Not By Works

[BillG]

You can say. And you do say so.

There are others who say they do sin and acknowledge that before God, they confess it (totally different from those who don’t give two hoots about sinning)

You are entitled to your views as are other believers.

Those believers you judge as sinners and more or less say they are going to hell.

If memory serves me it’s Jesus who sits on judgement over people both those who profess faith and those who don’t.

I certainly can’t judge another beleiver.

If as you say you are not sinless is there any reason why I can’t place my faith in you?
Afterall You now place yourself in the judgement seat of Jesus and are perfect to do so.

Why wouldn’t I? I’ve never conversed with Jesus as a physical person like I do with you.

We know Jesus is perfect and also you are saying you are.

Whom do I follow?
You or him?

sorry just to clarify

If as you say you are not sinless is there any reason why I can’t place my faith in you?
Afterall You now place yourself in the judgement seat of Jesus and are perfect to do so.

If as you say you are sinless is there any reason why I can’t place my faith in you?

 

[BillG]

Night night peeps.

Remember our Father loves us as much as he loves Jesus.

Jesus said it himself and he isn’t a liar.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Pjw I do not willfully sin.. why? Because GOD loves and forgave me of my sin through Faith in His Son my Lord and Saviour.

Our Gracious GOD is my Father through Faith in His Son and I love my Father. I delight in His Commandments because I Love Him.. more than anything.. everyone knows the score I won’t tell my children a lie that I love them more than GOD because it is GOD who taught me what Love is.. and through this Love I can love.. Many would gasp but My First Love is GOD.. and though the Messiah teaches this.. I find it in my Heart as if His Word testifies to that which is within.. rather than the other.. which is the Holy Spirit of Truth.. the same Truth spoken by the Messiah.. a mystery .. not for we believers.. because His Words are life and that life be within all by the power of GOD to those that Repent and Believe.

Here is my thought.. rather than tell everyone you don’t sin.. because we can neither attest or deny.. but Christ will judge you and I as doers of the Royal Law..

Why not share the Love and forgiveness you received.. yes share your hope and point sheep forward to the Good Shepherd so they Hear His voice as you did..

GOD is my Lord and GOD Himself knows if I willfully sin.. for like Bill said we are given our daily prayer and I will not sleep until I pray this.. no boast .. but the Words are part of our daily walk on the path of Righteousness..

Because of Christ’s Victory I’m under Grace at liberty to Love.. Kept by the power of GOD just as many are and undeservedly..

1 Corinthians 6:9-12 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Trust the keeping power of the name of the Lord and the Spirit, folks. We can't be like the hog being washed up for the county fair, only to roll in the next mud puddle inside the gate on the way to the barn. If it could, should it explain it was in fact washed clean, but the mud keeps getting on, so it needs daily washing? We are supposed to be freed up enough not to fall back, backslide by habit, forever needing the same treatment from God we needed before we first believed.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Is it evil, justified by works or rejecting the Messiah if one believes these verses to be true?

1 John 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

Romans 6:16, "”Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?”

Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

[mailmandan]

Pjw I do not willfully sin.. why? Because GOD loves and forgave me of my sin through Faith in His Son my Lord and Saviour.

To "willfully sin" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. No remorse, no repentance just bring it on!

The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

 

[Hizikyah]

Is it evil, justified by works or rejecting the Messiah if one believes these verses to be true?

1 John 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

Romans 6:16, "”Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?”

Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

You do know Paul wrote both

Romans 6:16, "”Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?”

and

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:3, "For not knowing the righteousness of Yah, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not subject themselves toa the righteousness of Yah."

Also I don't think you understand what he is saying, for it would be sticking up forthe pharisees who made their own law...

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them; And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:3-4, "For not knowing the righteousness of Yah, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of Yah. For Messiah is the goal of the ‘Torah unto righteousness’ to everyone who believes."

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For not knowing the righteousness of Yah, and seeking to establish their own righteousness;[/FONT][/FONT]
​

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them; And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"[/FONT]
​

We can not earn Salvation by only obedience to the Law of the Creator, as James said and as Yahshua Himself said it takes faith and works. Romans 10:4 is a verses mistranslated in the majority of Bibles thus blurring the lines of truth. Christ is not “the end of the Law” but rather Yahshua showed the intent, ultimate result or goal (telos) of keeping the Law of YHWH.

The word translated “end” is word#G5056, τέλος, telos, tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.


Lets look at places this word is used in the Konie Greek originals to get an idea of it meaning and context;


Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."


Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."


1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."


1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith – the salvation of your souls."


If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away or at an end in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away or at an end in 1 Peter 1:9. Unless of course “telos” means the goal.


Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #G5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)


HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.


