Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

How does once saved always saved change the truth that the person who gets to the resurrection having lived a lawless life (Matthew 7:23) will be rejected by Jesus not saved?

according to the law. You live a lawless life, as do I. Unless we are sinless.

Are you sinless?

Calvin says that person never believed to begin with. Arminius says he either never believed to begin with or he fell from his faith. What's the difference? This person is condemned either way.

I am not here to discuss calvin vs Armenian. I am here to discuss what true faith is and what true salvation is.

Only in the forbidden to discuss doctrine of freegrace/hypergrace does the lawless person get saved at the resurrection when Jesus comes back.

lol. Back to this. What part of by the law you are condemned do you not comprehend?

Freegrace/hypergrace whatever you want to call it says a person is saved at the ressurection because of grace, because he could not earn salvation, thus has earned condemnation. It is only By gods grace he is saved.

So you either believe in grace, or youi believe in works, there are no other options.

Are you grace or works?

But what I see are Calvy's who have forgotten the part of their doctrine that says the true believer will never fall or else he was never a true believer now insisting that once saved always saved is true and since that is true even fallen believers will be saved according to that doctrine too. That's not what Calvin taught. That is a new twist added to Calvin doctrine. Few Calviists seem to realize this. They amen and like all the freegrace posts.

I'm not discussing freegrace doctrine. Just pointing out it is not consistent with the Calvin belief of once saved always saved. If you're true to your own Calvin once saved always saved beliefs, whether you're full blown Calvinist or not, you contradict what you believe about that when you insist even the fallen worksless 'believer' will be saved when Jesus comes back to. Calvinists and partial Calvinists should be up in arms about this! But I never see them defend their doctrine. I think it's because they don't even realize what is being taught is against their beliefs, not for them.

I am not discussing calvin or Armenian or Catholicism or any ism. I am here to discuss what’s the word says. So please. Leave calvin or any other ism out of the equation when you talk. All that does is confuse people.

 

[Ralph-]

Yes, he has that "ONLY WHAT SOMEONE ELSE said about Calvinist", that reaks of an unlearned OPINION of what Calvinists actually believe.

Start a thread about the Calvin teaching of once saved always saved. I doubt there is nothing about it that I have not heard or understood correctly.

For this thread, the point in Calvin's teaching that is being ignored is the part about the true believer persevering to the very end and not falling away. Yet so many here getting their undies in a bunch about my claim that you show yourself to not be a true believer by not having works when Jesus comes back. Which is what Calvin teaches. I'm in no way disagreeing with Calvin on that. But I'm being attacked as if I am. Go figure.

 

[preacher4truth]

This is the response I expected.

That's good because I'm always getting to the truth of the matter. Why is it that you incessantly lie about what others believe? Is it because you really have nothing to offer or argue unless you erect straw men?

Why are you this way, why are you the same, and why hasnt your behavior changed?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Start a thread about the Calvin teaching of once saved always saved. I doubt there is nothing about it that I have not heard or understood correctly.

For this thread, the point in Calvin's teaching that is being ignored is the part about the true believer persevering to the very end and not falling away. Yet so many here getting their undies in a bunch about my claim that you show yourself to not be a true believer by not having works when Jesus comes back. Which is what Calvin teaches. I'm in no way disagreeing with Calvin on that. But I'm being attacked as if I am. Go figure.

It appears your war is with calvin, no wonder you do not comprehend what most of us are saying, Or like those who spent a year fighting hypergrace. Who kept slandering people because they had no idea what they believed.

Can you ever discuss eternal life with people without being blinded by what you perceive based on what you were told about calvanism?

If you can not. We may as well stop discussing, because we will never have a basis for which to discuss anything, because you will always see everything people say from a viewpoint in which you have already predetermined.

 

[UnderGrace]

Good point...wow.., yes I was raised Catholic. I have never made that connection.

I had a steep learning curve in some ways but the Holy Spirit led me to the truth in the essential areas like faith alone and Jesus being solely the object of my faith etc., it took a while to relinquish some religious things though that is true.

I agree, it is why I think we have to look at historical context to try to figure out the word. It was not written in our language but in theirs.

I think we can relate though.. Ask a catholic how it is coming out of their religion. Or actually did you not say you were catholic once? How was it to come out of religion to grace?

 

[Ralph-]

according to the law. You live a lawless life, as do I. Unless we are sinless.

Are you sinless?

I am legally sinless because of Christ's righteousness deposited in my account. I am beyond the condemnation of the law because of Christ's blood that I believe in. And not only that I do not 'live in' a lawless life. If I lived in a lawless life I'd be an unbeliever. I'd be lost when Christ returns. Turns out I'm not doing that. Not gonna be lost for that reason. I'm not doing that.

