Not By Works

[loveme1]

Hebrews 10

[FONT=&quot]26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



Does this mean there is sorer punishment for those that received the knowledge of truth and sinned wilfully? I think so.. so our heart must be set to not sin wilfully.. which affirms with the Lord’s Testament. I honestly don’t think anyone here would sin wilfully.. anyone that proposes any to sin so that GOD’s Grace abounds would be of evil mindset.. like the serpent beguiling.. I think we all here know that if GOD said don’t eat.. then we don’t eat no matter what the serpent says...


[/FONT]

 

[joefizz]

Well if if I was to Believe you then it opposes my Lord’s Truth.. and Joe I will not believe your theory but His Word.. because I believe He is the only way to the Father.. and if He states I need to have perfect works and be Righteous then I believe Him! Because Joe Faith and Doing His work perfects our Faith.. and all and absolute Glory to the Almighty and His Perfect Son always and forever... but I will not accept the idea that we don’t believe the Messiah’s Word above all else.

You sound as if you believe that God and Jesus aren't one and the same,I believe God's word the bible but am not so naive as to think somethings outright mean things they are not,especially when Jesus spoke in parables or was being figurative,instead of speaking plainly,for example when Jesus told his disciples to "beware of the leaven of the pharisees" they perceived that he was speaking about bread,but he was talking about the "works,doctrine,and mind set of the pharisees" for they would surely stand in their way to attempt to retort them teaching for Jesus because they couldn't accept "change" they set up false witnesses and tried to provoke Jesus many times,and he would often correct them,perfection for us is not possible though we may try with all our might,only Jesus as God in the flesh was perfect and did perfect works,now we assuredly should do right for him but we shouldn't delude ourselves to believe that we can be perfect like him on this earth,for once again if any but Jesus could have fulfilled the law becoming a perfect sacrifice then where is this person in history or for that matter even today,nowhere,because "as for God's way his way is perfect"(that way being Jesus) and only the truth(Jesus Christ)sets us free from the bonds of sin"
this means that Only "with Jesus" can one be saved,and only through him can perfect works be possible,not of ourselves but of him,for whom has not fallen short of the glory of God?
We are made perfect through Jesus we cannot make ourselves perfect nor do perfect works for we are not perfect,but he is so if he wills it then and only then can something "perfect" be done,if ye act of your own accord then your works are not perfect.

 

[Studyman]

I would never say to ignore the Lights instruction. What I am trying to say, and apparently not being successful at explaining, is that instruction comes from fellowshipping with the Lord. The Word given through the Spirit may not be exactly the Word given by the written word.

Comprende?

We don't struggle to live by laws, but by the resting in the righteousness imputed to us. Then being in Him...His salvation freely given, we live out of Him. Being one and moving by Spirit. We are spiritual beings if we are baptized into His body which is the baptism of Holy Spirit. Not just regeneration.

Comprende?

I am full aware of your preaching. I just don't believe the Holy Spirit gives you different instructions that it gives everybody else. And given Jesus said we live by Every Word of God, I would be suspect of a spirit who tells me to do something different than that very Word of God Jesus taught us to live by, instructs. I believe this is why we are instructed also in this same written Word of God to "test the spirits".

Comprende?

 

[loveme1]

You sound as if you believe that God and Jesus aren't one and the same,I believe God's word the bible but am not so naive as to think somethings outright mean things they are not,especially when Jesus spoke in parables or was being figurative,instead of speaking plainly,for example when Jesus told his disciples to "beware of the leaven of the pharisees" they perceived that he was speaking about bread,but he was talking about the "works,doctrine,and mind set of the pharisees" for they would surely stand in their way to attempt to retort them teaching for Jesus because they couldn't accept "change" they set up false witnesses and tried to provoke Jesus many times,and he would often correct them,perfection for us is not possible though we may try with all our might,only Jesus as God in the flesh was perfect and did perfect works,now we assuredly should do right for him but we shouldn't delude ourselves to believe that we can be perfect like him on this earth,for once again if any but Jesus could have fulfilled the law becoming a perfect sacrifice then where is this person in history or for that matter even today,nowhere,because "as for God's way his way is perfect"(that way being Jesus) and only the truth(Jesus Christ)sets us free from the bonds of sin"
this means that Only "with Jesus" can one be saved,and only through him can perfect works be possible,not of ourselves but of him,for whom has not fallen short of the glory of God?
We are made perfect through Jesus we cannot make ourselves perfect nor do perfect works for we are not perfect,but he is so if he wills it then and only then can something "perfect" be done,if ye act of your own accord then your works are not perfect.

