Not By Works

[Stunnedbygrace]

I hope you are not getting angry at me, because that would mean you want to kill me?

No! I'm not angry with you! And you only truly disappointed me one time, awhile back, right before you were banned. I'm glad to see you back and glad they let you return.

 

[gb9]

??? Have you something to share on anger ..... I am all ears, dear contributor.

nothing that you would hear and take seriously. you would just spin into a self-love fest for you.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hello Stunned,

You do exagerate and go for impact. People loath many things, not necessarily associated with
people but attitudes. They also get angry at certain statements or approaches.

It is a big leap to say someone wants to murder a punk rocker, or someone who puts pins in their
face, or talks rudely to everyone. Some get angry for instance at people who carry guns and feel
it is their right to blow people away. They are not wanting to kill them, in fact the opposite.
And anger might well be the appropriate response to someone who carries a gun in an inappropriate
situation.

But I would observe for you any anger is murder, even if not aimed at individuals, or am I getting
you wrong?

Am I exaggerating? I'm not the one who said this:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[SUP][a][/SUP] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ [SUP]22 [/SUP]But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP][c][/SUP] will be subject to judgment.

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21“You have heard that our ancestors were told, ‘You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.’[SUP]d[/SUP] 22But I say, if you are even angry with someone,[SUP]e[/SUP] you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot,[SUP]f[/SUP] you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone,[SUP]g[/SUP] you are in danger of the fires of hell.[SUP]h[/SUP]

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hello Stunned,

You do exagerate and go for impact. People loath many things, not necessarily associated with
people but attitudes. They also get angry at certain statements or approaches.

It is a big leap to say someone wants to murder a punk rocker, or someone who puts pins in their
face, or talks rudely to everyone. Some get angry for instance at people who carry guns and feel
it is their right to blow people away. They are not wanting to kill them, in fact the opposite.
And anger might well be the appropriate response to someone who carries a gun in an inappropriate
situation.

But I would observe for you any anger is murder, even if not aimed at individuals, or am I getting
you wrong?

We aren't talking about anger at "things." We are talking about anger at "people."

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

But peter, you miss my point, as you have for a few years now.
If to even have anger, loathing, hatred, revenge, in my heart at someone means I have already murdered and am subject to judgement, then who can ever be saved??

In our conversation a few years back you said: but I have a wife and children! It is impossible to never get angry at them for how they are acting and treating me! And you were right!

So then, does this mean that what Jesus said isn't the truth?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

But peter, you miss my point, as you have for a few years now.
If to even have anger, loathing, hatred, revenge, in my heart at someone means I have already murdered and am subject to judgement, then who can ever be saved??

In our conversation a few years back you said: but I have a wife and children! It is impossible to never get angry at them for how they are acting and treating me! And you were right!

So then, does this mean that what Jesus said isn't the truth?

Jesus shows me with these words that I am a murderer, subject to judgement. And you yourself, have admitted it is impossible to never have anger in your heart at another, which makes you a murderer too, subject to judgement. So you SEE why He died for you.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Jesus shows me with these words that I am a murderer, subject to judgement. And you yourself, have admitted it is impossible to never have anger in your heart at another, which makes you a murderer too, subject to judgement. So you SEE why He died for you.

Hi Stunned,

You write as if I do not understand sin, repentance, confession, faith and forgiveness.
I know what I was as a sinner, murderer, adulterer, thief, abuser, rebellious against God
and my parents. There is no sin which I was not capable of.

In Christ though we are saints, redeemed, holy, pure, cleansed, walking in the Holy Spirit
Some may stumble, fall into sin, repent and find their way back.

So I know why He died for me, and I know what redemption and salvation is.
You remind me of an evangelist who believes everyone they meet needs converting even
when they know the Lord.

Grace and peace to you

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi Stunned,

You write as if I do not understand sin, repentance, confession, faith and forgiveness.
I know what I was as a sinner, murderer, adulterer, thief, abuser, rebellious against God
and my parents. There is no sin which I was not capable of.

In Christ though we are saints, redeemed, holy, pure, cleansed, walking in the Holy Spirit
Some may stumble, fall into sin, repent and find their way back.

So I know why He died for me, and I know what redemption and salvation is.
You remind me of an evangelist who believes everyone they meet needs converting even
when they know the Lord.

Grace and peace to you

I have called you brother for many years now, peter. I do not think you need converting. I do think your understanding tweaks the way you see scripture sometimes though. Because our conversation began years ago with you saying anger at someone is not murder. My failure, my anger, my murdering, does not make what Jesus said to be not true.

