The Rapture

[Snoozy]

u know what ive noticed a lot of post-tribbers are doomsday preppers. and guys who think they will take on the antichrist. they call us cowards but they really downplay the level of disaster in the book of revelation.

u guys think u gonna be tough guys when all the grass burns from the earth? good luck farming.

there is no way to avoid the consequences of the vials trumpets and seals.

u know what guys i believe there will be a total collapse of technology during that time. it will be back to the stoneage. there aint no way technology lasts the onslaught of the seals trumpets and vials. thats just not gonna work. even the scientists are talking about a possible EMP or power spike that can destroy all technology.

 

[Ahwatukee]

u know what ive noticed a lot of post-tribbers are doomsday preppers. and guys who think they will take on the antichrist. they call us cowards but they really downplay the level of disaster in the book of revelation.

u guys think u gonna be tough guys when all the grass burns from the earth? good luck farming.

there is no way to avoid the consequences of the vials trumpets and seals.

u know what guys i believe there will be a total collapse of technology during that time. it will be back to the stoneage. there aint no way technology lasts the onslaught of the seals trumpets and vials. thats just not gonna work. even the scientists are talking about a possible EMP or power spike that can destroy all technology.

Hello Snoozy,

The underlying principle regarding those who think that the living church is going to go through God's wrath, would demonstrate that they truly don't believe that God's wrath was poured out upon Christ, satisfying it completely. Therefore, we cannot go through God's wrath because it has already been satisfied by Christ. If believers were to still go through God's coming wrath, the wrath that Jesus suffered would be as though he never suffered it.

They also don't truly believe that those who receive Christ have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God through faith in Christ. If they did, then they would not be believing that the Lord would send his church through his wrath.

If they think that God will protect the churfch in the midst of his wrath, then they have not understood the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. They have watered it down, diluted it or historicized or allegorized it. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third respectively, the fatalities will be over half of the earths population dead within the first 3 1/2 years. And that's not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor the fatalities that will result for the bowl judgments.

They have no idea of the horrors that are coming upon this earth!

In addition, we have multiple verses of comfort stating that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from God's wrath and that the Lord would keep us out of the time of his wrath.

 

[Bladerunner]

this is why its so important to rightly divide the word of truth or else u will get mixed up in all kinds of false doctrines.
to say that the first seal doesnt start the wrath of God is just odd. the Lamb is opening the seals and the Lamb is Jesus.

Jesus could come at any moment right now guys. believe that

Snoozy, Look to the Gog/MaGog war..... Russia, Turkey, Iran and numerous other countries. Yes, these are man's wars??????maybe???????God tells us that he will put a hook in the mouth of Gog and force him to attack Israel. Then Gog destroys them from Heaven.... GOd's Wrath! a Hint from the past wars as well.

In seal #1 we see Jesus and His angels introduce the Anti-christ to the earth. They give him a (a Victors) Crown, a BOW (see Noah's BOW) and NO, I say NO arrows. This is indicative that the Anti-Christ as we are told else where, the Antichrist will bring peace among the nations with all his charm, etc.

In Seal #2, We see the Red Horse and the power was given to him to take the peace away from the earth. Here He was given a Great Sword (a killing idiom)

In Seal #3, we see the Black Horse and the results of a world war. Famine, Pestilence, etc. In the next verse we see that the cost of food and necessities will sky rocket, much like it did after WWI in the US. Poverty everywhere. Notice that it said not to HURT the OIL or the WINE..... Idioms of the Rich and the economies they hold in their hands. Do not HURT THEM. Also, the way this is written, my conjecture is the wars will remain in the third world countries and the Middle east.

In the 4th seal, we see a Pale (green) horse who had TWO RIDERS (Death and HELL)... They were given the power to kill those people who do believe in Jesus Christ on a 1/4 part of the earth.* They also were held away from Israel and Jordan. The reason for Jordan is that Petra is in this area. The reason for Israel is the prophecy that the anti-christ will enforce a covenant with the TWO RIDERS of the pale Horse. (Isa 28:14-16). To have them destroyed before a covenant could be made simply will NOT happen.

In the fifth seal, we see "UNDER the ALTAR" the martyred people who during this time before Daniel's 70th week have died for Jesus Christ. During this time, the antichrist (the beast) is loosed on earth (seal#1) and the False Profit is making war upon the Believers in Christ. We know this period of time is before Daniel's 70th week. They are asking the Lord how long (how much time) will it take to avenge their deaths. If they were in Daniel's 70th week (7th years), It would be easy to know the answer.

In the 6th seal, we major earthquakes and prophesied signs within the 1st heaven (the sun, moon, stars and the sky). As in Jericho (Num 22), we see the Kings of the earth recognize what is happening....Rem, The whole world has just seen what God did to Gog and MaGog. They know what is coming as the 6th seal opens and proclaims it here. God's Wrath is just beginning.

As far as your last statement, YOU are RIGHT? the Rapture of the Body of Christ has already happened before the 1st seal is opened. and it will be here soon.


[/COLOR]

* This is completely different than the killing of 1/3 of the earth. REV 9:15..Here the four angels "were release to Kill a third of MANKIND" vs. "And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth." REV 6:8....Power was given to kill OVER 1/4 of the earth.... Does this say to kill 1/4 of the earth as did Rev 9:15?????????

 

[Endoscopy]

Of course. But no one can (or should) accept all four views as equally valid. So sooner or later, Christians need to decide what view of the Resurrection/Rapture is most biblically consistent. Which means a personal study of the Word.

Eschatology has been studied by theologians for many centuries. In Daniel we today understand the statue since it is now history. The books are sealed until the end times. There is a reason for the four seperate equally Biblical views. There have been through the centuries the concept that a person was the beast. Nero was an early contender and Hitler was the latest. The problem is not enough happened to fulfill the complete scriptures of end times. So we have to wait and see. Will the temple be rebuilt? Certain scriptures require the temple. Some have suggested St. Peter's Basilicata. Who knows. All is just guesswork.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

Brother Ahwatukee,

i have a question for you.

The following list, please give YOUR interpretation of the order that they will happen in.


1) The Rapture (2nd Coming of Christ)
2) Holy City comes down to Earth
3) Great White Throne Judgment
4) 7 year Tribulation Period
5) 1000 Year Reign of Christ

Also could you describe what the Great White Throne Judgement is about?

