Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

It's not me. but scripture that says it.
John 9:31..."Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."
1 Peter 3:12...For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil."
Job 8:20..."Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:"

We aren't sinners. Our sin nature has been put to death, and we have a new heart, new nature. Now we are the Sons of God.

A new creation man/woman. The righteousness of God in Christ Jesus is ours so we are the righteous Ones! Being formed as we hear and see Him.

 

[stonesoffire]

Why would a just God chasten the innocent?

Isnt chastening by the Word through Holy Spirit?

 

[PJW]

Like said, start studying what all GOD considers sin and abandon most of what you THINK you know. You just described one type of sin, when there are multiple types sin. I just gave you a sizeable list of SINS OF OMISSION. NONE OF WHICH REQUIRE TEMPTATION. Come on Sinner, start studying and Confessing, the LORD is CALLING YOU.
How about starting with this one:
Proverbs 6:16-19 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
I will be praying for you, in fact I just did.

What use is there in confessing?
I would still be a sinner...according to you.
Thank God for making the way to kill the old man and be reborn Of Godly seed that cannot bring forth evil fruit.
As for what I think is sin...John summed it up best in 1 John 5:17..."[FONT=&quot]All unrighteousness is sin:"[/FONT]

 

[PJW]

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

AMEN, and thank you God almighty!

 

[PJW]

We aren't sinners. Our sin nature has been put to death, and we have a new heart, new nature. Now we are the Sons of God.
A new creation man/woman. The righteousness of God in Christ Jesus is ours so we are the righteous Ones!

Being formed as we hear and see Him.

Perhaps better stated as "growing in grace and knowledge after our rebirth".

 

[stonesoffire]

You really do not understand that the works righteousness you preach is a false GOSPEL that CANNOT SAVE.

I will KEEP BELIEVING THAT JESUS DID IT ALL, and TOTALLY TRUSTING THAT HE WILL KEEP ME SAVED, AND CONTINUE TO MOLD ME INTO PERFECTLY FINISHED VESSEL HE CHOOSES ME TO BE.

SAVED, SURE OF IT, and I AM ALREADY A CITIZEN OF HEAVEN, and NONE OF IT CAN BE LOST.


Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.


MY LORD GOD DOES IT ALL!

[video=youtube;06h3J5FYn-I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06h3J5FYn-I[/video]

Holy Spirit told me to throw away my measuring stick. Years ago.

 

[PJW]

Isnt chastening by the Word through Holy Spirit?

It can be.
But it can also be something like...after trying to convince coworkers that obedience to God is possible, then hitting your head on something and cussing: your credibility is shattered and must be rebuilt.
That is chastening.

 

[stonesoffire]

OK so if it happens the moment one believes, but a human is still in the fleash for how ever many years they are alive or until His return, what happens when that person does sin? I mean you and I believe yet I at times still sin, since you believe do you still sin? If the spirit is reborn already then what is the function/consequence when one does sin in their flesh?

How can a believer still be in the flesh when God circumcises it from us. In Christ. That is our position.

 

[VCO]

You can tell what type of tree you have by the fruit.
Were my "fruit" sin, you could condemn me.
The "works", (not to be confused with the works of the law), are the proof of the truth of God's word.


Do you really think He wants you to defend sin?


You have misapplied this scripture to an entirely different subject.

><>t<><

WOW, what Church do you go to, you do not even know what SPIRITUAL FRUIT IS?

Galatians 5:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


HERE IS THE LIST OF BAD FRUIT AND THE LIST OF GOOD FRUIT.
The Bad Fruit is in RED, and the GOOD FRUIT is in PURPLE.


Galatians 5:18-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry {which is greed}, sorcery {can be abuse of DRUGS, the word is "pharmakeia", guess what the sorcerer's magic potions were} , hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.


I understand FRUIT takes time to develop, and to discern FRUIT across the internet is very difficult at best, because it requires us to be watching a persons lifestyle for awhile to determine what type of FRUIT that lifestyle is producing. JUDGING false DOCTRINE across the internet, however is fairly easy. I did however underline the bad fruit, that MAY BE your stumbling blocks, and yes they are all sins.


No I did not misapply that verse:

Philippians 1:6 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Let me paraphrase it for you. [ I am CONFIDENT of this very thing, HE who began eternal life and salvation in your human spirit, will continue to sanctify your body until it is perfect in that resurrected glorified body HE will give you at the resurrection, the day of Jesus Christ.]


Jesus Christ does it all.