James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”


James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose(telos) of יהוה, that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”


1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”


1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”

 

[stonesoffire]

BECAUSE THEY REJECT WHAT GOD ACTULLY SAID, AND INSERT THEIR OWN OPINIONS OF WHAT THEY THINK GOD SHOULD HAVE SAID, INSTEAD OF FOLLOWING PAUL'S EXAMPLE. THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THAT SAME COIN IS EQUALLY TRUE. THE LOVE ONLY" WATERED DOWN FALSE GOSPEL OF EASY BELIEVISM IS FREQUENTLY DENYING THE WRATH OF GOD, EVEN SAYING, "A LOVING GOD WOULD NEVER SEND ANYBODY TO HELL." Here is Paul's example:

Acts 20:27-28 (NIV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

Hi VCO

While I agree with your post, I don't think it answers my question. Our hearts are to seek God and desire His likeness. So why would we concentrate on negative scripture that states what could happen to those in unbelief. And that would be those who reject Jesus. We should be meditating on the scriptures that build up our faith and reveals Father in some way through Jesus.

That is what I don't understand. Those who believe we are to follow law always post those scriptures as if we who believe in the security of the believer are having wild parties and whatever else is involved in the world.

I have many relatives who grew up in the same manner of living as my family. Most all attended church. Most all have been born again. But, some didn't live as though they were and even me until the age of 22. But, now they are coming back to the Lord. My family is having a revival of sorts. I contribute this to my ancestors prayers on both side of my parents. So my conclusion is whether or not we fall for a time, the Lord never gives up on His own. Why would we have a mindset of finality of salvation to someone who is struggling with old habits. Why not care that they return to the Lord and claim the promises?

If we love others we are to believe the best of them. And care about their soul enough to pray. Not condemn one to hell for weakness.

That is what I see when I see someone posting negatively.

I seriously doubt anyone hasn't heard a warning about hell. And fears it. If one is scared into going to church, they aren't going to have a solid love relationship with God. Only unless Fathers love through Jesus is revealed through the preaching.

See my point? I pray the promises over my loved ones. Not the wrath of God to bring fear.

 

[dcontroversal]

That's one of the problems in CC... members "passing over" wicked and rebellious behavior, and not calling them out on it.
If everyone did their job like they're supposed to, this thread would have been shut down months ago.

I hear a violin playing cry me a river................nothing wrong with this thread.....and only time we fire back is when those who believe in salvation by grace through faith get accused of saying the following or pushing the following...

a. We can live anyway we want to because grace out bounds sin
b. We push and embrace sin and living in sin because grace out bounds sin
c. We can live and sin all we want because we are eternally saved and secure
d. We teach a do nothing gospel
e. We do not teach to work or bear fruit

etc...

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH..........CRYYYYYYYYYY MEEEE a RIVERRRRRRRRRR LAAA lALLLA llLALALALLALAL

 

[dcontroversal]

Question...Who do you think the devil attacks harder: the man who has given himself over to sin or the man who resists the devil's temptations?
I could posit that those in Christ, (the perfectly sinless), need Jesus more than the sinner.
Thanks be to God for His gracious protections.

The devil has no need to attack the lost....he already has them....but to ruin a saved man's witness.....jackpot....

And your point proves what exactly....nothing.....Peter writes to those who have received like precious faith and states clearly that the devil walks about seeking to devour them....

Funny thing about PETER....he vacillated, denied the Lord, lacked faith, disagreed and argued with JESUS. was even called SATAN once by JESUS.....He alone disproves your point....JESUS told him that the devil wants to sift him as wheat.....AND even AFTER salvation, fruit worthy of repentance, immersion, walking with JESUS for 3+ years, healing the sick, casting out demons, walking on water, raising the dead, preaching, immersing new converts etc.......WAS TOLD

WHEN you are CONVERTED (MATURED) feed my sheep....

WAKE UP man.....even the most righteous of the bible failed, sinned, and did the things like listed ABOVE.....OUR daily sanctification, maturity and growth HAVE NOTHING to do with the salvation and faith we ALREADY POSSESS........

HE that is without sin cast the first stone!

 

[dcontroversal]

You have COMPLETELY dodged answering any of my questions.

I'll try one more time.

1. Have you committed ANY of the sins I listed in the last post? IE..Driving over the speed limit, anger, fear, worry, impure thoughts, etc... ​HAVE YOU SINNED SINCE BEING SAVED? COMMITTING ANY OFFENSE?

2. Paul accused Peter of the sin of hypocrisy. Did Paul make a false accusation (sin), or did Peter sin by being a hypocrite? Either way, are Peter and Paul in Christ even though one of them sinned?

3. Jesus tells Peter to forgive his BROTHER EVERY time he sins. If a BROTHER NEVER sins, why does Peter, or Jesus, need to forgive them?