I’m sure you will be commended for your speech by many Joe reap the false security and may one day you actually believe Christ’s Word.

If Christ said be perfect then I believe Him.. do I make myself perfect? No.. here it is:

Hebrews 5


7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.


as for the start of your post: Father and Son are One.

 

[joefizz]

Hebrews 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



Does this mean there is sorer punishment for those that received the knowledge of truth and sinned wilfully? I think so.. so our heart must be set to not sin wilfully.. which affirms with the Lord’s Testament. I honestly don’t think anyone here would sin wilfully.. anyone that proposes any to sin so that GOD’s Grace abounds would be of evil mindset.. like the serpent beguiling.. I think we all here know that if GOD said don’t eat.. then we don’t eat no matter what the serpent says...

You are missing the point,we of our own will cannot keep from sin entirely therefore we are not perfect and yes we are not to willingly sin but we can only do so much we must have accepted Jesus's sacrifice for us otherwise we shall fall into iniquity abundantly,it is Jesus's grace that saves not our own for we have not grace of ourselves,we shall assuredly do works for Jesus but this is not to be interpreted that we are perfect otherwise we are boasting that we are equal to God/Jesus,and therefore being against him for if we will take pride in our works and not give glory to God/Jesus then why did Jesus come to "save us from sin" if we can do so ourselves?
It can't be done therefore we don't go looking at our works for "if a man tilleth the ground and look back he is not fit for the kingdom of heaven" as in if we proclaim that our works are any comparison to God by saying we are to be perfect we go against Jesus.

 

[BillG]

No wonder if you insist on taking a suitable verse here and there to propose a theory.

Christ gives us work and nothing above changes that whatsoever.

All seem to agree by Grace we are Saved through Faith in Christ unto good works.

Yep that is true.
We must be busy going about the will of the Father.

To me Paul was saying that cannot earn salvation by good works. Coming against the Pharisee’s view that works is what God sees. But Paul is saying we are saved in Jesus and justified as a result.

James says that if you have genuine faith then that genuine saving faith will produce good works.

And I think Paul reconciles the two so that there is no confusion.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

To me part of the problem today is leading people to recant the sinners prayer and leaving it at that.

The church really needs to teach what it means to be in Jesus.

Its not just saying the prayer and sitting back and living ones life as before conversion.
But also not to go to the other extreme and tell them now they must be perfect in everything.

 

[PJW]

I would ask you the same question as to PJ. Why then was there the need for Jesus to pour His blood upon the mercy seat in the heavenly sanctuary?
You'll have to provide the scrip' that mentions this, as I am unaware of such an act by Christ Jesus.

And why would we need a sprinkling of blood on our conscience as we walk with Him in light?

Again, please provide the scrip' that mentions a need for this (continual) sprinkling.

Was purging a one time thing? Or continual? Think of branches and pruning before you answer.

It should be a one time thing, but in the days of the temple, after it was repeatedly defiled, it needed sanctifying.
We can be sanctified once and remain undefiled, thanks be to God and His protection and provision.
Those that venture out into sin again after an"alleged" cleansing, are posers who never committed themselves to service to one God only.

As for branches/pruning, don't you clear a field before planting a crop?
If a weed or tare should pop up among the "crop", we know it wasn't planted by the "Farmer", and will be destroyed.
Pruning good fruit, however, is the point of the whole planting experience.
I hope I'm not confusing "pruning" with "reaping".

 

[joefizz]

I’m sure you will be commended for your speech by many Joe reap the false security and may one day you actually believe Christ’s Word.

If Christ said be perfect then I believe Him.. do I make myself perfect? No.. here it is:

Hebrews 5


7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.


as for the start of your post: Father and Son are One.

I seek not anything for myself only to glorify God by speaking in spirit of his word so that one might understand just where all men,women,and children stand concerning perfection,I am not so foolish to boast of what I do that Jesus leads me to do for at such times I do not of myself but of him for I am but a servant not a master,I am humble in that I sin,I seek to do right for him but know this is only possible through him not on my own.

 

[BillG]

Jesus taught us how to pray.
The Lord’s Prayer.

I just want to ask this question.

Part of his prayer was

Luke 11:4
4 And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.

If he anticipated that we would never sin why would he tell us to ask God to forgive us of our sins? (note here this question is not to start a discussion on forgiving in order to be forgiven)

Just another question as well.

It has been suggested that God will not listen to a person who sins.

So why would tell us to ask for forgiveness?

