Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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My understanding is that they accepted the mosaic law and the 613 commandments but they then added to it, rules and instructions.
As a result we get the Midrash.
I think the purpose was to clarify the law.
A simple example of this is the Sabbath. Although the were many more.
The 4th commandment.
Keep the Sabbath Holy, not work.
So follow that commandment they created about 30 plus categories of what work meant and within those categories, sub-categories to follow.
So things like how many steps you can take and so on.
The issue that Jesus had with the Pharisees was
That they priced themselves on following not just the mosaic law but the letter of the man made rules designed to clarify the law.
That's why Jesus went at them
Matthew 23:27-28
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Matthew 12:1-8
Chapter 12
Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath
1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!”
3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? 6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
We only have to look at the 7 woes in Matt 23 to see why Jesus had a beef with them.
So yes I would say that they were trying to obey God and his laws, tried to clarify it.
But in doing so all they did was to add burdens on people, burdens that they would not keep or had a get out clause for.
That's why he called them hypocrites.
Alas the church today does the same.
They add to the grace of God.
As a result it's adding works to faith which negates grace and faith for salvation.
Works will follow saving faith.
Those works prepared for us.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
[h=3][/h]
As a result we get the Midrash.
I think the purpose was to clarify the law.
A simple example of this is the Sabbath. Although the were many more.
The 4th commandment.
Keep the Sabbath Holy, not work.
So follow that commandment they created about 30 plus categories of what work meant and within those categories, sub-categories to follow.
So things like how many steps you can take and so on.
The issue that Jesus had with the Pharisees was
That they priced themselves on following not just the mosaic law but the letter of the man made rules designed to clarify the law.
That's why Jesus went at them
Matthew 23:27-28
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Matthew 12:1-8
Chapter 12
Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath
1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!”
3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? 6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
We only have to look at the 7 woes in Matt 23 to see why Jesus had a beef with them.
So yes I would say that they were trying to obey God and his laws, tried to clarify it.
But in doing so all they did was to add burdens on people, burdens that they would not keep or had a get out clause for.
That's why he called them hypocrites.
Alas the church today does the same.
They add to the grace of God.
As a result it's adding works to faith which negates grace and faith for salvation.
Works will follow saving faith.
Those works prepared for us.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
[h=3][/h]
I am in total agreement with your comment. Another way of saying it is true faith produces good works. Which also means faith without works is false faith. It amazes me that people on this site argue strenuously against this claiming it is salvation by works ignoring that it is the other way around, the works are evidence of true faith. Dcontroversal chief among them.
Incorrect.
True faith produces good fruits (works) according to Jesus.
Bad faith produces bad fruits (works) according to Jesus.
Therefore faith without good works is bad faith according to Jesus.
Matthew 7 (Jesus speaking)
True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
True faith produces good fruits (works) according to Jesus.
Bad faith produces bad fruits (works) according to Jesus.
Therefore faith without good works is bad faith according to Jesus.
Matthew 7 (Jesus speaking)
True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
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Still lying I see and if you have read this thread you can plainly see that I have made numerous references fo any fruit or work being the result of faith and salvation....WHY do you KEEP lying?.......how about answer the simple questions......of course you won't why?
a. You cannot because you do not know
b. It destroys your dogma
Still waiting on you to answer a few kindergarten milk questions from the word....
I will break it down and make it even easier to read and answer if there are too many words for you ENDOSCOPY....
Answer the FOLLOWING EASY questions....
HOW does one get placed INTO the VINE?
WHAT WORK places one into the VINE?
HE that BELIEVES in the SON and CONFESSES this BELIEF is ____________ <-WHAT?
WHAT 1 word goes with the bolded ONE right above this question?
a. You cannot because you do not know
b. It destroys your dogma
Still waiting on you to answer a few kindergarten milk questions from the word....
I will break it down and make it even easier to read and answer if there are too many words for you ENDOSCOPY....
Answer the FOLLOWING EASY questions....
HOW does one get placed INTO the VINE?
WHAT WORK places one into the VINE?
HE that BELIEVES in the SON and CONFESSES this BELIEF is ____________ <-WHAT?
WHAT 1 word goes with the bolded ONE right above this question?
E
Yeah, I forgot,
You ignore passages of scripture which prove you wrong. You think the pharisees (even though paul said otherwise) did not think they were righteous because they obeyed the law. You love to excuse your sin while judging others.
You did not refute the passages I gave, Look at them, then point by point show me where they did not say what I said they said.. Then MAYBE we can talk.
You ignore passages of scripture which prove you wrong. You think the pharisees (even though paul said otherwise) did not think they were righteous because they obeyed the law. You love to excuse your sin while judging others.