Thanks

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

1) The Gathering of the church/Rapture (Takes place prior to the 2nd coming of Christ)

Who do you think gathers the Church? So Jesus comes down from Heaven to Gather the Church then goes back to Heaven and comes back again, which is what YOU call the second coming. Is that what you are trying to teach? That Jesus coming back the THIRD time is actually the second coming? Seriously? The 2nd coming of Christ is when He comes to the Earth the second time, this second time is when He gathers up the Church. Where in all of Scriptures does it teach that Christ comes a third time? It doesn't, that is what YOU teach, based on your false interpretations of the Word of God, which interpretations does not belong to men, but is for God to reveal to whom God will reveal them to. lol. According to you the second coming of Jesus Christ is the third time He comes to Earth. Clearly you do not understand the TRUTH, and would rather rely on YOUR own interpretations then to believe someone who says God told them exactly what is going to happen. Sad indeed. Believe your own interpretation over what God told me is going to happen. Sad.

Now lets look at what your order of event are and see if they line up with Scriptures.

1) The Gathering of the church/Rapture (Takes place prior to the 2nd coming of Christ)

4) 7 year Tribulation Period

5) 1000 Year Reign of Christ

3) Great White Throne Judgment

2) Holy City comes down to Earth (the new earth, not the present earth)

Question: During the 1000 year Reign of Christ, who does Christ and the Saints reign over? The Saints Reign with Jesus. So don't say Jesus reigns over the Saints. So You have Jesus Gathering up the Church/Rapture, so then all the Saints are gone. And then you have the 7 year Tribulation period next, which gets rid of ALL the wicked who were not taken up with Christ. Then you have the 1000 year reign of Christ, if the Good are Raptured and the wicked are killed in the 7 year Tribulation Period, who does Christ and the Saints reign over?

Also, Do you not believe Scriptures which teach that we reign with Christ ON EARTH?

Jer_23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

This verse prophesies that Jesus will be King that reigns and prospers, and He shall execute Judgement and justice IN THE EARTH. Tell me when according to YOUR order of events does this prophesy take place? At the Rapture, according to you He gathers up the Church then goes back to Heaven, so it can't be there. This prophesy does not fit into YOUR order at the time of the 1000 year reign where you have it either. Because where you have it, the Good and the bad are all gone, correct. So How can Jesus execute Judgment if there is NOBODY to judge? So then this prophesy is ONLY fulfilled when Jesus is ON the Earth, reigning over people who are in need of Judgements. Where does that fit into YOUR order of events, please tell.

Rev_5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

We, the Saints shall reign over WHO, on the Earth, for a thousand years? Do you know this, or is your interpretations flawed?You see, you teach that Christ comes to the Earth and Raptures the Church and then goes back to Heaven. Scriptures does not teach that ANYWHERE at all, that is what YOU interpret and is NOT what Scriptures teach. Scriptures teach when Christ comes back and gathers up the Saints we will then at that time reign with Him ON THE EARTH for a thousand years. That is what Scriptures teach, and Scriptures is contrary to what you teach. Scriptures says we reign with Christ ON EARTH for a thousand years. Again Who do we reign over?

Can't you see Scriptures teach contrary to your order of events above?

Wait there are tons of Scriptures which proves YOUR order of events can't possibly be correct. Consider the following verse. You have the Holy City coming down after the Rapture, correct? Yes you do. You have the Holy City coming down after the 1000 year reign, correct? Yes you do. You have the Holy City coming down after the Great White Throne Judgment, correct? Yes you do. Then please explain these verses:
Rev_20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This camp of the SAINTS is ON EARTH, which is to say a place where the SAINTS are at. So they compassed the camp of the SAINTS And the beloved City? tell me what city is called the beloved City? That is the Holy City of God. The New Jerusalem

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book.

Heb_11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb_11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb_13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Joh_14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (And where will He be? IN the Beloved City with the Saints reigning over those that are on the Earth.)

Rev_20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the Beloved City: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Now according to YOUR order of events the Holy city comes down AFTER the 7 year Tribulation Period where all the wicked are destroyed. AFTER the Great White Throne Judgement where satan and demons and all his followers are judged and cast into Hell. So then tell me WHO ARE THEY that are devoured for coming against the HOLY CITY?

Also this verse is contrary to the Holy City coming down in the end:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with MEN, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Notice Scriptures plainly teaches that the Holy City comes down out of Heaven, and that Jesus is going to be the God of these MEN. Notice it did not say Saints, but clearly says men. Other Scriptures from the Major Prophets also teach that too.

Here is yet more verses which is contrary to YOUR order of events.

You say Christ comes and get the Church, then goes back to Heaven, then He comes back to Earth with the New Jerusalem AFTER all the wicked people are gone, correct? After 7 year Tribulation, After the 1,000 years, AFTER the Great White Throne. So tell me, where does this prophecy fit into YOUR order of events?

Psa 72:7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth. He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. Yea, ALL KINGS shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Tell me, where do you placed this event in YOUR ORDER? Do you believe Scriptures? These verses plainly teaches that ALL KINGS, and ALL NATIONS will serve Jesus Christ. So tell me where does that fit into YOUR ORDER of events? If ALL KINGS and ALL NATIONS will bow down to Jesus and serve Him, Who are these people? They are NOT Saints they are already taken up with Jesus Christ. So when, according to you, will this prophesy be fulfilled? When will Jesus be ON EARTH right along with those who are NOT Saints, and All the Kings of the Earth will fall down and worship Him, and ALL nations shall serve Him. When is that happen according to YOUR ORDER of events?

Can you explain this verse:

Zec_14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

When is this prophesy going to Happen according to YOUR ORDER of events? This verse plainly teaches that these wicked and evil nations that come against Jerusalem (Which i know to be the Holy City) will come up to worship Jesus from year to year. Really, Year to Year these wicked people who attacked Jerusalem will come up to WORSHIP JESUS, really? When does this happen according to YOUR ORDER of events? When is Jesus here on the EARTH reigning, where people come up year to year to worship Him? Can you explain that?

The Lord even says if they (these wicked people) do not come up year to year to worship Him, that He will cause it not to rain in their lands.

