Not By Works

[mailmandan]

Yes.
Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”

So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost?

I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons etc.. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel--PRESCRIPTIVE--(Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping (meno - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments and practicing righteousness--DESCRIPTIVE--(1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merit of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

 

[Ralph-]

Rather than "proving" I am saved by doing this or not doing that, I am finding that when I can have faith in who God has made me to be (righteous, holy, redeemed) DESPITE the evidence to the contrary then any good works I do flow from that.

What you are saying is your works flow from your faith. Maybe all you're pointing out is how one produces the works that confirm one's salvation not that they don't have to follow faith.

It seems by your statement above that you also agree that salvation and works are inseparable. You believe in the work of Christ and the works appear as a result. That's what I see you saying. That's what I'm saying, and when that happens the works themselves are the visible evidence of the faith that produced them. That's what the Bible says. You know a tree by it's fruit, and who planted it. The fruit proves what kind of tree it is and who it belongs to.

 

[Ralph-]

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

That is what I am saying. I'm just using the word 'prove' in place of 'demonstrate'.

Just as righteous living shows you are a child of God, so unrighteous living shows you are a not a child of God-1 John 3:10. If a change of nature can not be detected, nor revealed by a person, they are proving they are not justified in Christ alone. That's why the Bible tells us to act out our faith and so make our calling and election known for sure. It's to our own benefit that we know for sure if we are saved or not. Our works reveal that, not our confession.

 

[Magenta]

Colossians 3:24-25, “Knowing that from יהוה you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve Yahshua the Messiah. But he who does wrong will receive the reward for the wrong he has done, and there is no respect of persons.” ​

There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1​

​

 

[TruthTalk]

"The person who does not work can not know for sure he has received God's gracious gift of the forgiveness of sin."

I would say that all the work in the world wont help if one does not know they are saved. Rather than "proving" I am saved by doing this or not doing that, I am finding that when I can have faith in who God has made me to be (righteous, holy, redeemed) DESPITE the evidence to the contrary then any good works I do flow from that.

I know for sure I am saved because I know God. He speaks to me and I to Him. Some days I do good and other days not so much but He loves me just the same. I am justified by the grace of God and nothing else. I am holy and redeemed because God says I am holy and redeemed. To say that what I do or do not do somehow alters what Jesus did for me is, in fact, the height of arrogance.

Amen Fishnookman7, God loves His own with an everlasting love.

"Surely your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house
of the LORD forever." Psalm23:6

 

[Endoscopy]

If one believes that, One has not produced any fruit/works yet. One has to get past the milk before they can digest the meat.

And it is understanding and applying the meat of the word that produces fruit.

If one is stuck on salvation and does not understand that they are eternally secure in Christ, fruit,true fruit/works CANNOT be produced by the believer.


Faith(which is His mind and His doctrines and APPLYING His truths in our lives) is dead without works(divine good/right motivation.) Salvation is not dead, faith is dead. A person who does not have their salvation solidified and concreted in their mind does not have the mind of Christ. Their faith(doctrine in the soul/His Mind) is dead.

Shame on you for having milk and meat in the same meal. That's not kosher!

 

[dcontroversal]

I see the embellishers of salvation are still swallowing the lie of faith plus wotks FOR salvation......what part of the following is so difficult to understand....

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HAS HE SAVED US <--PAST TENSE.

and while there....you guys should study the word context and start employing the word.....

Paul <--Inspired, writes almost half of the N.T. states clearly that we are saved, justified, sealed and sanctified in Christ eternally by faith without any works BEFORE GOD.

JAMES who writes one book states that BEFORE MEN the above faith is seen before men by our works.

BEFORE GOD FAITH
BEFORE MEN FAITH SEEN BY WORKS

AND

Those who have believed have already done the work of the Father......!

 

[dcontroversal]

There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1​

​

Lawyers, Pharisees, Sinless perfectionists etc. cannot grasp that truth....when one believes adherance to some law makes them righteous even though the law actually does the complete opposite, because it condemns them...Why? -->because they never keep it though they claim to keep it

 

[beastslayer1970]

Eccl 2:11

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Thus I considered all my activities which my hands had done and the labor which I had exerted, and behold all was vanity and striving after wind and there was no profit under the sun.

 

[Endoscopy]

There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1​

​

That is the GOSPEL (good news) message.

 

[VCO]

I'm not pretending.

If you think that ultimately a saved person can have no works and be a saved person then you are wrong. The faith that justifies apart from works changes a person into a new creation who grows up into righteous living. If that isn't happening then that person may not have been justified in Christ at all.

Works are the evidence of justification through Christ. No evidence of justification may well mean exactly that. No justification has occurred. That's why we're encouraged to prove our calling and election, so we can know for sure. The person who does not work can not know for sure he has received God's gracious gift of the forgiveness of sin.

Excuse me.

Romans 5:8-11 (NIV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Job 25:4-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] How can a person be justified before God? How can one born of woman be pure?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] If even the moon does not shine and the stars are not pure in His sight,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!
Romans 3:20-25 (ESV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
[SUP]22 [/SUP] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Romans 3:28 (ASV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 8:30 (CSBBible)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.


Galatians 2:16-17 (CSBBible)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] and yet because we know that a person is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we ourselves have believed in Christ Jesus. This was so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But if we ourselves are also found to be "sinners" while seeking to be justified by Christ, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not!

 

[Studyman]

No, I do not teach that.

What I say is salvation without works is not salvation. You can not separate works from salvation. What you can do is separate works from justification, but you can not separate works from salvation. As you yourself say, there is no such thing as a saved person who has no righteous works. This idiocy of claiming you can be saved without works must stop.

Well said Ralph.