 

[joefizz]

Would that be the "truth" Jesus said could free you from service to sin? (John 8:32-34)

one could say that, I'm more of meaning that doubt leads to trouble doubt and confusion are two of the biggest tools of satan,because if you become uncertain about God's word then he'll try to lead you to doubt God,and offer a false doctrine in place of God's word,causing confusion,so try to focus more on what is true rather than what might not be true because we are to stand upon the word of God as in that we though we may not understand every word or passage,we can however establish things that are true to stand firm with so that when satan comes after us we can fend him off with faith and truth,being ready with scripture to remind us who we serve when satan tries to tempt or confound our minds I guess to put things more plainly trust in the word of God "before" you know every word is true mentally,because while a person is what if-ing things satan may be leading you unwittingly into a trap of some kind in an attempt to diminish your faith,so yes Jesus is truth so believe upon him and continue to search out scriptures.

 

[stonesoffire]

AMEN, and thank you God almighty!

I think our understanding on this scripture may be different.

This is positional truth. And I believe this proves the security of the believer. It's Hebrews 10:4, didn't come up with the post.

This truth is from the finished work of Jesus. We are perfected forever by one sacrifice. All sin has been purged from man. Yet, men must believe and receive for the benefit of salvation.

In Gods eyes, we are perfect because we are in His perfect Son.

But, it's now the work of Holy Spirit in our life to produce the perfect in us. We cannot do it ourselves. Our works to keep salvation are of this world which is under the darkness.

We need something greater than self. We have that in our baptism of Holy Spirit.

We dont look at self, for the Word says looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. And we search scripture to see Jesus, for when we see Him, we become like Him. Look for revelation of Jesus rather than what one must do, for the latter is earthly, the former is heavenly.

Laws then take a back seat to the likeness or the image of God being formed in us.

 

[stonesoffire]

Perhaps better stated as "growing in grace and knowledge after our rebirth".

No, I will stick with the new creation man. Then growing in grace and the knowledge of God.

 

[PJW]

><>t<><
Galatians 5:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Do you know what it is I wait for, what my hope of righteousness is?
It is the return of Christ.

HERE IS THE LIST OF BAD FRUIT AND THE LIST OF GOOD FRUIT.

Thanks.
Do you know whose children bring forth evil fruit?

I understand FRUIT takes time to develop, and to discern FRUIT across the internet is very difficult at best, because it requires us to be watching a persons lifestyle for awhile to determine what type of FRUIT that lifestyle is producing. JUDGING false DOCTRINE across the internet, however is fairly easy. I did however underline the bad fruit, that MAY BE your stumbling blocks, and yes they are all sins.

Fig trees cannot bear grapes.
That which is born of God will nit bring forth the works of the devil.

No I did not misapply that verse:
Philippians 1:6 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Let me paraphrase it for you. [ I am CONFIDENT of this very thing, HE who began eternal life and salvation in your human spirit, will continue to sanctify your body until it is perfect in that resurrected glorified body HE will give you at the resurrection, the day of Jesus Christ.]

It is part of the reason you will never be sanctified.
Your version of the bile is leading you down the path to hell.
We are reborn holy, consecrated, set apart, and atoned for.
That is the definition of sanctified.
I can grow in grace and knowledge, but I will never be MORE holy.
Your version of the bible has instituted never being sanctified.
It is always something in the future.
If I am wrong, you must know five or six people in your "church" who have "become" sanctifiedalready, right?
That sounds a lot like you are earning it by your works!

 

[PJW]

one could say that, I'm more of meaning that doubt leads to trouble doubt and confusion are two of the biggest tools of satan,because if you become uncertain about God's word then he'll try to lead you to doubt God,and offer a false doctrine in place of God's word,causing confusion,so try to focus more on what is true rather than what might not be true because we are to stand upon the word of God as in that we though we may not understand every word or passage,we can however establish things that are true to stand firm with so that when satan comes after us we can fend him off with faith and truth,being ready with scripture to remind us who we serve when satan tries to tempt or confound our minds I guess to put things more plainly trust in the word of God "before" you know every word is true mentally,because while a person is what if-ing things satan may be leading you unwittingly into a trap of some kind in an attempt to diminish your faith,so yes Jesus is truth so believe upon him and continue to search out scriptures.

That might be a record for the world's longest sentence!
One thing I know is true is that Jesus was the "truth" that freed me from service to sin.

 

[PJW]

I think our understanding on this scripture may be different.

This is positional truth. And I believe this proves the security of the believer. It's Hebrews 10:4, didn't come up with the post.

This truth is from the finished work of Jesus. We are perfected forever by one sacrifice. All sin has been purged from man. Yet, men must believe and receive for the benefit of salvation.

In Gods eyes, we are perfect because we are in His perfect Son.

But, it's now the work of Holy Spirit in our life to produce the perfect in us. We cannot do it ourselves. Our works to keep salvation are of this world which is under the darkness.

We need something greater than self. We have that in our baptism of Holy Spirit.

We dont look at self, for the Word says looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. And we search scripture to see Jesus, for when we see Him, we become like Him. Look for revelation of Jesus rather than what one must do, for the latter is earthly, the former is heavenly.

Laws then take a back seat to the likeness or the image of God being formed in us.

