Not By Works

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S

Studyman

Senior Member
#56,081
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
#56,081
mailmandan said:
You continue to read the Bible through the lens of works salvation (salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works) and you also continue to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture.

The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but are the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of their heart.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we also see in Romans 2:6-10. Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good (also see Romans 2:10) and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil (also see Romans 2:9).

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

Description of believers (those who love Me/guard My Word). Description of unbelievers (those who do not love Me/do not guard My Words).
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Are we to use God's Definition of Good and Evil, believer and unbeliever? Or man's? Can you reject God's Word and still be considered "Good" in His eyes? Can you preach things about His Word which are untrue, and still be considered "Good" in God's Eyes?

The Mainstream preachers of Christ's time rejected Christ's teaching, not because it was against the Word of God, but because it was against their own religious doctrines and traditions of man.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

If a man claims to know Jesus, but doesn't "Walk even as He walked", does that person have His Spirit? If a man claims to know Jesus, but rejects many of His Commandments, does He have the Spirit of Truth?

The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time rejected, silenced, insulted, discredited, and ultimately killed Jesus, because He showed them from the Word's of the very God of Abraham they claimed to serve, where they were deceivers.

Does this same judgment of Christ exist today?
 
L

LightLoveHope

Banned
#56,082
Jan 25, 2018
673
10
0
#56,082
The academic view on dispensationalism.

Is There a “Dispensational” Approach to the Sermon on the Mount? - 1024project.com

Dispensationalism is a complex subject with differences between different groups.
As some here hold these varying views, to different degrees, it might be helpful, rather than telling
people to not comment, to actually look at positions various groups have taken.

We all have our own views, and in the end this is what matters.

My knowledge to date is those who dismiss the gospels, do so on a dispensational foundation.
Now if you want to say there is a different view, I am open to listening.

Based on Jesus being our Lord, to dismiss His words you need to be sure you are right.
I am a simple soul who trusts the apostles wrote the gospels because it applies to us,
equally the whole of scripture, which is good for teaching and learning the ways of God.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
2 Timothy 3:16
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#56,083
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#56,083
Budman said:
That would make us stronger than the blood of Jesus, because the Bible says His blood took away the sins of the entire world.

By your reasoning, salvation would not be a gift, and grace would be merited.
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A lot of the dogmas pushed can be boiled down to nothing more than a works based false gospel.....
 
S

Studyman

Senior Member
#56,084
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
#56,084
MichaelOwen said:
Even in todays age, you're going to have the Pharisees of Christians come forth, and they know more than we do, they are self righteous, they are all about works and being held accountable under the old law......it's better to be humble and learn then to be proud and foolish.
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The Pharisees had rejected the "Old Law" and created their own doctrines from the "Commandments of Men", according to Jesus. If you mean there will be those who "Come in Christ's Name, preaching that He is truly the Messiah, but preach lies about God and His Word as did the Pharisees then yes, this is absolutely true. Jesus said we are to "Take Heed" we are not deceived by those who say Lord, Lord, but keep not His Sayings.

It is good to listen and adhere to the teaching and warnings of the Great God of Abraham who became Flesh to show us the way.
 
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LightLoveHope

Banned
#56,085
Jan 25, 2018
673
10
0
#56,085
"dude, you have no clue what dispensationalsim is. I have been all my life. And no churhc i ever went to teaches the way you insist they do. And there have been many as I travelled the country in the military. So please stop. You making a fool of yourself.

Dispensationalsim does not split the gospel up. Maybe a small select portion does. But mainstream, dispensationalsim do not do this. So please. Once again, If you do not know what your talking about. Then just don’t say a word.

You are lying, be it ignorance, or just unwilling to learn. But either way. Stop with the nonsense. "

My comment to the above approach, is I am sorry your approach to knowledge is to be dismissive.

Most people say where they fit into the scheme of things to make their position clear, and
hope to win people over to their view. If actually one is not sure what ones view is and how
to defend it, the dismissive approach is often taken.

On a discussion forum, it would be more helpful to put your case, and why you hold it,
because maybe others will agree.

My view on dispensation, is Jesus in dying upon the cross, removing the need for the temple,
and making us the Holy temples of the Holy Spirit, that is a different way of interacting with
men, though the morality stays the same, the form is different. It changes the law and how
it applies to the believer, and so in a loose way I would describe this as a different framework.

So the morality Jesus preaches is the morality of the Kingdom, and not just for the jews,
which some claim is the case.

I look forward to more robust openness on ones views and justifications, because I know
none of us are standing still, and there is always much to learn and grow into, Praise the Lord.

As a passing observation, if I am not fairly representing things, please tell me so I can get it
right. I do not mind people calling me anything, I am only concerned about the truth and
discovering more of Christ. So I will ignore irrelevant points and address things that seem
to matter, grace and peace to you , in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#56,087
#56,087
LightLoveHope said:
"dude, you have no clue what dispensationalsim is. I have been all my life. And no churhc i ever went to teaches the way you insist they do. And there have been many as I travelled the country in the military. So please stop. You making a fool of yourself.

Dispensationalsim does not split the gospel up. Maybe a small select portion does. But mainstream, dispensationalsim do not do this. So please. Once again, If you do not know what your talking about. Then just don’t say a word.

You are lying, be it ignorance, or just unwilling to learn. But either way. Stop with the nonsense. "

My comment to the above approach, is I am sorry your approach to knowledge is to be dismissive.

Most people say where they fit into the scheme of things to make their position clear, and
hope to win people over to their view. If actually one is not sure what ones view is and how
to defend it, the dismissive approach is often taken.

On a discussion forum, it would be more helpful to put your case, and why you hold it,
because maybe others will agree.