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

So when, according to YOUR ORDER of events will Jesus force people to come and worship Him every Year, or He will not let it rain on their crops and the such? When does that happen according to YOUR interpretations? i don't think you can, because you do not understand the TRUTH which God has told me, and what He has told me lines up with ALL OF SCRIPTURES.

Can you place this prophesy someplace in YOUR ORDER of events that you give, please tell me where this prophesy fits?

Mic 4:1 But in the last days (So we are talking about what is yet to come) it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

What is your interpretation concerning the House of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains? And what is your interpretation that when this does happen, PEOPLE shall flow unto it? lets continue:

Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the HOUSE of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

So then in the last days this event will happen. That many nations will come to the HOUSE of God, and Jesus will teach PEOPLE the word of the Lord from Jerusalem (NEW) When does this happen? lets continue:

Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

This verse plainly and clearly teaches that JESUS is going to rebuke strong nations afar off. Jesus is also going to cause Wars to STOP, and there will be no more WARS nations against nations, Why? Because Jesus is here at that time, is why.

i have showed you but a few verses which plainly teach that Christ is coming to the Earth to RULE over all the Kingdoms of this planet. Kings will bow down to Him, Nations will serve Him. PEOPLE from all over the World will come up year to year to participate in the Feast of Tabernacles, if they don't come up to the HOLY CITY, Jesus will cause it not to rain for those nations that will not come up to Him. When Christ comes back to the Earth the second time, HE will be coming in the New City Jerusalem and when He gets here He will travel around the planet gathering up the True Saints, and the Saints who were first taken up by Him, will travel with Him around the world gathering up all the Saints with Him. Jesus and the Saints will all live in the Holy City, where each and every Saint will have their own Mansion. Jesus and us Saints will reign over all the inhabitants of the Earth, all Kings and all nations will come up to Our City year to year. Howbeit when it first appears and people vanish all over the planet, all nations will rise against the Holy City and try to attack it, they all will die miserably, those who are left and did not go to attack the Holy City will be those who we reign over for a short time.

YOUR ORDER of events does not line up with Scriptures, and if you can't see that, then you are Truly blind, and desire to remain blind, because you refuse to hear the Words of God who told me what is going to happen. i say God told me, but you do not believe. Whose fault is that if you do not believe that God told me these things.

You say and teach that the New City Jerusalem comes at the end, when Saints have all been Raptured, and all the wicked are Judged during the Great White Throne and cast into Hell. Then AFTER all this the Holy City comes down. This teaching is contrary to MANY Scriptures, here is but another that just came to me off the top of my head:

Rev_21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it (The Holy City Jerusalem): and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Did you catch that? KINGS of the Earth are still here, they are NOT Saints, they are not cast into Hell yet, but they bring their glory and honour into the New Jerusalem. Know you not that the entire Chapter of Revelation 21 is talking specifically about the NEW JERUSALEM during the New Heaven and the New Earth? Verse 24 says the kings are still here during that time, can you fit that into your interpretation of YOUR ORDER of events, or is that something you will ignore because it does not fit into YOUR doctrine?

i have told you the TRUTH, and all liars shall burn in the lake of fire and brimstone (Rev 21:8) What then? You think i am lying when i say God told me these things? Would that not make me a LIAR if i say God told me and He did not tell me? Let me burn in hell for all eternity if i am lying. Is it not written to try the spirits to see if they are TRUE or not? And how do you try the Spirits? By the Word of God is how. So then go to the Word of God and try to prove something that i have said above is unscriptural. But i already know this generation, they will not go to the Word of God to try to prove something above is unscriptural, they will not do anything at all because it is contrary to what they THINK is the Truth, based on teachings from men, and from their own interpretations, which thing is not for man, but for God, and will dismiss what i say above, NOT because it is contrary to any Scripture, but contrary to the false doctrine that they call truth.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

The above post particularly the part in highlight was written poorly but according to scripture to be somewhat true. While there are no scriptures that directly states the 'New Holy Temple' actually does come down from heaven, there are scriptures that tell us about the temple, its measurements and its interior design.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

i believe the Apostle John. He saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem coming down from God OUT OF HEAVEN. This is what the Word of God teaches, men teach something else.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Ahwatukee]

Who do you think gathers the Church? So Jesus comes down from Heaven to Gather the Church then goes back to Heaven and comes back again, which is what YOU call the second coming.

The scripture states that Jesus will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are still alive in Christ will be changed and caught up with the dead who will have just resurrected where we will meet the Lord in the air. Then according the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, he will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that the Lord will have prepared for us.

One of the on-going errors is not recognizing that there is a difference between the event of the gathering of the church, opposed to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. These are two separate events, which take place at different times.

So Jesus comes down from Heaven to Gather the Church then goes back to Heaven

Jesus coming to get the church and then take us back to the Father's house, is exactly what scripture states:


"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

So, according to the scripture above, Jesus went to prepare dwelling places for believers, which is in the Father's house (heaven) and then he says that he is going to come back and take us to where he is, which would be the Father's house to those dwelling places. 1 Thes.4:13-18 is a detailed account of the Lord's coming to get us.

This gathering must take place prior to God's wrath being poured out and that because, we as believers have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. We are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Rev.19:6-8 has the bride/church at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven, where she is receiving her fine linen white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14 the bride/church is shown following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen as the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

So it is important to understand that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being two separate events, one being to gather the church and the other to end the age.

Just FYI, when the Lord comes to gather the church he is not returning to the earth, but only calling us up and meeting us in the air and then going back to the Father's house.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Your error is that you don't understand the plan. After the 6th bowl has been poured out, Jesus interjects the following:

"The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

After the 6th bowl has been poured out Jesus says "Look, I come like a thief" this would demonstrate that he hasn't returned yet, but we do see him returning in Rev.19:11-21 which is after the 7th bowl has been poured out. As further proof that Jesus returns after the seven bowls have been poured out and that they complete God's wrath, see the following:

You do error not understanding that not all Scriptures are written in chronological order. You base your interpretations quite a lot on Scriptures being written in a chronological order. IF you need many examples where that is NOT so, let me know, and i can give them to you. Just because it is mentioned AGAIN that Jesus will come as a thief in the night, during the description of the 6th bowel, does not mean that is when Jesus will Rapture the Church. That is YOUR interpretation and is by no means what it actually says.
Tell me. Did the Apostle John know that He was always talking to Christians? When the Apostle John was writing all his stuff, did he know that is was talking to Christians. So then is it so hard for you to believe that the Apostle John when discussing the bowl judgments through in there "Now remember Jesus will come as a thief in the night, as He said He would" Could he not have said such a statement during the 5th bowl? or the 4th? and it is still a TRUE statement? But you have added your interpretation to that verse saying "Because he mentioned that, it must be He comes during that bowl judgment" you are wrong. Interpretations belong to God not to men. There are many examples of things not being in chronological order as it is written, but for some reason YOU have deemed this particular verse to be in a chronological order, you do error.

