Not By Works

Hizikyah · Dec 21, 2017

Is the Mystery of Iniquity/the secret initiation of lawlessness a good or bad thing? and tell me how lawlessness is not actually lawlessness. It comes from the owrd "anomia" "a" to be without. "nomia" law. Lawlessness=to be without law, but tell me how rejecting the law is not actualy lawlessnbess and accepting the law is actually lawlessness?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, “Let no one deceive you in any way, because the falling away is to come first, and the man of lawlessness is to be revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called the Most High or that is worshipped, so that he sits as the Most High in the Dwelling Place of the Most High, showing himself that he is the Most High. Do you not remember that I told you this while I was still with you? For the mystery of iniquity is already working, but the One restraining him will continue to restrain him, until he is made to appear in the midst. And then that lawless one will be revealed, whom Yahshua will remove with the breath of His mouth, and make powerless with the appearance of His coming-- Whose coming is according to the energy of Satan, who works with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of sin in those who are perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason, YHWH will send them strong delusion, that they would believe the deception, In order that all those may be judged as not having believed the truth, but as having delighted in sin.”[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]mystery” is word # G3466 - Mustérion, Strong's Concordance, mustérion: a mystery or secret doctrine, Original Word: μυστήριον, ου, τό, Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter, Transliteration: mustérion, Phonetic Spelling: (moos-tay'-ree-on), Short Definition: anything hidden, a mystery, Definition: a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary; in the NT: the counsels of God, once hidden but now revealed in the Gospel or some fact thereof; the Christian revelation generally; particular truths or details of the Christian revelation.[/FONT]

—[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon) From a derivative of μύω [[muo]] (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):—mystery.[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]iniquity” is word # G458 - anomia Strong's Concordance, lawlessness, Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law* through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law*!"[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*“Law” is word # G3551 – nomos, Strong's Concordance, nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law, Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ, Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine, Transliteration: nomos, Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os), Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law, Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of, law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law;, metion: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:25, “Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:14, “For we know that the Law is spiritual...”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), YHWH; for it is not subject to the Law of YHWH, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please YHWH."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."[/FONT]

mailmandan · Dec 21, 2017

Hizikyah said:

Why is that odd? The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely."

In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by refusing to believe on the Son.

Again, if John wanted to make obedience (as in multiple acts of obedience/works which follow choosing to believe in Him for salvation) the central theme in receiving eternal life here, then John would have said. "He who believes AND obeys the Son.." but that is not what John said, although obeying the Son after we have been saved through believing in the Son is a manifestation of our belief.

Refusing to believe in the Son in order to receive eternal life is rejecting Him and seeking salvation by works is not following His words.

Those who "do not love Him" is descriptive of unbelievers, not believers. We (believers) love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

This is DESCRIPTIVE of genuine believers, not unbelievers. Seeking to accomplish the latter without the former is futile.

Hizikyah · Dec 21, 2017

mailmandan said:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]does not obey” is word #544 - apeitheó: to disobey, Original Word: ἀπειθέω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: apeitheó, Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o), Short Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.[/FONT]

G544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo (a-pei-the'-ō) v., 1. to disbelieve (willfully and perversely)., 2. (by direct extension) to be willfully disobedient., [from G545], KJV: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving , Root(s): G545

Od because in Yahshua;s language there was not difference between faith and doing. If one had faith they did.

Here is an example:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

we can dance around it all day to feel fuzzy, but truth is:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”[/FONT]

Ralph- · Dec 21, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

If obedience is the outcome of faith, as you say, that makes obedience a required part of faith. You have to stop hearing it as obedience is required to buy salvation. That's not what's being said.

You agree that obedience is the byproduct of the faith that saves but you are unwillingly to admit that makes it required with the faith that saves. You're being contradictory.

Ralph- · Dec 21, 2017

Faith and works are like water and going swimming. If you have to get in the pool to be saved that makes getting wet required in salvation.

The pool is immersion in the Holy Spirit. Getting wet will invariably happen as a result. You can't be immersed in the pool of God's Holy Spirit and not get wet with the Holy Spirit. The two are inseparable. That makes obedience by the Spirit required in salvation.

The person who claims to be immersed in the Holy Spirit in salvation but is never wet with the Spirit has not been immersed in the Holy Spirit. They are lost.

