Not By Works

[PHart]

the question i have is whether "be openhanded and freely lend" is the same as "sell everything you have and give to the poor"

"Sell everything you have and give to the poor" is simply a practical expression of "be openhanded and freely lend". One that is fitting for this particular individual, not necessarily for every one.

The point is, he has not been keeping the lawful command to be generous despite his claim to have kept the law. Remember, he asked what he must do to enter eternal life. Jesus told him. And he pointed out in a not so obvious way that he must also keep the command to be generous to enter eternal life. Not because keeping them earns eternal life, but because keeping them would show he has the faith of Abraham, the faith that justifies apart from what it does.

 

[VCO]

What does it matter? 'Sealed' means 'unable to be sealed' in your doctrine. So how can anything that is sealed be accidentally spilled out? Or for that matter, how can it be purposely opened and spilled out according to your doctrine?

Put your thinking cap on and learn. SEALED is a reference to a Jewish Wedding. The Bridegroom before he left the old dwelling place of the Bride, for the separation period to build a new dwelling place for his bride, in His Father's House; would give his Bride a Precious gift to SEAL His Promise to return for her. He gave us the Holy Spirit the SEAL of HIS PROMISE TO RETURN FOR US. Thus we wait, keeping ready, for the Bridegroom to call us out with the voice of the Archangel, to go to the WEDDING in His Father's House, where HE has prepared a place for us.

 

[PHart]

Put your thinking cap on and learn. SEALED is a reference to a Jewish Wedding. The Bridegroom before he left the old dwelling place of the Bride, for the separation period to build a new dwelling place for his bride, in His Father's House; would give his Bride a Precious gift to SEAL His Promise to return for her. He gave us the Holy Spirit the SEAL of HIS PROMISE TO RETURN FOR US. Thus we wait, keeping ready, for the Bridegroom to call us out with the voice of the Archangel, to go to the WEDDING in His Father's House, where HE has prepared a place for us.

Sounds interesting, but actually Paul talks about the seal of the Spirit being like a down payment, a promissory note of sorts for the remainder to be delivered later: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G728&t=KJV

The point is, 'sealed' does not mean by definition 'not able to be unsealed' as is so often implied by OSAS folks. It simply means sealed, period. It does not have the added definition of 'not being able to be unsealed'. We are the ones who have added that connotation to the word.

 

[stonesoffire]

I suppose if a believer's unfaithfulness is them not having led anybody to Christ, and, therefore, they do not have anybody on the other side of the Judgment to be a reward for them, then yes, it could be talking about that. But that is still clearly distinguished from denying Christ, for which Christ will deny you.

I must be tired. Didn't even notice the phrase, if we deny, He also will deny.

So, question Phart.

deny:

G720

ἀρνέομαι
arneomai
ar-neh'-om-ahee
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the middle of G4483; to contradict, that is, disavow, reject, abnegate: - deny, refuse.
Total KJV occurrences: 31


Deny "him". Him is added. Not in the original manuscript. So G1


G1

Α
A
al'-fah
Of Hebrew origin; the first letter of the alphabet: figuratively only (from its use as a numeral) the first. Often used (usually “an”, before a vowel) also in composition (as a contraction from G427) in the sense of privation; so in many words beginning with this letter; occasionally in the sense of union (as a contraction of G260): - Alpha.
Total KJV occurrences: 4


G4483

ῥέω
rheō
hreh'-o
For certain tenses of which a prolonged form (ἐρέω ereō) is used; and both as alternate for G2036; perhaps akin (or identical) with G4482 (through the idea of pouring forth); to utter, that is, speak or say: - command, make, say, speak (of). Compare G3004.
Total KJV occurrences: 26



G720

ἀρνέομαι
arneomai
ar-neh'-om-ahee
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the middle of G4483; to contradict, that is, disavow, reject, abnegate: - deny, refuse.
Total KJV occurrences: 31

Its saying if we first disavow, He will disavow us. This in my opinion is not the believer, but an unbeliever.

My question would be do you agree.

 

[posthuman]

No. But that hardly means he pre-programmed some people to be believers, and others unbelievers. Can you see that it's possible for God to know beforehand whether you will be soil that the word of God will grow in, or that you will be soil where it will not grow in without that meaning God purposely made the soil that way and because of that it has no choice but to be that?

He knows
does He only know because He's really good at probability & statistics?
or because He made us?

 

[blue_ladybug]

How posthuman dances:

 

[PHart]

Its saying if we first disavow, He will disavow us. This in my opinion is not the believer, but an unbeliever.

My question would be do you agree.

It includes, both, those who never really believed and those who have believed. How do we know that? By the context. Look at who Paul is applying the saying to:

10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

14Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. (2 Timothy 2:10-14 NASB)

 

[PHart]

He knows
does He only know because He's really good at probability & statistics?
or because He made us?

Because he knows all.

 

[mailmandan]

Put your thinking cap on and learn. SEALED is a reference to a Jewish Wedding. The Bridegroom before he left the old dwelling place of the Bride, for the separation period to build a new dwelling place for his bride, in His Father's House; would give his Bride a Precious gift to SEAL His Promise to return for her. He gave us the Holy Spirit the SEAL of HIS PROMISE TO RETURN FOR US. Thus we wait, keeping ready, for the Bridegroom to call us out with the voice of the Archangel, to go to the WEDDING in His Father's House, where HE has prepared a place for us.

Vines Expository Dictionary of NT Words:

<1,,728,arrabon> originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

That's good enough for me--"guaranteeing our inheritance"--"unto/for/until" the day of redemption.

 

[dcontroversal]

Probably because you only know the distorted twist on it that my oppents put on it. If I explain it to you you'll see how they've been unfairly, dishonestly, and unkindly twisting it.