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

Jesus returns to the earth after the seven bowls as revealed in Rev.19:11-21, which is a detailed account of the second coming.

Rev 19:11-21 says nothing about the seven bowls, says nothing about coming After the bowls. This is what you teach, not Scriptures, That is your interpretation how end time event will happen, NOT what Scriptures teach.

Do you not teach that Jesus comes to the Earth a second time Raptures the Church, then comes a third time with the New City Jerusalem? is that not what you teach? So when does Jesus come and RULE over the nations? You give referrence to Rev 19:11-21 and yet it seems you do not understand it. if you do then please answer this question concerning one of the verses.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Now if you say Jesus shows up and Raptures the Church and goes back to Heaven, only to come again a third time in the end with the New City Jerusalem, tell me, when does HE RULE over the nations with a rod of iron? When does ALL kings bow down to Him? When do all the nations of the Earth serve Him? At the second coming or the third coming? If He does this at the second coming when the Church is Raptured, does that not mean then He STAYS here on Earth to RULE over the nations? Where does HE stay at when He is here on Earth during that time HE RULES over the nations? Or do you think He leaves after gathering the Church goes back to Heaven, and then comes a third time with the Holy City Jerusalem. Well according to you, don't you teach that the Holy City comes down AFTER the 1,000 years and AFTER the all the wicked are cast into hell (White Throne Judgment) Who then are the nations that he RULES over? if all the Good are Raptured Saints, and all the evil are cast into hell, Who does Christ and the Saints RULE over with a rod of iron, if they are already Gone?

You say

Rev.19:11-21, which is a detailed account of the second coming.

And you are absolutely correct. But this same detailed account of the second coming of Christ plainly teach HE RULES at that time. Can you fit that into your interpretations? How does Jesus RULE at the second coming, which in another post you say is the Rapture. So does He Rule over the Earth at the second coming or not?

Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

When does this happen, at the Rapture, or when He returns the third time after the 1,000 years with the Holy City?
If at the Rapture, then that means He is going to STAY here on Earth, which makes since because it is written we reign with Him on the Earth :

Rev_5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

You do error in your interpretation of end time events. Maybe if you were to just pray to God that He tells you what is going to happen He will tell you what is going to happen. But as long as you try to interpret HIS WORD, you will never understand His Truths. God revealeth secrets to his servants the prophets. Did God reveal to you these things that you teach, or are the things you teach come from your interpretations?

Again. Interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN!!! Woe to those who think they are worthy enough to interpret the Word of God, as if they actually could do such a thing. God reveals His secrets to whom He will reveal them.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Bladerunner]

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[/COLOR]
i believe the Apostle John. He saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem coming down from God OUT OF HEAVEN. This is what the Word of God teaches, men teach something else.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

The temple I was speaking of Ezek 40-48.....The Millennial temple.

 

[DiscipleDave]

this is why its so important to rightly divide the word of truth or else u will get mixed up in all kinds of false doctrines.
to say that the first seal doesnt start the wrath of God is just odd. the Lamb is opening the seals and the Lamb is Jesus.

Jesus could come at any moment right now guys. believe that

Was it not the wrath of God that flooded the entire Earth? So then there are many different examples of the wrath of God.

You say

Jesus could come at any moment right now guys. believe that

This is not so. Jesus clearly said what must happen before He comes back? IF He came back now, then He lied. God forbid. Before He comes back the anti-christ will be revealed. This MUST happen before He comes back.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Bladerunner]

Was it not the wrath of God that flooded the entire Earth? So then there are many different examples of the wrath of God.

You say

This is not so. Jesus clearly said what must happen before He comes back? IF He came back now, then He lied. God forbid. Before He comes back the anti-christ will be revealed. This MUST happen before He comes back.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Jesus also told us he would come into the Clouds to gather the Dead in Christ(first) and then His Bride (the Church), From what I am seeing , you might not be a part of that group???????

 

[DiscipleDave]

u know what ive noticed a lot of post-tribbers are doomsday preppers. and guys who think they will take on the antichrist. they call us cowards but they really downplay the level of disaster in the book of revelation.

u guys think u gonna be tough guys when all the grass burns from the earth? good luck farming.

there is no way to avoid the consequences of the vials trumpets and seals.

The Church will go through some of the 7 Year Tribulation Period, but not all of it. roughly 3 1/2 years of it.

u know what guys i believe there will be a total collapse of technology during that time. it will be back to the stoneage. there aint no way technology lasts the onslaught of the seals trumpets and vials. thats just not gonna work. even the scientists are talking about a possible EMP or power spike that can destroy all technology.

Total collapse of technology could easily happen with a polar shift. And the antichrist will fix that issue in time.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[garee]

The scripture states that Jesus will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are still alive in Christ will be changed and caught up with the dead who will have just resurrected where we will meet the Lord in the air.

That describes the "last day" the second and final resurrection for the bride of Christ the church and judgment day for the unbeliever all in the twinkling of the eye.. Six times in John God uses the the phrase the last day to represent the end of time the Sun and moon no longer needed as time keepers. They will be under the feet of His chaste virgin bride the church.

The first resurrection began when Christ said it was finished all of the old testament saints entered the mansion Christ had finished preparing. It is the same resurrection for us up until the last day.. The second and last rapture will be on the last day.
We are in the last days represented as signified, thousand years (a unknown amount of time)

Then according the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, he will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that the Lord will have prepared for us.

All that will go the father’s house are already there. It’s the last day the former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind. .

All who will receive their new incorruptible bodies that will be neither Jew nor gentile male nor female have already received it. The former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind.

One of the on-going errors is not recognizing that there is a difference between the event of the gathering of the church, opposed to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. These are two separate events, which take place at different times.