You did not refute the passages I gave, Look at them, then point by point show me where they did not say what I said they said.. Then MAYBE we can talk.
Thanks....you believe how deceptive these people are all while claiming to be saved and faithful and having good works....
Hey MICROSCOPE........pay attention and then apologize for lying.....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
No one has disputed that bro.....the bible is clear on the following truths
Paul-->Romans-->A man is justified (rendered innocent) before God by faith void of works
James-->James-->A man's invisible faith that justifies before God (void of works) is seen by men in our works
FAITH and FAITH alone saves eternally
FAITH that saves eternally will produce fruit/works....even if but one piece!
Hey MICROSCOPE........pay attention and then apologize for lying.....
Paul-->Romans-->A man is justified (rendered innocent) before God by faith void of works
James-->James-->A man's invisible faith that justifies before God (void of works) is seen by men in our works
FAITH and FAITH alone saves eternally
FAITH that saves eternally will produce fruit/works....even if but one piece!
E
N
Thanks....you believe how deceptive these people are all while claiming to be saved and faithful and having good works....
Hey MICROSCOPE........pay attention and then apologize for lying.....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
No one has disputed that bro.....the bible is clear on the following truths
Paul-->Romans-->A man is justified (rendered innocent) before God by faith void of works
James-->James-->A man's invisible faith that justifies before God (void of works) is seen by men in our works
FAITH and FAITH alone saves eternally
FAITH that saves eternally will produce fruit/works....even if but one piece!
Hey MICROSCOPE........pay attention and then apologize for lying.....
Paul-->Romans-->A man is justified (rendered innocent) before God by faith void of works
James-->James-->A man's invisible faith that justifies before God (void of works) is seen by men in our works
FAITH and FAITH alone saves eternally
FAITH that saves eternally will produce fruit/works....even if but one piece!
it didnt even take me a week to start attacking you
praise God for opening my eyes
without Him im sure id be much worse than these who attack you today
E
Yeah whatever man, They did not obey the law. They could not obey the law. You can not obey the law. And I can not obey the law.
The pharisee did what every religious person does. They gatekeeper the law. Water it down. And think they are righteous because they are obedient to their watered down law.
Yet Jesus still said unless our righteousness exceeds theirs we have no hope. Now he did nto say this to say we can do it, He said this to prove a point. It is impossible to come to God by our own actions. Thats why he hands to die. Everyone knew the pharisees were the most morally upright people in their day. Everyone else were dire sinners compared to them. That was th point Jesus was making, You want to come to me by yourself. You have to be better than them. Good luck with that. Their righteousness is so unrighteous, yet they are BETTER than you. If they will not make it, How do you think you will make it?
Only one man ever obeyed the law in a way required by God (continue in ALL ways and obey EVERY Command) ie perfection.
Maybe when you realise you can not fulfill the law. You will be open to the fact of why we need grace.
The pharisee did what every religious person does. They gatekeeper the law. Water it down. And think they are righteous because they are obedient to their watered down law.
Yet Jesus still said unless our righteousness exceeds theirs we have no hope. Now he did nto say this to say we can do it, He said this to prove a point. It is impossible to come to God by our own actions. Thats why he hands to die. Everyone knew the pharisees were the most morally upright people in their day. Everyone else were dire sinners compared to them. That was th point Jesus was making, You want to come to me by yourself. You have to be better than them. Good luck with that. Their righteousness is so unrighteous, yet they are BETTER than you. If they will not make it, How do you think you will make it?
Only one man ever obeyed the law in a way required by God (continue in ALL ways and obey EVERY Command) ie perfection.
Maybe when you realise you can not fulfill the law. You will be open to the fact of why we need grace.
Thanks....you believe how deceptive these people are all while claiming to be saved and faithful and having good works....
Hey MICROSCOP........pay attention and then apologize for lying.....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
No one has disputed that bro.....the bible is clear on the following truths
Paul-->Romans-->A man is justified (rendered innocent) before God by faith void of works
James-->James-->A man's invisible faith that justifies before God (void of works) is seen by men in our works
FAITH and FAITH alone saves eternally
FAITH that saves eternally will produce fruit/works....even if but one piece!
Hey MICROSCOP........pay attention and then apologize for lying.....
Paul-->Romans-->A man is justified (rendered innocent) before God by faith void of works
James-->James-->A man's invisible faith that justifies before God (void of works) is seen by men in our works
FAITH and FAITH alone saves eternally
FAITH that saves eternally will produce fruit/works....even if but one piece!
I'm reminded of a sermon I heard from an old preacher, who talked about works, and how the best works we can do while here on this Earth would still only be a stench unto the nostrils of the Lord because of our sinful nature, but through our mediator, which is Christ, we are made whole, a sweet smelling aroma.