Not hardly.......your stance.....the sealing of the Holy Spirit compared to a bowl of left over lasagna that can be unsealed....

Regardless of how you twist it, embellish it, mix it, puree it, stir it, present it, try to sell it, push it.....it will always be false, blasphemous and contrary to the truth.........

 

[dcontroversal]

See? Did I ask in any way for such a response? No, I didn't. It is just as the Bible says it is.

You made a subtle unfounded attack....now your dishonesty is seen and your motive.....no one asked you to post what you posted.....so....what makes yours right and my response wrong...what I said was true as well.....

Originally Posted by Speak2Me

How do we know who's right? Do we know by their doctrine? Sometimes, if that doctrine is completely messed up, it's obvious.
But we don't have to know if the doctrine's right or not to be able to determine its validity.
Jesus told us how to determine someone's beliefs are right simply by their attitudes. The way they act.

Matt 7:15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

A godly person will have a peaceful, gentle spirit, while the ungodly person who lives by false doctrine doesn't have the Spirit of God in them to strengthen their self-control, or help them watch their mouth.
It becomes rather obvious when people shoot off their mouths with arrogance & pride, for such isn't the fruit of the Spirit.
The righteous bear the fruit of the Spirit, and the wicked the fruits that Satan produces to spread disinformation and lies, while bringing destruction in the lives of the righteous.
Just watch who's attacking who with no Biblical evidence, and wicked will reveal themselves.
Watch carefully.

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Yeah...watch who posts scripture out of context, undermines and devalues the Holy Spirit of God and His work and then claims they keep themselves saved...Paul. Jesus, Elijah, John the Baptist all used sarcasm when dealing with false teachers who led people to hell by their dogma....

Maybe add some value to the convo and defend the truth instead of the crack jack left over lasagna dogma pushed by a few.....

 

[dcontroversal]

it doesn't. That was the point I was making. It won't ever unseal. It's His choosing us, securing us, fencing us around in protection, and working to bring us to completion, the fullness of His glory in the body of Christ.

Did I,post that without an adequate explanation?

I read what you wrote wrong. I saw able to be unsealed, not unable.

Well, gave the right answer.

AMEN...to say the Sealing of God can be undone is found no where in scripture.....and actually degrades and blasphemes what the Spirit does on our behalf.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Deuteronomy 15:7-8 is a NEW law? Interesting. What was really interesting was you ridiculing me for saying Deuteronomy 15:7-8 was a law of generosity. DEUTERONOMY 15:7-8....get it? It's the law, lol. Read it...then tell me it's not a lawful command to be generous:

"7If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. 9Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land." (Deuteronomy 15:7-11 NASB)

Like I said, you left off half of the verse and the context of what JESUS was actually saying to make it say something that it did not say....and regardless....KEEPING the law saves NO ONE....end of story

JESUS also said....But the disciples were indignant when they saw this, and said, "Why this waste? "For this perfume might have been sold for a high price and the money given to the poor." But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you bother the woman? For she has done a good deed to Me. "For you always have the poor with you; but you do not always have Me.

 

[PHart]

That's good enough for me--"guaranteeing our inheritance"--"unto/for/until" the day of redemption.

Yes, keep believing so you'll have that which guarantees your inheritance! You won't get 2 inches into the kingdom without that guarantee.

 

[Snoozy]

The point is, 'sealed' does not mean by definition 'not able to be unsealed' as is so often implied by OSAS folks. It simply means sealed, period. It does not have the added definition of 'not being able to be unsealed'. We are the ones who have added that connotation to the word.

i havent done a topic study on that word but im pretty sure when God seals something its a done deal.

 

[PHart]

i havent done a topic study on that word but im pretty sure when God seals something its a done deal.

"19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19 NASB)

God will indeed revoke His Spirit from a person who once had a stake in the eternal inheritance. God can unseal someone just as easily as you and I can unseal a bowl of leftover Lasagna in the refrigerator. Removing the Holy Spirit from a person is not the rock that God can not lift.

 

[dcontroversal]

i havent done a topic study on that word but im pretty sure when God seals something its a done deal.

And you would be correct....his version of a used bowl of unsealed lasagna.....does not pass the true test.......and equates to a self saving working for denial of Jesus pseudo salvation......

 

[PHart]

And you would be correct....his version of a used bowl of unsealed lasagna.....does not pass the true test.......and equates to a self saving working for denial of Jesus pseudo salvation......

Which part of "God will take away his part from the tree of life" (Revelation 22:19 NASB) do you not understand?

What I've been saying does in fact pass the test of scripture.

 

[PHart]

Brace yourself, folks. The 'not really' doctrines of OSAS are about to be unleashed. Along with the usual berating, degrading, and insults.

 

[dcontroversal]

"19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19 NASB)

God will indeed revoke His Spirit from a person who once had a stake in the eternal inheritance. God can unseal someone just as easily as you and I can unseal a bowl of leftover Lasagna in the refrigerator. Removing the Holy Spirit from a person is not the rock that God can not lift.

Folks......the bolded is as false as can be, not of God and is as blasphemous as it comes....God states clearly sealed UNTO the day of redemption and there are no but's, if's or and's added...do not believe the above bolded lie....as far as the scripture....it is taken out of context and the loss of salvation hung upon it.......taken in the whole it is not discussing one who is saved and then loses salvation.......the only thing that results in one NOT BEING SAVED to begin with is a lack of saving faith into the work of JESUS.....which is a one off event with continuing present results.....it is clear from ALL accounts that the book of the living was written before creation was cast down and has every man, woman and child in it, those who fail to acknowledge saving faith into Christ are removed

And where in that verse does it say thy are unsealed.....? it doesn't