It’s all one in the same event. The last day

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep (the first resurrection) , that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ (the first resurrection)shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up "together with" them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we (both resurrections) ever be with the Lord.Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1Th 4:18

Christ will not appear the second time as the Son of man .God is not a man as us, never was, and never could be. The promised outward demonstration of pouring out his unseen Spirit was once. We walk by faith not by sight as was faithless Thomas

 

[garee]

Jesus also told us he would come into the Clouds to gather the Dead in Christ(first) and then His Bride (the Church), From what I am seeing , you might not be a part of that group???????

Its all one work of His faith that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure in the twinkling of the eye. No time lapse needed.

 

[Endoscopy]

Who do you think gathers the Church? So Jesus comes down from Heaven to Gather the Church then goes back to Heaven and comes back again, which is what YOU call the second coming. Is that what you are trying to teach? That Jesus coming back the THIRD time is actually the second coming? Seriously? The 2nd coming of Christ is when He comes to the Earth the second time, this second time is when He gathers up the Church. Where in all of Scriptures does it teach that Christ comes a third time? It doesn't, that is what YOU teach, based on your false interpretations of the Word of God, which interpretations does not belong to men, but is for God to reveal to whom God will reveal them to. lol. According to you the second coming of Jesus Christ is the third time He comes to Earth. Clearly you do not understand the TRUTH, and would rather rely on YOUR own interpretations then to believe someone who says God told them exactly what is going to happen. Sad indeed. Believe your own interpretation over what God told me is going to happen. Sad.

Now lets look at what your order of event are and see if they line up with Scriptures.



[/B]Question: During the 1000 year Reign of Christ, who does Christ and the Saints reign over? The Saints Reign with Jesus. So don't say Jesus reigns over the Saints. So You have Jesus Gathering up the Church/Rapture, so then all the Saints are gone. And then you have the 7 year Tribulation period next, which gets rid of ALL the wicked who were not taken up with Christ. Then you have the 1000 year reign of Christ, if the Good are Raptured and the wicked are killed in the 7 year Tribulation Period, who does Christ and the Saints reign over?

Also, Do you not believe Scriptures which teach that we reign with Christ ON EARTH?

Jer_23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

This verse prophesies that Jesus will be King that reigns and prospers, and He shall execute Judgement and justice IN THE EARTH. Tell me when according to YOUR order of events does this prophesy take place? At the Rapture, according to you He gathers up the Church then goes back to Heaven, so it can't be there. This prophesy does not fit into YOUR order at the time of the 1000 year reign where you have it either. Because where you have it, the Good and the bad are all gone, correct. So How can Jesus execute Judgment if there is NOBODY to judge? So then this prophesy is ONLY fulfilled when Jesus is ON the Earth, reigning over people who are in need of Judgements. Where does that fit into YOUR order of events, please tell.

Rev_5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

We, the Saints shall reign over WHO, on the Earth, for a thousand years? Do you know this, or is your interpretations flawed?You see, you teach that Christ comes to the Earth and Raptures the Church and then goes back to Heaven. Scriptures does not teach that ANYWHERE at all, that is what YOU interpret and is NOT what Scriptures teach. Scriptures teach when Christ comes back and gathers up the Saints we will then at that time reign with Him ON THE EARTH for a thousand years. That is what Scriptures teach, and Scriptures is contrary to what you teach. Scriptures says we reign with Christ ON EARTH for a thousand years. Again Who do we reign over?

Can't you see Scriptures teach contrary to your order of events above?

Wait there are tons of Scriptures which proves YOUR order of events can't possibly be correct. Consider the following verse. You have the Holy City coming down after the Rapture, correct? Yes you do. You have the Holy City coming down after the 1000 year reign, correct? Yes you do. You have the Holy City coming down after the Great White Throne Judgment, correct? Yes you do. Then please explain these verses:
Rev_20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This camp of the SAINTS is ON EARTH, which is to say a place where the SAINTS are at. So they compassed the camp of the SAINTS And the beloved City? tell me what city is called the beloved City? That is the Holy City of God. The New Jerusalem

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book.

Heb_11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb_11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb_13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Joh_14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (And where will He be? IN the Beloved City with the Saints reigning over those that are on the Earth.)

Rev_20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the Beloved City: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Now according to YOUR order of events the Holy city comes down AFTER the 7 year Tribulation Period where all the wicked are destroyed. AFTER the Great White Throne Judgement where satan and demons and all his followers are judged and cast into Hell. So then tell me WHO ARE THEY that are devoured for coming against the HOLY CITY?

Also this verse is contrary to the Holy City coming down in the end:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with MEN, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Notice Scriptures plainly teaches that the Holy City comes down out of Heaven, and that Jesus is going to be the God of these MEN. Notice it did not say Saints, but clearly says men. Other Scriptures from the Major Prophets also teach that too.

Here is yet more verses which is contrary to YOUR order of events.

You say Christ comes and get the Church, then goes back to Heaven, then He comes back to Earth with the New Jerusalem AFTER all the wicked people are gone, correct? After 7 year Tribulation, After the 1,000 years, AFTER the Great White Throne. So tell me, where does this prophecy fit into YOUR order of events?

Psa 72:7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth. He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. Yea, ALL KINGS shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Tell me, where do you placed this event in YOUR ORDER? Do you believe Scriptures? These verses plainly teaches that ALL KINGS, and ALL NATIONS will serve Jesus Christ. So tell me where does that fit into YOUR ORDER of events? If ALL KINGS and ALL NATIONS will bow down to Jesus and serve Him, Who are these people? They are NOT Saints they are already taken up with Jesus Christ. So when, according to you, will this prophesy be fulfilled? When will Jesus be ON EARTH right along with those who are NOT Saints, and All the Kings of the Earth will fall down and worship Him, and ALL nations shall serve Him. When is that happen according to YOUR ORDER of events?

Can you explain this verse:

Zec_14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

When is this prophesy going to Happen according to YOUR ORDER of events? This verse plainly teaches that these wicked and evil nations that come against Jerusalem (Which i know to be the Holy City) will come up to worship Jesus from year to year. Really, Year to Year these wicked people who attacked Jerusalem will come up to WORSHIP JESUS, really? When does this happen according to YOUR ORDER of events? When is Jesus here on the EARTH reigning, where people come up year to year to worship Him? Can you explain that?