And it doesn't matter if they ever were in the Spirit before or not. They're still lost nonetheless.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 21, 2017

Ralph- said:

This is teaching works. (Saying obedience or works is REQUIRED)

The fact is, If you have faith, and are baptised by God the HS, you will have works. There is no MUST about it,. There is no “works are required” about it. There will be works.

What is required is faith

Those who have true faith WILL WORK

those who do not, even if they believe WILL NOT WORK.

it is not the works which are required, it is the FAITH (not mere4 belief, but true living faith)

Hizikyah · Dec 21, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

2 simple quesrtions:

1 Does faith without obedience (works) save?

2 are works required to have saving faith?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."[/FONT]

eternally-gratefull · Dec 21, 2017

Ralph- said:

Wrong, It makes it the direct result of faith. Not required, If works is required, then faith is no needed,

You have to stop saying required. If you say required, it is no different than saying one must buy, When you go to the store to get something you need, You have to purchase that item, Work is required because you have to make th money required to purchase that item,

If However Your father loves you so much, he wants to give you that item as a gift, Works are not required, because you do not need the money to purchase thi gift, The gift was purchased by your farther, All youhave to do is trust your faith (have faith) and take the gift. At that point, You take the gift, and work out that gift which was given to you, You do not put it in the closet, and not use it.

You needed the gift to begin with, in this case, the gift saved your life, failure to take it would require you to purchase that gift on your own, or die.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 21, 2017

Hizikyah said:

There is no such thing, (that is the point James was trying to make, and for some reason people keep failing to comprehend) so asking about it is pointless, as well as ridiculous.

No. Because again there is no such thing as faith apart from works, A dead faith is no faith period. Your putting the cart before the horse (works before faith) not the horse before the cart (the horse pulls the cart)

I wish you would realise this simple fact.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You can post james a million times As long as you continue to misinterpret what James was trying to say, it will not help.

James did not contradict paul

Paul said we are saved by faith NOT WORK, and thast Abraham was saved by faith NOT WORKS (lest abraham, or we, should boast) but those who are saved WILL WORK (eph 2: 8-10)

James (talking to people who CLAIMED to have faith, but were hearers of the word not doers of the word( said if we CLAIM to have faith but have no works (the works PAUL SAID WE WOULD HAVE) can our faith save us? Of course not. Why? IT IS DEAD (NON EXISTENT)[/FONT]

Ralph- · Dec 21, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Everyone who names the name of the Lord MUST turn from wickedness. 2 Timothy 2:19

If you don't turn away from wickedness, because you can't turn away from wickedness, you aren't standing on the foundation who is Christ. That makes obedience required. It doesn't purchase salvation. It's what accompanies those who are saved, or else you're not saved and you will be burned up in the end-Hebrews 6:7-12.

If obedience doesn't accompany your salvation, you don't have salvation. You just think you do. And whether or not you ever did believe and have salvation is irrelevant. That doesn't change the fact that if you have no works you are not saved. And if the person who has no works is not saved that makes works required. Not to buy salvation, but as the thing that happens to the person who is saved. Just like getting wet is what happens to people who go swimming. If they're not wet, they ain't swimming in the pool.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 21, 2017

Ralph- said:

Here is where the disconnect comes in.

Everyone who is truly saved by true faith will do this.

You also left the first part out. The lord knows who are his, and even before this, THE SOLID FOUNDATION of GOD STANDS.

1. You can not turn away from wickedness, God must empower you./ Jesus said we fulfill the commands by two commands. Love God, Love neighbor (all people you come in contact with)

2. God said we love because he loved us first.

We can not change from loving self (wickedness) to loving others (being obedient to God) until we first experience the love of God in salvation, and the continued love of God he has for all his children.

You can try to turn from wickedness from here till the end of days, if your not saved, It will do you no good.

If you are saved, it is not a question of IF you will do this, it is WHEN and HOW much you will do this (a baby has to grow to an adult, this takes time)

blue_ladybug · Dec 21, 2017

...............

Ralph- · Dec 21, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Then you agree that faith and works are inseparable. Faith can not be alone and unfruitful, or else it's not faith. That makes works required. Not because works purchase salvation, but because as you say 'there is no such thing as faith apart from works'.

Ralph- · Dec 21, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

All of this makes it so works are required to be saved, or you have a fake faith that can not save. You yourself are saying the faith that saves can not be separated from works. That makes it so the faith that saves has to have works or else it's not real faith and you are not saved.