Oh, oh..."positional" is a code word the unbelievers use to legitimize their ongoing sin.

Our rebirth produces the perfect man, a man born of Godly seed that cannot bring forth evil fruit.
A real "turn from sin" is first, however, as God doesn't give gifts to the unsanctified.

 

[PJW]

No, I will stick with the new creation man. Then growing in grace and the knowledge of God.

Don't you agree that rebirth creates that 'new creation man"?

 

[loveme1]

Wrong, how about you try getting your theology to square with Schripture:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] If anyone builds on that foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] each one’s work will become obvious, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one’s work.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If anyone’s work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If anyone’s work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.


Surprise, your theory that SALVATION IS A REWARD FOR WORKS DONE WHILE WALKING BY FAITH, is utterly FALSE TEACHING, flee from it.

He really MEANT IT LITERALLY when HE inspired Paul to write.


Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not from works, so that no one can boast.

Let us see:

Revelation 2

[FONT=&quot]4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


These folks are believers being warned... and anyone who claims to believe should take heed to all warnings.. may it provoke one to strengthen what remains or return to their First love..


1 Corinthians 3


[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.[/FONT]



Have a read of Corinthians again.. stop looking for get out of jail clauses and start believing unto the saving of your soul so GOD can give increase while you abide in your mortal vessel.

Let us buy some refined gold from the Lord.. because gold will remain..

 

[PeterJens]

What is behind all sin? Is it not lust? lusting for what we are told we can't have.

Where does lust originate? Lets look at our armor.

Where is righteousness found in our armor?

Loins girded about with righteousness. Coveting is a grave sin. Men murder with hate and will take what is theirs just because of lust.

Jesus pinned this weakness with His sword to the earth realm. That we might live out of heavenly realms free!

Keep your breastplate of truth on.

This is an interesting idea. Are lusts behind all sin?
My impression is lusts take control when love is not central in the heart, because there is nothing
that brings order and balance so desires become the focus. Raw desires are destructive and
anarchistic, changing relationships and consequences beyond boundaries or sense.

Paul said it that because people did not worship God He gave them over to their passions. This
does make sense. We have a basic drive in life, upon which things form a heirarchy. Without this
it all goes out of control, because there is no structure to put things into their appropriate place.

You realise this within families that have good consistent relationships built on predictability and
relationship foundations.

So I would conclude lusts are not the driver, but the absence of the presence of the Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

I think our understanding on this scripture may be different.

This is positional truth. And I believe this proves the security of the believer. It's Hebrews 10:4, didn't come up with the post.

This truth is from the finished work of Jesus. We are perfected forever by one sacrifice. All sin has been purged from man. Yet, men must believe and receive for the benefit of salvation.

In Gods eyes, we are perfect because we are in His perfect Son.

But, it's now the work of Holy Spirit in our life to produce the perfect in us. We cannot do it ourselves. Our works to keep salvation are of this world which is under the darkness.

We need something greater than self. We have that in our baptism of Holy Spirit.

We dont look at self, for the Word says looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. And we search scripture to see Jesus, for when we see Him, we become like Him. Look for revelation of Jesus rather than what one must do, for the latter is earthly, the former is heavenly.

Laws then take a back seat to the likeness or the image of God being formed in us.

This is all true, except the power of actually purging sin is missing.
If you go into some families, they all hate each other but have to meet up a few times a year.
They are not sure why, but meeting up is one of the few things that bind them together.

This is not the Kingdom of heaven. This is not Gods eternal vision of a people bought with a
price. This is just hypocracy and unresolved sin and anger.

Gods Kingdom is the Kingdom of the heart and love and service one to another.
It is about transformation into His likeness. It is walking in a holy, righteous way.

 

[PeterJens]

Why would a just God chasten the innocent?

If one holds we are all sinners lost in sin, and God only sees us as perfect because He sees
Christ, one is believing God is blind.

Why would God be blind? If you are sitting in a car and it is about to crash unless you apply
the brakes, is it better to teach people to apply the brakes or tell them they will die but be
safe, and that is all that matters, that they feel better about dying?

The truth is ex-legalists who failed to grasp what love is, have created their own God is blind
faith.

They say, “The Lord does not see; the God of Jacob takes no notice.”
Psalm 94:7

The problem with a faith I am better than you, when you discover it is all fake, and you actually
hated the people you were with, and all the hurts you received. There was no forgiveness from the
heart or seeing things as they really are.

Pride of life. When people come and show their good deeds and way of life as if this justifies them
attacking this and rejecting them because of it makes sense if this is why they come. It shakes them
up to the point where they have to change their position and stop admitting being who they are does
not make them saved or safe.

The problem is when true believers come who just love the Lord and their life is the fruit of this relationship.
Pushing them and condemning them does not work.

It demonstrates to me how many born into the church have never caught the vision of Christ and His love.
This is not an optional extra, it is the gospel.