The Lord even says if they (these wicked people) do not come up year to year to worship Him, that He will cause it not to rain in their lands.

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

So when, according to YOUR ORDER of events will Jesus force people to come and worship Him every Year, or He will not let it rain on their crops and the such? When does that happen according to YOUR interpretations? i don't think you can, because you do not understand the TRUTH which God has told me, and what He has told me lines up with ALL OF SCRIPTURES.

Can you place this prophesy someplace in YOUR ORDER of events that you give, please tell me where this prophesy fits?

Mic 4:1 But in the last days (So we are talking about what is yet to come) it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

What is your interpretation concerning the House of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains? And what is your interpretation that when this does happen, PEOPLE shall flow unto it? lets continue:

Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the HOUSE of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

So then in the last days this event will happen. That many nations will come to the HOUSE of God, and Jesus will teach PEOPLE the word of the Lord from Jerusalem (NEW) When does this happen? lets continue:

Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

This verse plainly and clearly teaches that JESUS is going to rebuke strong nations afar off. Jesus is also going to cause Wars to STOP, and there will be no more WARS nations against nations, Why? Because Jesus is here at that time, is why.

i have showed you but a few verses which plainly teach that Christ is coming to the Earth to RULE over all the Kingdoms of this planet. Kings will bow down to Him, Nations will serve Him. PEOPLE from all over the World will come up year to year to participate in the Feast of Tabernacles, if they don't come up to the HOLY CITY, Jesus will cause it not to rain for those nations that will not come up to Him. When Christ comes back to the Earth the second time, HE will be coming in the New City Jerusalem and when He gets here He will travel around the planet gathering up the True Saints, and the Saints who were first taken up by Him, will travel with Him around the world gathering up all the Saints with Him. Jesus and the Saints will all live in the Holy City, where each and every Saint will have their own Mansion. Jesus and us Saints will reign over all the inhabitants of the Earth, all Kings and all nations will come up to Our City year to year. Howbeit when it first appears and people vanish all over the planet, all nations will rise against the Holy City and try to attack it, they all will die miserably, those who are left and did not go to attack the Holy City will be those who we reign over for a short time.

YOUR ORDER of events does not line up with Scriptures, and if you can't see that, then you are Truly blind, and desire to remain blind, because you refuse to hear the Words of God who told me what is going to happen. i say God told me, but you do not believe. Whose fault is that if you do not believe that God told me these things.

You say and teach that the New City Jerusalem comes at the end, when Saints have all been Raptured, and all the wicked are Judged during the Great White Throne and cast into Hell. Then AFTER all this the Holy City comes down. This teaching is contrary to MANY Scriptures, here is but another that just came to me off the top of my head:

Rev_21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it (The Holy City Jerusalem): and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Did you catch that? KINGS of the Earth are still here, they are NOT Saints, they are not cast into Hell yet, but they bring their glory and honour into the New Jerusalem. Know you not that the entire Chapter of Revelation 21 is talking specifically about the NEW JERUSALEM during the New Heaven and the New Earth? Verse 24 says the kings are still here during that time, can you fit that into your interpretation of YOUR ORDER of events, or is that something you will ignore because it does not fit into YOUR doctrine?

i have told you the TRUTH, and all liars shall burn in the lake of fire and brimstone (Rev 21:8) What then? You think i am lying when i say God told me these things? Would that not make me a LIAR if i say God told me and He did not tell me? Let me burn in hell for all eternity if i am lying. Is it not written to try the spirits to see if they are TRUE or not? And how do you try the Spirits? By the Word of God is how. So then go to the Word of God and try to prove something that i have said above is unscriptural. But i already know this generation, they will not go to the Word of God to try to prove something above is unscriptural, they will not do anything at all because it is contrary to what they THINK is the Truth, based on teachings from men, and from their own interpretations, which thing is not for man, but for God, and will dismiss what i say above, NOT because it is contrary to any Scripture, but contrary to the false doctrine that they call truth.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

I gave up trying to decipher eschatology many many moons ago. I'm 73 and from about 17 to 25 I studied it hard from time to time. Confusion remained. Later I became a deacon and then an elder and had multiple classes in the subject as part of the training for those positions. What I learned was the reason for my confusion. There are 4 Biblical and conflicting views of eschatology. The church I was attending at that time had 4 pastors. It was humorous that each pastor favored a different view but acknowledged that they could be wrong. Those four views theologians have discussed for centuries and all remain Biblical.

There is absolutely no way to resolve those parts of scripture today. So your question is impossible to answer correctly. You can pick one of them but there is no definitive solution.

Here is a site giving the 4 views.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

 

[garee]

Was it not the wrath of God that flooded the entire Earth? So then there are many different examples of the wrath of God.

You say

This is not so. Jesus clearly said what must happen before He comes back? IF He came back now, then He lied. God forbid. Before He comes back the anti-christ will be revealed. This MUST happen before He comes back.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Hi David.

It would seem that wrath is wrath.

When it comes to a end it does not mean more or less ....wrath. Death is death
,
The full wrath of God is being revealed from heaven called death. We all live in a body of death that lust after sin. These bodies of death will be here right up till the last day.

Christ satisfied the eternal wages of the second death. Believers will arise to new spirit life in there new incorruptible bodies.

All die not receiving the promise. The first will be last, vice versa. . He has hid those that he considers the world of not being worthy of . Giving us the names of some more notable Abel ,Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sara, the harlot Rahab, Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel

Not revealing the names of ones the world was not worthy of. He hid them in caves. Some like David or Elijah he called out to be used as examples. None are worthy.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Who do you think gathers the Church? So Jesus comes down from Heaven to Gather the Church then goes back to Heaven and comes back again, which is what YOU call the second coming.

The scripture states that Jesus will descend from heaven

True is likewise says that the New City Jerusalem will come down out of Heaven.

The scripture states that Jesus will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are still alive in Christ will be changed and caught up with the dead who will have just resurrected where we will meet the Lord in the air.

This is all True, and according to Scriptures.

Then according the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, he will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that the Lord will have prepared for us.