I am not here to discuss calvin vs Armenian.

I'm not either, but you people who believe in Calvin's once saved always saved argument have to stop defending people who say your works don't matter on the day Christ comes back. They matter because according to Calvin saved people don't fall and have the life to prove the genuineness of their salvation.

I am here to discuss what true faith is and what true salvation is.

And it's not being without works and still being saved on the day Christ comes back, now is it? It's not if you're going to stay true to your Calvy once saved always belief.

Freegrace/hypergrace whatever you want to call it says a person is saved at the ressurection because of grace, because he could not earn salvation, thus has earned condemnation.

My suspicions are confirmed. You just don't know what f-grace teaches. You do not realize that it's completely contradictory to Calvin's once saved always saved teaching, except for the you can't lose your salvation part of course. You'll have to confirm that on your own because we can not discuss it here.

 

[Ralph-]

you people who believe in Calvin's once saved always saved argument have to stop defending people who say your works don't matter on the day Christ comes back. They matter because according to Calvin saved people don't fall and have the life to prove the genuineness of their salvation.

This is what matters here, eternally-gratefull. Stay focused.

Explain yourself and why it is that you and others are saying works have nothing to do with you being saved on the day Christ comes back when CAlvin says they do.

 

[UnderGrace]

You just don't know what f-grace teaches

Is this an expletive?

I am legally sinless because of Christ's righteousness deposited in my account. I am beyond the condemnation of the law because of Christ's blood that I believe in. And not only that I do not 'live in' a lawless life. If I lived in a lawless life I'd be an unbeliever. I'd be lost when Christ returns. Turns out I'm not doing that. Not gonna be lost for that reason. I'm not doing that.


I'm not either, but you people who believe in Calvin's once saved always saved argument have to stop defending people who say your works don't matter on the day Christ comes back. They matter because according to Calvin saved people don't fall and have the life to prove the genuineness of their salvation.


And it's not being without works and still being saved on the day Christ comes back, now is it? It's not if you're going to stay true to your Calvy once saved always belief.



My suspicions are confirmed. You just don't know what f-grace teaches. You do not realize that it's completely contradictory to Calvin's once saved always saved teaching, except for the you can't lose your salvation part of course. You'll have to confirm that on your own because we can not discuss it here.

 

[Ralph-]

Is this an expletive?

Freegrace. But thanks for the laugh anyway.

 

[Cee]

Here is Ralph- calling others lost. Several on here love to allude to others as lost, not transformed &c. Cee has also done this recently as well in another thread, assertions the learned, theologians and scholars aren't transformed, just have knowledge. Others here are well known for this. The glaring error here is the Spirit gives this insight and knowledge to these men, while men mock them arrogantly and diregard them.

How do you all get off telling others they're lost and not transformed while asserting your own spiritual insight, acumen, discernment, interpretations, but condemn others, while spouting your own prowess?

You all really should just stop that nonsense.

I appreciate you so I’ll respond to your claim about me.

My post was about the priority of being lead by God and knowing Him. Not diminishing education or learned men, but they and their opinions are not the Author of our gospel or our Scripture. God is. I’m fine if you don’t like my opinions, I’m not your teacher, God is. At the end of our lives He is who we are held accountable to. And He is with us right now. And that is important to me and for the gospel for people to realize He is our Teacher.

I’ve read plenty of your posts, I’ve seen your arguments, and you have an excellent way of writing Scripture truths out. So I appreciate that about you. But I do not agree we have arrived and are truly living out a transformed life in Christ. Paul said some argue about him and others about Apollos is that not being carnal? When we stress theology and learning what other men teach over relationship with the Spirit of God Himself is that not carnal? When we do not love one another or encourage one another focusing on our arguments, divisions, and putting labels on people is that not carnal? I have not yet arrived, but I do see there is a lot more for US to press in for. And that happens through letting Him be our Teacher because He transforms us. You can see my words as an attack against learned men, but they are not my intention. I did not mock them as you have claimed. I said if they do not know God they will not be transformed. Just as I believe about all men. Myself included. I prioritize knowing Him over any other thing. Scripture tells us even eternal life is simply knowing Him. And is what I believe and what I stress.

 

[Ralph-]

This is what matters here, eternally-gratefull. Stay focused.

Explain yourself and why it is that you and others are saying works have nothing to do with you being saved on the day Christ comes back when CAlvin says they do.

Stay focued, Eternally-gratefull. Just making sure you do that. Address the actual point, please.