My view on dispensation, is Jesus in dying upon the cross, removing the need for the temple,
and making us the Holy temples of the Holy Spirit, that is a different way of interacting with
men, though the morality stays the same, the form is different. It changes the law and how
it applies to the believer, and so in a loose way I would describe this as a different framework.

So the morality Jesus preaches is the morality of the Kingdom, and not just for the jews,
which some claim is the case.

I look forward to more robust openness on ones views and justifications, because I know
none of us are standing still, and there is always much to learn and grow into, Praise the Lord.

As a passing observation, if I am not fairly representing things, please tell me so I can get it
right. I do not mind people calling me anything, I am only concerned about the truth and
discovering more of Christ. So I will ignore irrelevant points and address things that seem
to matter, grace and peace to you , in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Click to expand...
My approach to what other people believe is to listen to them, Figure out if I was wrong about what they believe. Then correct my thinking about what they believe. And even after this, If I still misrepresent them in any means. Be humble enough to admit you made a mistake. Then move on. If you disagree with them, then you are open to discussing why you disagree with them.

To continually bash them and lie about what they believe, And continue to excuse yourself for doing it. Is just plain unchristlike, foolish, and wrong.

If we want to discuss you view on a particular subject (like says dispensationalsim) then says, This is my view of it. Then lets discuss your view of it.

But for once in your time on CC, can you please stop slandering a group of people who do not believe what you claim they do? Is this to hard for you to comprehend?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#56,088
#56,088
Budman said:
That would make us stronger than the blood of Jesus, because the Bible says His blood took away the sins of the entire world.

By your reasoning, salvation would not be a gift, and grace would be merited.
Click to expand...
It is amazing how many supermen we have on CC. Who think they are more powerful than God.
 
L

LightLoveHope

Banned
#56,089
Jan 25, 2018
673
10
0
#56,089
Let's dissect this:
Implying others are lost.
Bearing false witness.
Suggesting they are demon possessed, or indwelt by Satan.
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I find this an interesting attempt to flip a position.

If you do not have Christ, you are lost.

And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Rom 8:9

If one does not do that which is right, but attacks those who do, one is defending sin.

He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
1 John 3:7-8

So what do we all do? Where is our heart?

Most are driven by the world and their passions.
Some maybe possessed, but this is unlikely.

To suggest it is not the Holy Spirit guiding people, is not to claim they are possessed,
just they are not walking in Gods will.

It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.
Titus 2:12
 
Budman

Budman

Senior Member
#56,090
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,999
113
#56,090
If one does not do that which is right, but attacks those who do, one is defending sin.
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We are contending your motives for doing right. If you're doing good works to glorify God and store up treasure in heaven, those are the right reasons. If you're doing them as a means to gain or retain salvation, that's utterly wrong.

I reject and resent the charge we are "defending sin".
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#56,092
#56,092
Dispensation. In biblical terms, it means seasons.

The view was first formed as a means to historically seperate different “seasons” or “dispensations” into groups. As a way in whihc things on earth, or the way God dealt with mankind, differed.

ie. We have the age of innocence. WHich is just a term which means that mankind was innocent. He had not fallen. There is not a different gospel. A gospel was not needed,

Any age or season post the age of innocence had the same gospel. What differed is the way God dealt with people on earth. God did not deal with people purée law the same way he did law. he does not deal with us in this modern church age the way he dealt with Isreal in the age of law.

Yet no matter what age you pick, the founders of this view did not teach that the gospel CHANGED in each age, this is a false view (although some hold to it)

oh and by the way, No dispensationalsim person I have ever met would say the sermon on the mount does not apply to us today.

I suggest a certain member of CC stop going to the internet to get his information. He has more than enough people here that he can ask if he wishes to find out what people believe.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#56,095
#56,095
Budman said:
We are contending your motives for doing right. If you're doing good works to glorify God and store up treasure in heaven, those are the right reasons. If you're doing them as a means to gain or retain salvation, that's utterly wrong.

I reject and resent the charge we are "defending sin".
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the dude has lied about so many people since he has arrived, He has no authority or credibility to be judging other people. He needs to repent of his own sins first.

And this strawman about defending sin, He will find out one day who is really defending sin here, My worry is that by the time he finds out, it will be too late.
 
star

star

Senior Member
#56,098
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
2,046
113
North Carolina
#56,098
I think I recognize some of these posters from another site. Yep, I'm pretty sure about this. Their stance hasn't changed one bit.
 
L

LightLoveHope

Banned
#56,100
Jan 25, 2018
673
10
0
#56,100
"My approach to what other people believe is to listen to them, Figure out if I was wrong about what they believe. Then correct my thinking about what they believe. And even after this, If I still misrepresent them in any means. Be humble enough to admit you made a mistake. Then move on. If you disagree with them, then you are open to discussing why you disagree with them.

To continually bash them and lie about what they believe, And continue to excuse yourself for doing it. Is just plain unchristlike, foolish, and wrong.

If we want to discuss you view on a particular subject (like says dispensationalsim) then says, This is my view of it. Then lets discuss your view of it.

But for once in your time on CC, can you please stop slandering a group of people who do not believe what you claim they do? Is this to hard for you to comprehend?"

Again you have missed my point and approach. I am not addressing your approach,
which I do not know. I do know what some dispensationalists have said, and if you
read the article I linked to, it goes through many variations of this.

Your accusation was I was wrong, and I think you will find I am not.
Now if I am not wrong, and you say I am lying, why do you continually want to
act as if you have the moral high ground? Because maybe it does not actually
matter to you, as long as your feelings are vented, wrong or right. :(

Grace and peace to you, I hope you find a place of rest.
 
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