. The people who take one verse from the bible James 2:17, and pretend to make a doctrine of works salvation are missing the boat,
Will they look at the entire Cannon of Scripture or will they stay stuck on this one little piece of wood that can never save their souls. It is doubtful theses workers for salvation will ever change their mind because hey they like their little piece of wood....
Hammer away you foolish workers and boast of your works for your salvation; "For by grace have you been saved it is a gift of God lest any man shall boast."Ephesians2:8,9