 

[PJW]

Its called "Vainglory" It means the man gets all the glory, where's the humility. Sinless perfectionism is a false gospel = a false christ. But what does that matter anyway right.

"But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble." James4:6

The "humility" is manifested by our submission to God.
Where is the "humility" of those who serve the "flesh"?

 

[BillG]

Not wishing to be semantic here

I just don't believe the Holy Spirit gives you different instructions that it gives everybody else.

The Holy Spirit is not an IT it but a HE

 

[joefizz]

Yep that is true.
We must be busy going about the will of the Father.

To me Paul was saying that cannot earn salvation by good works. Coming against the Pharisee’s view that works is what God sees. But Paul is saying we are saved in Jesus and justified as a result.

James says that if you have genuine faith then that genuine saving faith will produce good works.

And I think Paul reconciles the two so that there is no confusion.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

To me part of the problem today is leading people to recant the sinners prayer and leaving it at that.

The church really needs to teach what it means to be in Jesus.

Its not just saying the prayer and sitting back and living ones life as before conversion.
But also not to go to the other extreme and tell them now they must be perfect in everything.

Indeed you don't simply ask for forgiveness out loud and then think that's all, you must humble yourself knowing you are a sinner and that you need God and accept Jesus's sacrifice for your sin,and that it is not of yourself that salvation is possible but through him,anyone can just chant a prayer but if your heart isn't in that prayer then it is of no benefit to anyone and if you don't trust in Jesus and proclaim you are perfect therefore not needing him supposedly to even keep from then that's certainly a confounded point of view to take.

 

[PJW]

You have COMPLETELY dodged answering any of my questions.
I'll try one more time.
1. Have you committed ANY of the sins I listed in the last post? IE..Driving over the speed limit, anger, fear, worry, impure thoughts, etc... ​HAVE YOU SINNED SINCE BEING SAVED? COMMITTING ANY OFFENSE?

No. I have not committed any sins since my conversion.
I was "converted" from a sinner to a non-sinner.

2. Paul accused Peter of the sin of hypocrisy. Did Paul make a false accusation (sin), or did Peter sin by being a hypocrite? Either way, are Peter and Paul in Christ even though one of them sinned?

I don't see the words "sin" or "hypocrisy" mentioned in Gal 2.
Peter's "blame" stemmed from his giving credence to continued submission to parts of the law that were no longer in effect.
Thousands of other Jews were still using the law in Jerusalem: do you think they were all sinners?

3. Jesus tells Peter to forgive his BROTHER EVERY time he sins. If a BROTHER NEVER sins, why does Peter, or Jesus, need to forgive them?

If the sign says, "Don't use hair dryer in the bathtub", do you suppose everyone is doing so?
To infer that all Peter's "brothers" commit sin is erroneous thinking.
If a supposed brother manifests his service to sin, our forgiveness of that man will be his first step into belief, as the sin itself showed he wasn't submitted to God in the first place.

Your pride has been noted. The question is can YOU note it?

My pride in in God, and His Son Christ Jesus, who has saved me from service to the destroyer of men.

 

[PJW]

THIS is a great point. These sinless perfection heretics try to perfect themselves IN THE FLESH. As the verse notes, our flesh, which is corrupt, will NOT inherit the Kingdom.

This is why we must obey the Gospel, and trust that the Holy Spirit will work in our lives to reveal, and remove the dross in our hearts as HE purifies us.

Never heard of rebirth?
The skin is His now, as the old man was crucified and buried with Jesus. (Rom 6:3-6)
The next verse tells us what the proof of that is..."For he that is dead is freed from sin?.
That which is born of God cannot bring forth evil fruit.

 

[BillG]

[/B]No. I have not committed any sins since my conversion.
I was "converted" from a sinner to a non-sinner.


I don't see the words "sin" or "hypocrisy" mentioned in Gal 2.
Peter's "blame" stemmed from his giving credence to continued submission to parts of the law that were no longer in effect.
Thousands of other Jews were still using the law in Jerusalem: do you think they were all sinners?


If the sign says, "Don't use hair dryer in the bathtub", do you suppose everyone is doing so?
To infer that all Peter's "brothers" commit sin is erroneous thinking.
If a supposed brother manifests his service to sin, our forgiveness of that man will be his first step into belief, as the sin itself showed he wasn't submitted to God in the first place.


My pride in in God, and His Son Christ Jesus, who has saved me from service to the destroyer of men.

You genuinely beleive that you don’t sin since your conversion don’t you?
Does everyone in the church you go feel and say the same?