Ralph- · Dec 21, 2017

I think the problem here is people are hung up on the fact that people are saved the moment they believe, which they are. But we know if that really happened by if the required works of faith show up to validate that belief as having been real. If no works follow then you didn't really get saved when you supposedly believed. That makes works required in salvation. If they don't show up, you aren't saved.

Hebrews 6 says this. If your field is barren, you are in danger of being burned in the end (there is always time to repent as long as you have breath). It says that what accompanies salvation is work, and love. If you don't have these you are not saved and you will be burned up. That makes works required. Works validate the faith that saves (all by itself) as being real faith. That makes works required in salvation. Barren fields will not be saved when Jesus comes back. They will be burned. You have to have works of faith to be saved when Jesus comes back.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 21, 2017

Ralph- said:

NOOOOOOO! It does not make works required. Why do you want to drown in legalism? Why can you not just admit, whoever has true faith is truly saved, and has ETERNAL LIFE, and is assured of heaven? And have the seal of the spirit as a pledge and thus have this hope which will sustain our faiht forever? (Security in christ, and not self) and THE RESULT of that salvation, and being loved by God will proceed works?

eternally-gratefull · Dec 21, 2017

Ralph- said:

NOOOOO!

Your focused to Much on works man, Thats dangerous!

Your making James contradict paul. Not supplement Pauls writings.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 21, 2017

Ralph- said:

What the disconnect is is that people ar hung up on works. And not on faith. If people were hung up on faith, then works would not even be spoken of.

Whoever has true faith will work

Whoever dose not have true faith will not work (produce fruit)

Faith is the issue, Not works.

Works produce fruit, A non believer (or person who just believes with no faith) will not (can not ) produce fruit.

Fruit inspectors like to boast of fruit. Not in Christ.

beastslayer1970 · Dec 21, 2017

Ralph- said:

We are not saved by our works, ever. We are saved by faith and what Christ and he alone did for us. Not one work saves us, not one work is needed to maintain or keep salvation.

I do believe after salvation, that evidence of the new man has to manifest in the form of the Fruit of the Spirit. The primary fruit of love should be manifest immediately after salvation, the others come has one spiritually matures in Christ.

Someone said a few days ago that an apple tree that never produces an apple is still an apple tree and I totally disagree with that. I believe it was never an apple tree. [wheat and the tares]

I think you are trying to tell people what the evidence is after salvation by Christ and him alone did for them. Evidence of the new man is the fruit and good works. I do not see works as something that keeps me saved or maintains my salvation either.

I see Eph 2:8-9 quoted to support a certain viewpoint, but never see verse 10 added to it.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; [SUP]9 [/SUP]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I think many get upset with what evidence of salvation looks like, because of the lie called passive sanctification and also the simple fact many self professing "Christians" are lazy about doing their part in spiritually maturing.

To continue to grow healthy in our physical bodies we must make proper eating choices, exercise, etc. Growing spiritually healthy is no different, we have to play an active part in our progressive sanctification and spiritual growth.

Doing these things do not keep us saved, or maintain our salvation or are working towards our salvation. They are the evidence of a life that is disciplined in Christ and what he and he alone did for us.

Paul even said this in 1 Timothy 4:6-16

[SUP]6 [/SUP]In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; [SUP]8 [/SUP]for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. [SUP]9 [/SUP]It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Prescribe and teach these things. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

People fighting against seeing evidence of the new man manifesting is the new gospel and not the Gospel.

dcontroversal · Dec 21, 2017

Rosemaryx said:

Morning all from cold England...This is a wonderful reminder that once we are in the palm of our Fathers hand, there is no jumping out of it, God`s hand is Mighty, to deep to fall from His clasp, we are His for eternity, we are being raised by Him, chasen by Him, corrected by Him, hedged in by Him

...

When we fall, He will always come for us because we are His, we are bought with the blood of Jesus, we are children of the creator of the heavens and the earth, we are children of God, and nothing can separate us from Him...

He has given us everything to help us to walk upright with Him, all His doing not ours, we are saved by grace through faith, and none of it is any of our doing...\0/...

The Parable of the Lost Sheep

15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”
3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent...

We all fall short of the glory of God, we lose our way sometimes, but thank God His grace and mercies are fresh every morning, in Jesus name Amen...xox...

Amen sister.....Jesus begins and finishes his work of faith in us.....so glad you have not fallen for this "salvation can be lost or forfeited crap"..........

Not By Works

Hizikyah

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