And here lies the problem, YOU think the Fathers house is in Heaven, you think that Jesus takes the Church back to Heaven. Scriptures does not teach that at all, that is what you teach and what you falsely believe. When Jesus comes back to Rapture the Church He is bring the Place that He has prepared for us, as He said He would, When He comes back to get the Church He is bringing His Bride with Him, the Holy City Jerusalem. This is the Father's HOUSE, The Father comes to Earth in the Holy city. Know you not Scriptures?

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the 1) Lord God Almighty (Father) and 2) the Lamb (Jesus) are the temple of it.

The Throne of God is where the Father sits, and the the Throne of the Lamb (Jesus) will be to the Father's Right. The Holy Ghost will be to the Father's Left. The Temple of God that comes down to man is the New Jerusalem. Where the Father and the Son will be at. and we the Saints will be ONE with them inside the Holy City, when Christ gathers the Church.

It is your interpretation that interprets that Christ comes and gathers the Church then takes off with the Saints to Heaven. Scriptures does not teach that, nor does it even imply that false doctrine.

One of the on-going errors is not recognizing that there is a difference between the event of the gathering of the church, opposed to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

One of the on-going errors is not realizing men should not be interpreting the Word of God and teaching false doctrines.
When Christ comes back, He is not ONLY Coming back to gather the Church, He is coming back to RULE all the nations on the entire planet. He is not coming back to get the Church and take off again, that is a false doctrine that can be found NOWHERE in all of Scriptures.

These are two separate events, which take place at different times.

Says YOU, not Scriptures.

Jesus coming to get the church and then take us back to the Father's house, is exactly what scripture states:

True, the problem is YOU think the Father's house is in Heaven, and that Jesus did not bring it with Him when He gathers the Church. We are Raptured to be with the Father, living in the Father's House, living in the New City Jerusalem. The problem isn't what Scriptures teach, the problem is that you teach the Father's House is in Heaven, which thing Scriptures does not teach, but you teach. We Saints are gathered to go to the Father's House and live, and that House is the Holy City that will be over old Jerusalem in the middle east.

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Amen, The problem is that you don't think He is bringing it with Him when He comes to gather the Church to Him and His Father. That is the problem here. See YOU think the Holy City is coming down with Jesus on His 3rd return to the Earth, which thing has never been taught in all of Scriptures. NONE of the prophets, major or minors, has ever taught or even implied that Christ would return to the Earth a third time. That is YOU that teaches that false doctrine. When Christ Raptures the Church, He will have with Him the Holy City. This is something that you fail to understand in all of your trying to interpret the Word of God via your own intellect.

So, according to the scripture above, Jesus went to prepare dwelling places for believers, which is in the Father's house (heaven) and then he says that he is going to come back and take us to where he is, which would be the Father's house to those dwelling places. 1 Thes.4:13-18 is a detailed account of the Lord's coming to get us.

All True, but the problem is YOUR interpretation as to when this will happen. YOu fail to understand these verses:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, (You think this happens at Jesus 3rd Return which Scriptures does not teach) prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with MEN, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

This verse say MEN, not Saints. You do error not understanding the WHEN the HOLY City will come down to the Earth, and it will come with Jesus Christ.

Joh_14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This verse says we will be raptured up and be with Jesus where He is. You teach that we are Raptured up and go to Heaven, which thing Scriptures does not teach. Where is Jesus when He Raptures the Church, Well He comes down with the place He has prepared for us, then He travels around the world with the Saints that He is resurrecting and gathers them to be with Him where He is at, and He is at the Holy City, where He and the Saints will RULE over all the nations of the Earth, where all kings will bow to Him and all nations will serve Him. And all people will come to the Holy City once every Year to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles, if they do not come and worship Jesus will cause it not to rain for that nation. These things are plainly revealed in Scriptures. You teach something that is NOT in Scriptures. You teach that Jesus comes and gets the Church and takes them to HEAVEN, which is NOT what Scriptures teach. Scriptures teach we are taken up to be with Jesus where He is, and He is with the Father, in the New Jerusalem that sets down on four mountains for legs. This creates a huge valley underneath the Holy City, and from the Holy City come out the River of Life, and anywhere the River water touches becomes like the Garden of Eden. All these things i know to be True, because He told me they are True.

This gathering must take place prior to God's wrath being poured out

Why MUST? because you think it MUST be so. Does Scriptures teach that is the case? It is your opinion that the gathering takes place prior to God's wrath being poured out, Why do you think there is a huge debate as to when Christ is going to Return? Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib. Because there are no Scriptures which specifically teach one way or the other. So then it is your opinion that it MUST take place when YOU say it takes place. Does Scriptures teach He takes the Church prior to the wrath being poured out? NO. Does Scriptures teach He takes the Church after the wrath of God is poured out? NO. So then why do you say "MUST"?

This gathering must take place prior to God's wrath being poured out and that because, we as believers have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. We are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Anyone who sows to the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption. You reap what you sow. Are you suggesting these verses are made void because we have been credited with righteousness. If that is the case why would the Apostle even warn us of such things, if you sow to the flesh of the flesh you shall reap corruption. Are you exempt? Are you above the Word of God and that does not apply to you or me? So then if Scriptures are True, and God does not lie, then if we sow to the flesh are you saying it is impossible for us to reap corruption during the Tribulation Period? You act as if Christians are exempt from suffering in the flesh, that we Christians must be taken up, because we are not appointed to wrath. Here is the Truth and i have told you before, so it is not like you will hear it again, but for the sake of all those others who will be reading this, i will repeat it. NO Christian is appointed to the wrath of God, but if any Christian sows to the flesh they will reap corruption in their flesh, All Christians will indeed reap what they have themselves sown. That is the TRUTH. And i say that many will suffer in their flesh during the first 3 1/2 years of the 7 year Tribulation Period, which causes a great falling away to happen. But if they endure to the end and don't fall away from the Faith, they shall be Saved when Jesus comes back to the Earth with the Holy City and gathers them up to Him to be with Him in the Holy City.

Rev.19:6-8 has the bride/church at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven,

You say it is in Heaven, i know it takes place in the Holy City, New Jerusalem. Rev 19:6-8 says absolutely NOTHING about it being in Heaven, that is what YOU teach.

Rev.19:6-8 has the bride/church at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven,where she is receiving her fine linen white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14 the bride/church is shown following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen as the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

Rev 19:14 reveals Jesus comes down out of Heaven, this is the Second Coming. The Holy City comes down out of Heaven too at this time.