If that’s the case then what you are saying in effect when you placed your faith in Jesus as follows

Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Then every life experience before conversion that was sinful or led you to sin (ie unfogivenss, worrying etc) you just stopped.

So the church you go and it’s members do not sin at all?

 

[VCO]

Let me just point out, the argument has been going on for 2073 pages over if the Scriptures are true when they state the following:

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Are we all just misunderstanding Paul?

No, there are quite a few of us here who stand for the TRUTH, of Salvation is by GRACE through Faith and not by works, therefore only because of HIS MERCY do we not pay the price for our ongoing sin nature. Those who WANT TO BELIEVE THEY ARE SINLESS are proving to all present, that they have been thoroughly brain washed by False Prophets, and thereby are unreceptive to the TRUTH.

Yes we were warned that in the Last Days there would be many False Prophets, who would no longer endure sound doctrines, and would continue to Decieve and Being Decieved. It is not a pleasant thing to actually see happening, however praise the LORD, it is at a sign that we are close to going Home to be with our LORD.

 

[PJW]

First things being first, we gather from Scripture these things concerning this person and his claims:
He is deceiving himself, the truth is not in him, he has made God a liar, and his Word is not in him. - 1 John 1-8-10
These things are true no matter what PJW says, and his defiance of this indictment is even further sin; he is calling God a liar.

It seems you have missed the fact that John is writing of two very different walks.
One in the light, and the other in the darkness.
Those walking in the light, which verse 5 says is God, have had all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
They can say they have no sin.
Those who say they have fellowship with God, but walk in darkness, cannot say they have no sin...because they still sin!
Proverbs 4:19 tells us what ..."[FONT=&quot]The way of the wicked is as darkness".[/FONT]

Instead of jumping to other texts,...
From Biblical Illustrator:
I. The apostle declares that the imagination of our own sinlessness is an inward lie. To believe or to deny the possibility of Christian “perfection” is to leave the motives of the spiritual life almost wholly unchanged, as long as each man believes (and who on any side doubts this?) that it is the unceasing duty of each to be as perfect as he can, and, in the holy ambition of yet completer conquest, to “think nothing gained while aught remains to gain.”
Were a perfect man to exist, he himself would be the last to know it; for the highest stage of advancement is the lowest descent in humility. As long as this humility is necessary to the fulness of the Christian character, it would seem that it is of the essence of the constant growth in grace to see itself lowlier as God exalts it higher.
Besides this operation of humility, it must be remembered that the spiritual life involves a progressively increasing knowledge of God. Now, though the spirit of man assuredly must brighten in purity as thus in faith and love it approaches the great Source of all holiness, it must also appreciate far more accurately the force of the contrast between itself and its mighty model; and thus, as it becomes relatively more perfect, it may be said to feel itself absolutely less so.

It's odd that you mention not using other texts, then use another text.

 

[PJW]

Do you know what walking in the light is?

Walking in the light is walking in God. (1 John 1:5)

There is no sin in God.

 

[BillG]

By Ray Pritchard on Oct 23, 2017 12:13 am
If I show up at the gates of heaven talking about how good I’ve been, I’m in real trouble. First of all, I haven’t been all that good. Too many sins come crowding into my memory, and those are only the ones I can remember. I testify that I am a sinner through and through; and left to myself, I don’t have a chance of going to heaven.
My only hope of heaven is to cast myself completely on the Lord Jesus Christ who loved me and died for me. He is my only hope. If he can’t take me to heaven, I’m not going to go there. But I’m not worried. I’m trusting in Jesus to meet me at the gate and usher me into heaven. As the song says, “I need no other argument, I need no other plea. It is enough that Jesus died, and that he died for me.”

 

[PJW]

1 John 1:8-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] If we say, “We have no sin,” we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If we say, “We don’t have any sin,” we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
As I told you before, CONFESS is in the Greek Present tense which implies it is an ongoing, continuous lifestyle of doing that verb.
1 John 1:7 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
SURPRISE, the word CLEANES is ALSO in the Greek Present tense implies that it is something that continues on and on throughout your whole life. WHICH MEANS THE SIN NATURE (the propensity to sin) IS STILL IN YOU, AND WILL STICK IT'S UGLY HEAD UP PERIODICALLY THROUGHOUT YOU WHOLE LIFE. THAT means it is entirely possible to sin while walking in the light.
GET to studying what all GOD considers sin,
AND
Repent sinner.

If I confess "my" sins, and He cleanses me of all unrighteousness...why can't I say I have no sin?
You argue against yourself.