 

[Ralph-]

It appears your war is with calvin

I'm not at war with CAlvin. He says works matter. I agree with that. You people say they don't, but you claim to believe in the once saved always saved part of his teaching. That teaching says your works do matter because if you don't have works up to the day Jesus returns you are not a genuine believer and never were.

 

[Magenta]

The good news is that now God relates to you through Christ’s perfect righteousness in you, and not your performance whether good or bad! Therefore you can have perfect and unbroken fellowship with God 24/7.

Please pardon my edit, I am just popping in to say hello, long time no
see, so happy to have you back again, and happy new year, Budman!

 

[VCO]

Hey VCO!

Love the exchange.

Here are my thoughts quickly in reponse.

1) Salvation isn’t available to demons. We can’t use that as what salvation looks like for humans. Way too many Scriptures say with simple words: Believe in Him and you SHALL be saved.

2) I do believe people who are saved are called to follow Christ. We call out to Him as Lord. Once we believe Scripture says we die to the old and live to the new. The new includes being lead by the Spirit of the Lord.

3) Matt 7 is showing us people who point to their works to be saved. Not to His work which is to believe on Him. Jesus says to them I never knew you not I knew you once, but you didn’t work hard enough to be saved.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on my post. I love the feedback. I’m here to grow and iron sharpens me.

I think the Christains of the WORLD will be SHOCKED, when the Rapture happens, but they should realize why they are Left Behind.

 

[Ralph-]

That's good because I'm always getting to the truth of the matter. Why is it that you incessantly lie about what others believe? Is it because you really have nothing to offer or argue unless you erect straw men?

Why are you this way, why are you the same, and why hasnt your behavior changed?

So you won't acknowledge that dcontroversial was saying you do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back, believing is enough. So be it.

The least you can do is start explaining why works don't matter to salvation but you claim to be a Calvinist. Calvin says they do matter because if you don't have them and persevere in them to the very end you were never a true believer to begin with. And we know that unbelievers will not be saved when Jesus comes back. How do you explain these contradictory beliefs in this thread? People who defend Calvin's once saved always saved teaching but then contradict it by saying you don't have to have works to be saved? You're up, Charlie.

 

[UnderGrace]

Originally Posted by Budman

The good news is that now God relates to you through Christ’s perfect righteousness in you, and not your performance whether good or bad! Therefore you can have perfect and unbroken fellowship with God 24/7.


I just reread this again, what is there to argue when you know this.

Thanks Magenta for drawing my attention to it again...one of those aha moments.

Please pardon my edit, I am just popping in to say hello, long time no
see, so happy to have you back again, and happy new year, Budman!

 

[Ralph-]

Originally Posted by Budman

The good news is that now God relates to you through Christ’s perfect righteousness in you, and not your performance whether good or bad! Therefore you can have perfect and unbroken fellowship with God 24/7.


I just reread this again, what is there to argue when you know this.

Thanks Magenta for drawing my attention to it again...one of those aha moments.

Do you recall what the Bible says about the person who's prayers are hindered? If fellowship is perfect and unbroken 24/7 no matter what we do why does the Bible say there are things we can do that hinder our relationship with God? Salvation is not affected, but our relationship with him is. Do you remember what the Bible says one of the things is that hinders that relationship?

 

[UnderGrace]

Hey Ralphie,

Is it okay if I call you that, I think that is what they call him in the movie,

Just an fyi a new thread has been started you might like it

If you endure to the end you'll be saved.

So you won't acknowledge that dcontroversial was saying you do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back, believing is enough. So be it.

The least you can do is start explaining why works don't matter to salvation but you claim to be a Calvinist. Calvin says they do matter because if you don't have them and persevere in them to the very end you were never a true believer to begin with. And we know that unbelievers will not be saved when Jesus comes back. How do you explain these contradictory beliefs in this thread? People who defend Calvin's once saved always saved teaching but then contradict it by saying you don't have to have works to be saved? You're up, Charlie.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I do not 'live in' a lawless life. If I lived in a lawless life I'd be an unbeliever. I'd be lost when Christ returns. Turns out I'm not doing that. Not gonna be lost for that reason. I'm not doing that.

I think you might be missing the distinction between 'law-less' & 'lawlessness' there.


BTW Who is this 'Calvin' when he's at home?
I've heard OF him but I couldn't tell you anything about him.
Does he have something to do with men's underpants?

 

[Ralph-]

Hey Ralphie,

Is it okay if I call you that, I think that is what they call him in the movie,

Just an fyi a new thread has been started you might like it

If you endure to the end you'll be saved.

Thank you. I'll check it out.

And yes you can call me Ralphie. I like that.