So, with men it is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.

 

[LightLoveHope]

We aren't talking about anger at "things." We are talking about anger at "people."

I hope you know about anger management.
One basic issue is to separate the cause of annoyance and anger and the person who
causes the response. Once you see you become the victim of the behavior not the
person, you can begin to be free of anger and its implications.

Where is our loyalty? Here and now in our rights and possessions or in heaven
with Christ? So anger talks about how we view ourselves, rather than others, and
what we want from them.

Grace and peace to you

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I hope you know about anger management.
One basic issue is to separate the cause of annoyance and anger and the person who
causes the response. Once you see you become the victim of the behavior not the
person, you can begin to be free of anger and its implications.

Where is our loyalty? Here and now in our rights and possessions or in heaven
with Christ? So anger talks about how we view ourselves, rather than others, and
what we want from them.

Grace and peace to you

No person CAUSES my response. I MYSELF cause my response. They are not responsible for my response.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Here is what I know about anger management. It is to keep the anger inside and not let it explode outward. And that is very good for society. But that's just keeping the outside of my cup clean, while inside, the murder, hatred, anger, revenge, still occurs.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Just to put this right, anger at a person that continues is murdering them.
I have seen it in people, and if they could when anger becomes hatred they
would murder the target of their feelings.

There is though the question to be annoyed at someone about their behaviour
and to express this is not murder. Some extend anger itself as being evil. This
leads to anger suppression which leads to a very angry unhappy life.

This makes this subject difficult, and the difference between anger as part of life,
and anger that is murder. But I suspect you cannot accept this.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Just to put this right, anger at a person that continues is murdering them.
I have seen it in people, and if they could when anger becomes hatred they
would murder the target of their feelings.

There is though the question to be annoyed at someone about their behaviour
and to express this is not murder. Some extend anger itself as being evil. This
leads to anger suppression which leads to a very angry unhappy life.

This makes this subject difficult, and the difference between anger as part of life,
and anger that is murder. But I suspect you cannot accept this.

To have the anger means I have already committed the murder, according to my Lord. To continue in the anger just means I murder the person over and over again. (I'm not talking about annoyance.)

 

[LightLoveHope]

Here is what I know about anger management. It is to keep the anger inside and not let it explode outward. And that is very good for society. But that's just keeping the outside of my cup clean, while inside, the murder, hatred, anger, revenge, still occurs.

Hi Stunned,

Anger management is about letting anger out and seeing it is a simple stimulus,
reaction behavior pattern. Anger is dangerous because it is such a strong emotion,
it needs to be allowed to be expressed and then worked through in context.

With discipline, and application, anger flare ups stop, because the causes are not
there and are interpreted differently.

So anger management is about learning all we do socially and in interactions relies
on our own interpretations of what matters and what is ours.

Jesus changes this fundamentally in knowing we are the children of the King,
members of the Kingdom of Heaven, called to show His love as expressed through
the cross to all we meet.

 

[LightLoveHope]

To have the anger means I have already committed the murder, according to my Lord. To continue in the anger just means I murder the person over and over again. (I'm not talking about annoyance.)

I have not seen this before, but anger, when worked out, is often a choice.
So Jesus is declaring the choice to let annoyance become anger is the equivalent
of murder. I can see how this works, and something we can address by choice.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I have not seen this before, but anger, when worked out, is often a choice.
So Jesus is declaring the choice to let annoyance become anger is the equivalent
of murder. I can see how this works, and something we can address by choice.

I think I can see this...
I wake in the morning and mom has left her dirty icecream bowl laying on the counter, not even rinsed. And she has thrown her tissue towards the trashcan but it landed on the floor near it rather than in it. The dishes she said she would do are all there still in the sink, dirty.

The temptation comes to be angry with her. I give into this temptation and fume and resent her while I am cleaning everything up. Halfway through, I realize I am murdering her. I stop and ask God for help.

This goes on in the same manner for quite a few mornings until one morning, I see and feel the temptation to begin muttering and murdering WHEN it comes instead of after I've drowned in it already for 15 minutes. So I ask for help at that moment of temptation instead of AFTER I am already mired in murder. Instead of sinking into it, I immediately cry to God.

Temptation is not sin. It is only sin when we advert to it and sink down into it and become mired in it.

 

[joefizz]

lighten up everybody!

 

[Magenta]

--I was thinking of ignoring your provocative way of discussing something since you were the one who commented on my post and when i warned you of people pretending to be friends (which causes you not to see their faults and for them not to see yours), you instantly called me a hypocrite.

--If it is JUDGING to warn you about people pretending to be your friends and thus make me a hypocrite then what do you call someone hating another for telling the TRUTH and then calling him a hypocrite?

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I don't need you to tell me who my friends are. The fact that you think you have some right to do so, and that you sit in judgment of others saying some pretend to be my friend, is extremely presumptuous of you. You pass judgment on others and post Scriptures as if judging others is wrong and then wonder why you are called a hypocrite for judging others. It is as I said some do: feigning ignorance and playing the victim. I "commented" on your post because YOU addressed ME. It is called dialogue.
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--So who are those pretending to be your friends?

--They are those whom you defend because they defend you even if they know that you are wrong.

Another non-answer. You are wrong and refuse to acknowledge it, instead saying I am wrong. I'll bet you think you have a non-provocative method of addressing people. It is always someone else doing things the wrong way, right?
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[joeyruready]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I havent read this thread, dont have the time. If i am repeating things allready said please forgive me i will try to follow it awhile as i have time.

For it is ​

by

​

grace

you have been ​

saved

, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not ​

by

works, so that no one can boast.

This righteousness is given through ​

faith

in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,​

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God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by ​

faith

. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—​

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For we maintain that a person is justified by ​

faith

apart from the works of the law.​

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For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your ​

faith

and are saved.

​

Consequently, ​

faith

comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.​

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Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. [SUP]20 [/SUP]You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[SUP][d][/SUP]? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[SUP][e][/SUP] and he was called God’s friend. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith

I believe and love all this scripture, each verse pure and perfect. As I look across all these verses and the many more in my heart i see this truth, There is work that is done by the law. This work is pointless and has no power in it.

Then there is work that is by faith. How is this different. I dont believe in works/salvation so dont mistake me. I believe the word however, Faith is really everything I DO because of what I believe.
It really doesnt matter what we believe. Until we put it into practice we can not know if it is true or not. I believe in gravity. I am sitting in a chair not floating. This is evidence to me that gravity is truth. I also believe i can fly. I can stand on the edge of a cliff and jump off. People think its crazy. It is beautiful to fly around and look below to ride the waves of the wind. Faith is that step off the cliff. It is where we put what we believe into practice. This is not obeying laws or rules and regulations which much of the church is still burdened by today, and Jesus cursed the pharasees and saducees for doing. "you heap heavy burdens on others while you yourselves are unwilling to lift a finger" I hear people doing this in these chat groups all day long. We are free from the law yet demanding others fulfill the law? Those who do this will be judged by the way they judge others. The threads i see over and over again brutalizing people who are gay, same thing all over again. If you loved them you would realize they are weak. God knows they are weak. God told you to serve them in love didnt he? What does that look like? Does that mean telling them they are going to hell for continuing in their sin? Still throwing stones. The evil those do who persecure others after having recieved GRACE from God, will receive their justly deserved condemnation. God's word is clear.

Faith and grace are gifts of God, no one can be saved by works of the law. The law came to show us sin so we could know we needed a redeemer and what our redemption would look like. Jesus fulfilled the law, all of us who live in him and he in us are free from the law. We must use our freedom to live by faith, which means act out what we believe. If i believe I love God then i need to OBey God which the word tells us is how to love him. IF i want to love others as the word commands, then I need to obey them also. certainly we have all heard, "serve one another in love" The work of faith has nothing to do with the law but everything to do with God's promises. AS paul wrote, whatever you have learned from me or heard from me or recieved from me put it into Practice and the God of peace will be with you. FAith is all about Practicing what we believe, out of love for God because of his grace to us.
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[Magenta]

magenta may have been a little effected by the thread.

Funny, you just called this thread pointless with zero edification, and then turn around and say we should be peaceable after YOU insult everyone who has posted messages that are edifying. In order for you to know that there is no edification in this thread you would have to have read every message. Have you done so? I really very much HIGHLY doubt it, especially after telling us you avoid this thread! Therefore, you seek to give a false impression of your ability to judge this thread while passing erroneous judgment on it, and then further judge from there, telling us we should be peaceable among all the falseness that is presented, from you as from others! Since you have so little experience with the people who repeatedly present falsehoods here, perhaps you should not have said anything.
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personally i have avoided this thread for its very premise, we should be peacable amongst one another.
typically a q and a is simple enough for corresponding with one another in writing.
it helps us learn from one another.