Your pride has been noted. The question is can YOU note it?

Of course they will not admit they sin.....how can they...destroys their false sinless perfectionist cracker jack theology.....

EVEN DANIEL confessed his sins......now watch them say Daniel was not saved.......

 

[dcontroversal]

If people think they are sinless. They are decieved. And they certainly do not know God or of him (they have made up their own God.). Because if they knew God, they would look at their lives and see all their sin, and stop trying to hide it away as if it is not there.

Why people continue to give these people an audience by responding to them, is beyond me..

If we do not spray the weeds with Round Up they will choke out the garden...........

 

[dcontroversal]

Let me just point out, the argument has been going on for 2073 pages over if the Scriptures are true when they state the following:

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Are we all just misunderstanding Paul?

NO.....some.......not ALL

 

[dcontroversal]

The problem is not the matter of believing these scriptures. The problem is thinking these scriptures make grace a license to sin, which many in the church think.[/QUOTE]

EVERY time you say this you lie...NO ONE promotes this, states this, embraces this, or even slightly pushes this......one who believes continuing in the faith is what saves does not MISREPRESENT the truth like the above bolded as much as you do.

 

[dcontroversal]

and some Christians think they do not sin. ( no one is sinless ) . some Christians think they are saved today, but tomorrow , don't know. some think we have to keep the Torah. why don't you address them, and their error instead of projecting stuff that YOU made up in your head.

Exactly..............instead of misrepresenting, embellishing and flat lying about what we believe and teach.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Hebrews 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



Does this mean there is sorer punishment for those that received the knowledge of truth and sinned wilfully? I think so.. so our heart must be set to not sin wilfully.. which affirms with the Lord’s Testament. I honestly don’t think anyone here would sin wilfully.. anyone that proposes any to sin so that GOD’s Grace abounds would be of evil mindset.. like the serpent beguiling.. I think we all here know that if GOD said don’t eat.. then we don’t eat no matter what the serpent says...

Why not post the context of chapter 10......instead of starting out with a verse that does not convey the context......and then APPLY it biblically instead of hanging your point on it.

 

[joefizz]

Well looks like the underlying problem is a confusion between being "free from sin" and "being sinless/perfect" Jesus is the truth and sets us free from sin free indeed but this does not make us sinless it means we are given a capacity through Jesus to "reject sin" it does not change the fact that we "have sin" but through Jesus are "not a slave to sin" once saved through him and thus being "born again" in christ but though our "hearts and thoughts" change our flesh still remains and so though it doesn't control us when we focus on Jesus it will still persist to enflare our minds and so also shall satan try to have us seek a sin driven life in whatever way possible,Jesus sets us free from having sin so constantly in our thoughts as well as the idea to think of it as something "good" once born again we start to see sin as"bad" but sin still remains.
It is possible to start over with a new slate without sin,inevitably we will sin in someway this does not mean the same as being a slave to sin,willfully sinning is quite a difference,it shows that you seek darkness over light,chaos over peace,satan over Jesus,because such a person is unashamed of their sinning delighting in it.

 

[stonesoffire]

I hear a violin playing cry me a river................nothing wrong with this thread.....and only time we fire back is when those who believe in salvation by grace through faith get accused of saying the following or pushing the following...

a. We can live anyway we want to because grace out bounds sin
b. We push and embrace sin and living in sin because grace out bounds sin
c. We can live and sin all we want because we are eternally saved and secure
d. We teach a do nothing gospel
e. We do not teach to work or bear fruit

etc...

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH..........CRYYYYYYYYYY MEEEE a RIVERRRRRRRRRR LAAA lALLLA llLALALALLALAL

lol You remind me of a Pastor I sat under for many years. He used the same phrases. Some didn't like it, but boy could he teach truth. And the mercy of God.

 

[stonesoffire]

Many Christians are being taught that if you have to purposely do something righteous and it doesn't just happen automatically that you are 'in the flesh' and not walking by the Spirit, and so you are trying to earn your own salvation. And they believe it.

What a joke.

Never heard or saw this teaching. Can you show the post where you found it?

 

[dcontroversal]

Shaming someone is not serving God that is pleasing satan.

It would shame me if it was me....

 

[dcontroversal]

Now back on track.....

The bible is clear....Any work, fruit, service that a person does is the direct result of the salvation and faith that one already possesses in Christ. NONE here have advocated a do nothing religion.....none here push a live as we please dogma, none here push a live like the "debil Bobby Buche" lifestyle......

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

It is faith and faith alone that saves.....and the bible teaches the following...

Man justified before God by FAITH <---Paul in Romans
Man's faith that justifies before God seen by MEN based upon our works <--James

There is no contradiction whatsoever at all....