 

[mailmandan]

That is what I am saying. I'm just using the word 'prove' in place of 'demonstrate'.

That sounds more like it. It may just be in the semantics.

Just as righteous living shows you are a child of God, so unrighteous living shows you are a not a child of God-1 John 3:10.

Yes, children of God practice righteousness and not sin, yet children of the devil practice sin and not righteousness.

If a change of nature can not be detected, nor revealed by a person, they are proving they are not justified in Christ alone.

The absence of evidence of good works, can be construed as evidence of absence of a change of nature.

That's why the Bible tells us to act out our faith and so make our calling and election known for sure. It's to our own benefit that we know for sure if we are saved or not.

To practice these qualities in 2 Peter 1:5-7 gives evidence of and assurance of salvation, though they are never the basis for it. Peter says, those who practice these qualities will never fall.

Our works reveal that, not our confession.

We show our faith by our works and not by an empty profession of faith (James 2:14-18).

 

[Mercy4u]

Looks to me that most of those who say, "It is not by works." Ultimately DO believe it is by works.

Seems the TRUTH of being least(no fruit) or the greatest(much fruit) in His kingdom is lost on most believers.

A believer with NO fruit is least in His kingdom.

A believer with much fruit is Great in His kingdom.

All believers will be in the/His kingdom but not all will inherit that which He has ready for them.

 

[stonesoffire]

Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.


Luk 22:26 But ye shall not beso: but he that is greatestamong you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. ( younger- as a child)


Luk 22:27 For whether isgreater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? isnot he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.


Luk 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

 

[dcontroversal]

Eccl 2:11

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Thus I considered all my activities which my hands had done and the labor which I had exerted, and behold all was vanity and striving after wind and there was no profit under the sun.

One of my favorite books....That which God does is forever, nothing added nor taken away and he does this so that men may fear him.

 

[dcontroversal]

The word gospel comes from the Greek word εὐαγγέλιον and carries a deeper meaning then the ordinary statement "good news" folded within it's application is the understanding -->>CORRECT MESSAGE .....THIS application can be seen by the angel flying through heaven proclaiming the "GOSPEL".......NOTE what he said.....

And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."

This is the correct message that he proclaimed..........so...when we see the word gospel we need to.understand that it goes beyond the "good news" into the realm of the "correct message"

 

[Seohce]

Dcontroversial wrote:


Lawyers, Pharisees, Sinless perfectionists etc. cannot grasp that TRUTH....when one believes adherance to some law makes them RIGHTEOUS even though THE LAW ACTUALLY DOES THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE, because it CONDEMNS them...Why? -->because THEY NEVER KEEP IT though they claim to keep it

____________________________________________


CHRISTIANS OUGHT TO TEST THE SPIRIT WHETHER THEY ARE FROM GOD.(1john 4:1, john 7:17)


LET’S SPOT THE DIFFERENCE.




Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is THOSE WHO OBEY THE LAW WHO WILL BE DECLARED.RIGHTEOUS.


Romans 3:31 Do we, then, NULLIFY THE LAW by this faith? Not at all! Rather, WE UPHOLD THE LAW.


Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW.


Romans 5:5 And hope does not disappoint us, because GOD HAS POURED OUT HIS LOVE INTO OUR HEARTS by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.


Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will make WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. I will be their God, and they will be my people.


Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you HYPOCRITES; as it is written: “‘THESE PEOPLE HONOR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, but their hearts are far from me. THEY WORSHIP ME IN VAIN; their teachings are but RULES TAUGHT BY MEN.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then YOU NO LONGER LET HIM DO ANYTHING for his father or mother. Thus YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. And YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.”

 

[Hizikyah]

Colossians 3:24-25, “Knowing that from יהוה you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve Yahshua the Messiah. But he who does wrong will receive the reward for the wrong he has done, and there is no respect of persons.”

There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1​

​

Do these verses contradict or are they in agreement?

How do we know we are in the Messiah?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Messiah Yahshua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”[/FONT]

 

[Ralph-]

Excuse me.

Romans 5:8-11 (NIV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Job 25:4-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] How can a person be justified before God? How can one born of woman be pure?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] If even the moon does not shine and the stars are not pure in His sight,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!
Romans 3:20-25 (ESV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
[SUP]22 [/SUP] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Romans 3:28 (ASV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 8:30 (CSBBible)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.


Galatians 2:16-17 (CSBBible)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] and yet because we know that a person is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we ourselves have believed in Christ Jesus. This was so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But if we ourselves are also found to be "sinners" while seeking to be justified by Christ, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not!

Not sure of your point since you did not post any of your own words.

But anyway, the person who claims to be justified in Christ but who has no change of nature is a liar. Christ will reject every person who does not have the works that come from receiving God's free gift of justification in Christ. They show by their disobedient lives that they do not know Him. That doesn't mean they didn't do enough to earn salvation. It means they demonstrate by their disobedient, lawless lives that they do not have the free gift of the forgiveness of sin through Christ Jesus.

No amount of church going, giving, church program participation, witnessing, deacon ministry, praise for his Name, or work of service, etc. is going to make up for the person who has a sinful lifestyle of lawlessness because they're not even justified in Christ to begin with. Their slavery to sin being the evidence of that lack of justification. Rubbing shoulders with Jesus is not good enough to be saved. You have to be justified as evidenced by becoming a new creation that is growing up into His likeness. Works of service for the church is not that evidence. Works of obedience according to the Fruit of the Spirit is. The works of the changed nature are what must accompany salvation. You can't separate them.

Each of us is to see to it that we have not fallen short of the grace of God. We know if we have by how we live. The person who can't demonstrate that he has received the grace of God by how he lives has fallen short of the grace of God and will be rejected by Christ.