So it is important to understand that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being two separate events, one being to gather the church and the other to end the age.

i understand that is what YOU Think and believe and teach. Scriptures however does not agree with that doctrine. Scriptures teach Jesus is coming Back. YOU teach He is coming back, leaves, and then comes back again. Scriptures teach that when Jesus comes, He is going to RULE over the Earth, and ALL kings will bow down to Him, and ALL Nations will serve Him, and we will reign with Him. YOU teach the second time He comes back it is to gather the Church, then He takes off to Heaven and does not RULE on Earth at this Time, but then you teach He comes back a 3rd time, and at that time there are no people left. (7 Year Tribulation Period, Wrath of God finished, 1,000 years goes by, White Throne judgement and satan, demons, and all the wicked who follow him are cast into hell, and then AFTER all those events, is when Jesus comes down in the Holy City. The problem with that false doctrine, is when does Jesus RULE over the Nations of the World? When do Kings bow down to Him. When do All Nations serve Him.
i am telling you the TRUTH, when Jesus Returns the second time, he is coming to gather up the Church, and Jesus and we are going to reign over the entire Earth, out of the Holy City New Jerusalem. That is what Scriptures teach, and you brother teach contrary to Scriptures.

Just FYI, when the Lord comes to gather the church he is not returning to the earth, but only calling us up and meeting us in the air and then going back to the Father's house.

True, and for your information, when Jesus comes the 2nd time to the Earth, He is bringing the Father's House with Him. This is something that you don't seem to grasp and understand.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

Was it not the wrath of God that flooded the entire Earth? So then there are many different examples of the wrath of God.

You say

This is not so. Jesus clearly said what must happen before He comes back? IF He came back now, then He lied. God forbid. Before He comes back the anti-christ will be revealed. This MUST happen before He comes back.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Jesus also told us he would come into the Clouds to gather the Dead in Christ(first) and then His Bride (the Church), From what I am seeing , you might not be a part of that group???????

Do you know how you can tell if Jesus is in a person or not? The Love they have one for another?
Why would you say such a hurtful thing to another person, that YOU think they are not going to be part of that group? Have i said something to offend you?
Have i committed any sin? Have i said anything contrary to the Word of God? Who is whispering to you that i might not be a part of that group?
Why would you say such a thing? Where is your Love for others?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Endoscopy]

That describes the "last day" the second and final resurrection for the bride of Christ the church and judgment day for the unbeliever all in the twinkling of the eye.. Six times in John God uses the the phrase the last day to represent the end of time the Sun and moon no longer needed as time keepers. They will be under the feet of His chaste virgin bride the church.

The first resurrection began when Christ said it was finished all of the old testament saints entered the mansion Christ had finished preparing. It is the same resurrection for us up until the last day.. The second and last rapture will be on the last day.
We are in the last days represented as signified, thousand years (a unknown amount of time)



All that will go the father’s house are already there. It’s the last day the former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind. .

All who will receive their new incorruptible bodies that will be neither Jew nor gentile male nor female have already received it. The former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind.



It’s all one in the same event. The last day

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep (the first resurrection) , that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ (the first resurrection)shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up "together with" them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we (both resurrections) ever be with the Lord.Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1Th 4:18

Christ will not appear the second time as the Son of man .God is not a man as us, never was, and never could be. The promised outward demonstration of pouring out his unseen Spirit was once. We walk by faith not by sight as was faithless Thomas

Jesus created the heavens and the earth. Read John Chapter 1.

Summary
In the begining was the word. That word created the heavens and earth. The word was the light. The light became flesh. John came to testify to that light. The light was in the world and the world was made by him but the world knew him not. But to those who knew him he gave the power to become a son of God.

In other words as Jesus told his disciples the Father and I are one. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. Seems to me Jesus was wholly God and wholly man. Hard to understand but a fact!!! It is considered heresy to deny either one.

 

[DiscipleDave]

I gave up trying to decipher eschatology many many moons ago.

Please try to speak in lamens terms, i have no ideal what eschatology means.

I'm 73 and from about 17 to 25 I studied it hard from time to time. Confusion remained. Later I became a deacon and then an elder and had multiple classes in the subject as part of the training for those positions. What I learned was the reason for my confusion. There are 4 Biblical and conflicting views of eschatology. The church I was attending at that time had 4 pastors. It was humorous that each pastor favored a different view but acknowledged that they could be wrong. Those four views theologians have discussed for centuries and all remain Biblical.

i started studying the Word at age 10 or 11. By the age of 12 i had read the entire Bible front to back 3 times. lived in a Monastery, countless hours of studying the Word, Hebrew, Greek. Now i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life, and NONE of it compares to what God told me in our conversations. i would have many questions prepared to ask Him when He came to talk with me again, and He would answer them all. i would ask question and He would tell me the answers. So i really never cared for what theologians say or teach. If i have learned from God Himself, what need would there be for me to learn what men teach, theologians or otherwise. Why would i care to go and learn about the 4, what did you call it, scrolling up...... OH yeah, why would i care to go and learn the 4 views of eschatology, when what i know is what God told me. Does that make any since for a person who is taught by God to go and try to be taught by what other men think and believe? What i teach is what God has told me. Now granted there are things that i can still learn, because there were plenty of questions that i did not ask Him during our conversations, because He stopped talking with me, when i ran from God in 1994. Haven't heard a peep from Him since. OK tearing up again, i can't think about that too long, i will start balling. Anyways what i do teach is what God has told me, therefore why would i need to learn about eschatology?

There is absolutely no way to resolve those parts of scripture today.

Are you suggesting God CAN'T reveal it to anyone at all? Know you not that all things are possible to them that know God? Ask and you shall receive, believing you shall receive it. Are you saying if a person asks God to resolve those parts of Scriptures that He will not do it? If you want you prayers answered you should do these things in order for God to answer your questions, and He will but only if you do these things. Click HERE to find out what those things are.

So your question is impossible to answer correctly. You can pick one of them but there is no definitive solution.

There is ONE Truth, and that is what God gives to whomever God reveals it.

Here is a site giving the 4 views.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

Sorry not interested. But if it offends you that i do not take a look at it. i will take a look at it if you ask me again.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave