Not By Works
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Rude awakenings.
Until you look at an idea, you do not know whether it is true or false.
When you are in the valleys you cannot see from the high peaks.
A lot of ideas you need to dwell in and let its implications work through.
If ones view is always to discount oneself in self condemnation, no wonder
the idea of being Holy is alien. God knew this was our nature to instituted the
temple and sacrifices to get the point across. Our feelings always tell us things
are ok and have not changed, even if they have. This works for sinful behaviour
as well as cleansing.
Jesus had forgiven people but they did not feel any different. It is because
forgiveness is given by the forgiven party. If you understand the breadth of the
forgiveness ones heart will respond, but that is up to the receiver to put effort in
to see this.
So when people awaken it will become obvious.
Until you look at an idea, you do not know whether it is true or false.
When you are in the valleys you cannot see from the high peaks.
A lot of ideas you need to dwell in and let its implications work through.
If ones view is always to discount oneself in self condemnation, no wonder
the idea of being Holy is alien. God knew this was our nature to instituted the
temple and sacrifices to get the point across. Our feelings always tell us things
are ok and have not changed, even if they have. This works for sinful behaviour
as well as cleansing.
Jesus had forgiven people but they did not feel any different. It is because
forgiveness is given by the forgiven party. If you understand the breadth of the
forgiveness ones heart will respond, but that is up to the receiver to put effort in
to see this.
So when people awaken it will become obvious.
The word keep as in keeping His laws is not "do".
Keep:
~G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.
Total KJV occurrences: 75
Can you see the difference Hizikyah?
Israel had to "do". Impossible to do for all, so they sacrificed innocence as an exchange for judgement of sin. The sacrifices of the animals were those under the age of three because then there is still not the effects of the fall upon their nature.
Our sacrifice is once in Jesus. As we walk with Him in light...communion....the blood cleanses our conscience and we are a cleansed soul. But, holiness is yet of Spirit. It's like a continual sprinkling of blood on and in us.
A greater sacrifice that results in a new nature of a new genesis. The recreated world. And we are back to the garden where we are taken care of. All needs met. No sweat from working. Freedom.
Keeping is to love to commune with the Lord and He tells us what to say and do in the anointing.
One moment of being empowered to speak out of the anointing will cause a thirst for more.
I wish you all experienced just one moment. Am sure there are many who have. And will agree there is nothing like the anointing that destroys the yoke of bondage.
This is what John experienced in Revelations when he said I was in the Spirit on the Lords day.
Keep:
~G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.
Total KJV occurrences: 75
Can you see the difference Hizikyah?
Israel had to "do". Impossible to do for all, so they sacrificed innocence as an exchange for judgement of sin. The sacrifices of the animals were those under the age of three because then there is still not the effects of the fall upon their nature.
Our sacrifice is once in Jesus. As we walk with Him in light...communion....the blood cleanses our conscience and we are a cleansed soul. But, holiness is yet of Spirit. It's like a continual sprinkling of blood on and in us.
A greater sacrifice that results in a new nature of a new genesis. The recreated world. And we are back to the garden where we are taken care of. All needs met. No sweat from working. Freedom.
Keeping is to love to commune with the Lord and He tells us what to say and do in the anointing.
One moment of being empowered to speak out of the anointing will cause a thirst for more.
I wish you all experienced just one moment. Am sure there are many who have. And will agree there is nothing like the anointing that destroys the yoke of bondage.
This is what John experienced in Revelations when he said I was in the Spirit on the Lords day.
John and Jesus rebuked them many times.
Matthew 3:1-12, “1 And in those days Yoḥanan the Immerser (John the baptist) came proclaiming in the wilderness of Yehuḏah,2, "and saying, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has come near! 3, "For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Yeshayahu, saying, “A voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of יהוה, make His paths straight. 4, "And Yoḥanan had a garment of camel’s hair, and a leather girdle around his waist. And his food was locusts and wild honey. 5, "Then Yerushalayim, and all Yehuḏah, and all the country around the Yardĕn went out to him, 6, "and they were immersed by him in the Yardĕn, confessing their sins. 7, "And seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his immersion, he said to them, “Brood of adders! Who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8, "“Bear, therefore, fruits worthy of repentance,9, "and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Aḇraham as father.’a For I say to you that Elohim is able to raise up childrenb to Aḇraham from these stones.10, "“And the axe is already laid to the root of the trees. Every tree, then, which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11, "“I indeed immerse you in water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to bear. He shall immerse you in the Set-apart Spirit and fire. 12, "“His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He shall thoroughly cleanse His threshing-floor, and gather His wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff He shall burn with unquenchable fire.”
Matthew 12:34, “Brood of adders! How are you able to speak what is good – being wicked? For the mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart.”
Matthew 3:1-12, “1 And in those days Yoḥanan the Immerser (John the baptist) came proclaiming in the wilderness of Yehuḏah,2, "and saying, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has come near! 3, "For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Yeshayahu, saying, “A voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of יהוה, make His paths straight. 4, "And Yoḥanan had a garment of camel’s hair, and a leather girdle around his waist. And his food was locusts and wild honey. 5, "Then Yerushalayim, and all Yehuḏah, and all the country around the Yardĕn went out to him, 6, "and they were immersed by him in the Yardĕn, confessing their sins. 7, "And seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his immersion, he said to them, “Brood of adders! Who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8, "“Bear, therefore, fruits worthy of repentance,9, "and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Aḇraham as father.’a For I say to you that Elohim is able to raise up childrenb to Aḇraham from these stones.10, "“And the axe is already laid to the root of the trees. Every tree, then, which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11, "“I indeed immerse you in water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to bear. He shall immerse you in the Set-apart Spirit and fire. 12, "“His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He shall thoroughly cleanse His threshing-floor, and gather His wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff He shall burn with unquenchable fire.”
Matthew 12:34, “Brood of adders! How are you able to speak what is good – being wicked? For the mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart.”
Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them; And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"
Mat 23:23, "“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you tithe the mint and the anise and the cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the Torah: the right-ruling and the compassion and the belief. These need to have been done, without neglecting the others.”
Mat 23:23, "“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you tithe the mint and the anise and the cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the Torah: the right-ruling and the compassion and the belief. These need to have been done, without neglecting the others.”
Ok, on this I agree. 
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 29:1-2, "Ascribe to YHWH, O you mighty, ascribe to YHWH glory and strength. Ascribe to YHWH the glory due His Name! Worship Him in the beauty of holiness."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 100:1-5, "Make a joyful shout to YHWH, all you lands. Serve YHWH with gladness! Come before His presence with singing! Know that YHWH is our Father! It is He Who made us, and not we ourselves. We are His people, and the sheep of His pasture. Enter into His gates with thanksgiving, and into His courts with praise. Be thankful to Him, and bless His Name! For YHWH is righteous, His mercy is everlasting, and His truth endures throughout all generations!"[/FONT]
This is not about you ,me, or anyone on this forum in my view. It's about knowing what the Bible's teaches. And to do that, we must use "Every Word of God", not just the few verses that can be used to further some church doctrine.
Matt. 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
So BG, we are told to:
2 Tim. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
So this means I, ME, I am supposed to study. It doesn't mean am to pick and choose someone else to study for me. Like the Pope, or Benny Hinn, or Oral Roberts. I am supposed to study, and I am supposed to use EVERY WORD of God in that study.
For instance, Paul said:
Rom. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
And He said.
1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
And he said:
Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
So these are seemingly directly opposite instructions. What "MANY" people do is just pick the one that more closely supports their current lifestyle, and ignore the other. To a Jewish believer, the Rom. 2, might fit the traditions and doctrines of his church than the Rom. 3 scripture. To the AOG or Baptist or "many" others, the Rom. 3 scripture is used, and the others ignored.
But this isn't the way we are told to study, and it is in direct contradiction to Jesus and His instruction to consider Every Word.
So this is what I did. I separated myself from ALL Mainstream teachings, at least as much as possible in America today. And for 20 years I studied. Of course this means nothing to you as you don't know me from Adam, and it really means nothing anyway, lots of people study. It is just a factual account of what I did, nothing more.
What I found out is that these scriptures do not contradict each other at all. In Rom. 3 and Gal. 3 Paul is speaking of the Levitical Priesthood, ceremonial, sacrificial "works or Deeds of the Law" for remission of sin, contained in the "Oracles" of God. Paul tells us this Levitical Priesthood was "ADDED" because of transgression of the Laws Abraham was blessed for obeying. (Gen. 26:5) They were a "Shadow" of Christ's sacrifice and were to be in force "Until the Seed should come". (Gal. 3:19)
So it is wrong to build a doctrine around one scripture, while rejecting others. And this also makes it almost impossible to understand God's instruction if a person cherry picks scripture, or if a person CHOOSES to place more value on one scripture that others.
So instead of choosing scripture that supports some doctrine or tradition of men, and erasing from my mind any scripture that brings these doctrines and traditions into question, I simply let the Bible create my doctrine. This was easier for me because I had already separated myself from a Mainstream Church that EVERYBODY knows "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own doctrines and Traditions".
And even though I know, from study, that "most" will choose church tradition over God's Word, I came on this forum anyway and am sharing what I have been shown with you.
We are told by "many" that Paul says we can do "NOTHING" in respect to our salvation. And they use a few scriptures including this one as support of that teaching.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
But the same people reject and ignore the same words of the same Paul when he said the following.
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Which confirms my belief that the Gospel of Christ is the Old Testament as Paul said in Romans 1, which I was accused of lying about.
In closing, keep in mind that it was Jesus, not me, who said;
Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, (Christians) saying, I am Christ;(Saying Jesus is truly the Son of God) and shall deceive many.
It is good that you are "Testing the Spirits".
Matt. 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
So BG, we are told to:
2 Tim. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
So this means I, ME, I am supposed to study. It doesn't mean am to pick and choose someone else to study for me. Like the Pope, or Benny Hinn, or Oral Roberts. I am supposed to study, and I am supposed to use EVERY WORD of God in that study.
For instance, Paul said:
Rom. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
And He said.
1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
And he said:
Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
So these are seemingly directly opposite instructions. What "MANY" people do is just pick the one that more closely supports their current lifestyle, and ignore the other. To a Jewish believer, the Rom. 2, might fit the traditions and doctrines of his church than the Rom. 3 scripture. To the AOG or Baptist or "many" others, the Rom. 3 scripture is used, and the others ignored.
But this isn't the way we are told to study, and it is in direct contradiction to Jesus and His instruction to consider Every Word.
So this is what I did. I separated myself from ALL Mainstream teachings, at least as much as possible in America today. And for 20 years I studied. Of course this means nothing to you as you don't know me from Adam, and it really means nothing anyway, lots of people study. It is just a factual account of what I did, nothing more.
What I found out is that these scriptures do not contradict each other at all. In Rom. 3 and Gal. 3 Paul is speaking of the Levitical Priesthood, ceremonial, sacrificial "works or Deeds of the Law" for remission of sin, contained in the "Oracles" of God. Paul tells us this Levitical Priesthood was "ADDED" because of transgression of the Laws Abraham was blessed for obeying. (Gen. 26:5) They were a "Shadow" of Christ's sacrifice and were to be in force "Until the Seed should come". (Gal. 3:19)
So it is wrong to build a doctrine around one scripture, while rejecting others. And this also makes it almost impossible to understand God's instruction if a person cherry picks scripture, or if a person CHOOSES to place more value on one scripture that others.
So instead of choosing scripture that supports some doctrine or tradition of men, and erasing from my mind any scripture that brings these doctrines and traditions into question, I simply let the Bible create my doctrine. This was easier for me because I had already separated myself from a Mainstream Church that EVERYBODY knows "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own doctrines and Traditions".
And even though I know, from study, that "most" will choose church tradition over God's Word, I came on this forum anyway and am sharing what I have been shown with you.
We are told by "many" that Paul says we can do "NOTHING" in respect to our salvation. And they use a few scriptures including this one as support of that teaching.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
But the same people reject and ignore the same words of the same Paul when he said the following.
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Which confirms my belief that the Gospel of Christ is the Old Testament as Paul said in Romans 1, which I was accused of lying about.
In closing, keep in mind that it was Jesus, not me, who said;
Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, (Christians) saying, I am Christ;(Saying Jesus is truly the Son of God) and shall deceive many.
It is good that you are "Testing the Spirits".
What I think you are saying is that the gospel was hidden in the OT but Paul preached Jesus and the revelation of Him out of that. Is that correct? For this is true. He pretty much wrote most of the NT, but he saw Jesus in the Old. So it was all he had. All that any of them had.
I do too.
John 17
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Do you you have a problem with the idea that we are lead by Christ? Christ said to follow Him.. to follow is behind.. One Spirit within guiding and comforting us which is from within us through Faith in Him by the power of GOD.
If you want to say you are a Child of GOD.. then that is your choice but remember this:
Hebrews 12
4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Either way there is a path to walk by Faith through Christ to enter into to the Kingdom of GOD.
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Do you you have a problem with the idea that we are lead by Christ? Christ said to follow Him.. to follow is behind.. One Spirit within guiding and comforting us which is from within us through Faith in Him by the power of GOD.
If you want to say you are a Child of GOD.. then that is your choice but remember this:
Hebrews 12
4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Either way there is a path to walk by Faith through Christ to enter into to the Kingdom of GOD.
Matthew 18:15 (CSBBible)
[SUP]15[/SUP] "If your brother sins against you, go and rebuke him in private. If he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Matthew 18:21-22 (NCV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, when my fellow believer sins against me, how many times must I forgive him? Should I forgive him as many as seven times?“
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Jesus answered, “I tell you, you must forgive him more than seven times. You must forgive him even if he does wrong to you seventy-seven times.
1 Peter 4:8 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Above all, maintain an intense love for each other, since love covers a multitude of sins.
Your theory that the sin-nature is removed from the MORTAL BODY when the human spirit is birthed into eternal life by the Holy Spirit, HOLDS NO WATER. YOUR THEORY is as FULL OF HOLES and probably more, than this bucket. Oh, and by the way, what are you going to do about those sins of your's that I just pointed out above?
[SUP]15[/SUP] "If your brother sins against you, go and rebuke him in private. If he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Matthew 18:21-22 (NCV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, when my fellow believer sins against me, how many times must I forgive him? Should I forgive him as many as seven times?“
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Jesus answered, “I tell you, you must forgive him more than seven times. You must forgive him even if he does wrong to you seventy-seven times.
1 Peter 4:8 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Above all, maintain an intense love for each other, since love covers a multitude of sins.
Your theory that the sin-nature is removed from the MORTAL BODY when the human spirit is birthed into eternal life by the Holy Spirit, HOLDS NO WATER. YOUR THEORY is as FULL OF HOLES and probably more, than this bucket. Oh, and by the way, what are you going to do about those sins of your's that I just pointed out above?
Hi gb9, I agree with your points above and the misuse of scripture to play their petty little games is a huge sin. Decon say's, "such is the way and modus operandi of all workers for, "sinless perfectionists", and all who sell Jesus out in favor of a, "cafe blend false dogma."
They disrupt and derail threads and cause confusion among the poster's and are having a grand old time doing it. Some young believers may follow their corrupted beliefs and they will both fall into a pit. All of their disputes about bible verses are bate on a hook to draw "anyone" into their dead end arguments. You lose they win every time, its a game of wits.
Originally Posted by Studyman
Your scorn is miss-placed, TT. "I welcome it of course,", but might we both be better served in addressing the actual scriptures, "all of them."
"I'm game if you are."
They disrupt and derail threads and cause confusion among the poster's and are having a grand old time doing it. Some young believers may follow their corrupted beliefs and they will both fall into a pit. All of their disputes about bible verses are bate on a hook to draw "anyone" into their dead end arguments. You lose they win every time, its a game of wits.
Your scorn is miss-placed, TT. "I welcome it of course,", but might we both be better served in addressing the actual scriptures, "all of them."
"I'm game if you are."
To keep/guard is to do.. otherwise you could not break even the least.. and the word do is there...
Matthew 5
[FONT="]18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
so if you prefer the word guard or Keep the heart of the matter is do... without you neither Keep or guard..
[/FONT]
Matthew 5
[FONT="]18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
so if you prefer the word guard or Keep the heart of the matter is do... without you neither Keep or guard..
[/FONT]
Wrong, how about you try getting your theology to square with Schripture:
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] If anyone builds on that foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] each one’s work will become obvious, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one’s work.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If anyone’s work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If anyone’s work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.
Surprise, your theory that SALVATION IS A REWARD FOR WORKS DONE WHILE WALKING BY FAITH, is utterly FALSE TEACHING, flee from it.
He really MEANT IT LITERALLY when HE inspired Paul to write.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not from works, so that no one can boast.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] If anyone builds on that foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] each one’s work will become obvious, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one’s work.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If anyone’s work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If anyone’s work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.
Surprise, your theory that SALVATION IS A REWARD FOR WORKS DONE WHILE WALKING BY FAITH, is utterly FALSE TEACHING, flee from it.
He really MEANT IT LITERALLY when HE inspired Paul to write.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not from works, so that no one can boast.
=mailmandan;3317498]
First off, thank you so much for your obvious effort and thoughtful reply. You spent a lot of time on it as evidenced and I appreciate your efforts.
You use the term "Sinless perfection" quite often. This term is never used in the Bible. Though the implication of it is that we should strive to live in obedience to God and not in Disobedience to God. I might humbly suggest that your judgment of Abraham, Zechariah and all other examples of Faith and obedience in the Bible is different than God's written judgment. If God takes a sin away, it is gone, in my understanding. It is gone 100%. And I should not allow your judgment, or the judgment of any man to change that. No offence.
Abraham is dead and was dead long before the Law and Prophets were written. If God inspired it to be written that Abraham was blessed "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Then I have Faith that this is true, 100%.
I can only use God's judgment. If He said Abraham and Zechariah were obedient, then they were obedient, 100%. If Jesus said to be perfect, then I can be perfect 100%.
It is God's judgment of this perfection I am after, not Mainstream Christianity's, or man's. It is clearly shown in the Bible that the more Righteous a person is in God's eyes, the more religious man will hate him.
Yes, that is your preaching. God said He was obedient, and for this obedience was given a GREAT blessing that we enjoy to this day.
But you are using a different judgment. God says he was obedient, but you say he was a sinner. For some reason you would rather rely on your own judgments and not the judgments of God.
Why is it so important for you to "look on the nakedness" of our father Abraham? I am hoping you might consider this point.
Why not? Is Jesus not capable of producing righteous people?
So let me ask you, does Jesus consider it a sin to create images of God after the likeness of men?
Does Jesus consider it a sin to create our own "Feasts unto the Lord"?
Are we directed to judge one scripture as Holy and another scripture as not?
Whose Righteousness then are we slaves to? God's Righteousness? Or the Doctrines and Traditions of men?
I am not. This "sinless perfection" judgment is your creation, not mine or God's. I don't live by your judgment MMD, I live by God's. If He says to stop sinning, then this is possible, certainly given all the tools he has given us to accomplish this. And isn't that the whole purpose of repentance in the first place? To turn from man's ways, religious or not, to God's Ways?
what use is it to repent from a life of sin to a church that transgress the Laws of God they their own traditions?
This is the goal. Yes. I agree with you 100% We are to strive to "Walk as Jesus Walked". We are to "Bring EVERY thought into the obedience of Christ". What is your point in discouraging His people from letting Jesus have His "PERFECT" work. I am certainly puzzled by your goals.
what if we belong to a church that "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own traditions and doctrines"?
Isn't this what the people of Christ's time were shown? Didn't they have to make a choice between the "Doctrines and Traditions" of the Mainstream "Congregation" (Church) of that day and the actual Commandments of God?
I appreciate your post and I understand given the religion we were born in into why you believe the way you do.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
We are to "Rule over the sin that is in us" Neither I nor PJW has said anything different. There is a difference between the flesh and thought of man we fight against every day,(our Cross) and "Transgressing the Commandments of God by man made traditions and doctrines, our choice.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we confess sin, it is obvious we know of that sin. After confessing we would "Go and sin no more". Nothing new here.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
When has PJW ever said he never sinned? I am not siding with PJW, I don't know him at all, I only read the post that fired you guys up.
But I don't agree that your judgment of him and others line up with the judgments given us in God's Word.
Again, thanks for your input.
First off, thank you so much for your obvious effort and thoughtful reply. You spent a lot of time on it as evidenced and I appreciate your efforts.
You use the term "Sinless perfection" quite often. This term is never used in the Bible. Though the implication of it is that we should strive to live in obedience to God and not in Disobedience to God. I might humbly suggest that your judgment of Abraham, Zechariah and all other examples of Faith and obedience in the Bible is different than God's written judgment. If God takes a sin away, it is gone, in my understanding. It is gone 100%. And I should not allow your judgment, or the judgment of any man to change that. No offence.
Abraham is dead and was dead long before the Law and Prophets were written. If God inspired it to be written that Abraham was blessed "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Then I have Faith that this is true, 100%.
I can only use God's judgment. If He said Abraham and Zechariah were obedient, then they were obedient, 100%. If Jesus said to be perfect, then I can be perfect 100%.
It is God's judgment of this perfection I am after, not Mainstream Christianity's, or man's. It is clearly shown in the Bible that the more Righteous a person is in God's eyes, the more religious man will hate him.
Yes, that is your preaching. God said He was obedient, and for this obedience was given a GREAT blessing that we enjoy to this day.
But you are using a different judgment. God says he was obedient, but you say he was a sinner. For some reason you would rather rely on your own judgments and not the judgments of God.
Why is it so important for you to "look on the nakedness" of our father Abraham? I am hoping you might consider this point.
Why not? Is Jesus not capable of producing righteous people?
So let me ask you, does Jesus consider it a sin to create images of God after the likeness of men?
Does Jesus consider it a sin to create our own "Feasts unto the Lord"?
Are we directed to judge one scripture as Holy and another scripture as not?
Whose Righteousness then are we slaves to? God's Righteousness? Or the Doctrines and Traditions of men?
I am not. This "sinless perfection" judgment is your creation, not mine or God's. I don't live by your judgment MMD, I live by God's. If He says to stop sinning, then this is possible, certainly given all the tools he has given us to accomplish this. And isn't that the whole purpose of repentance in the first place? To turn from man's ways, religious or not, to God's Ways?
what use is it to repent from a life of sin to a church that transgress the Laws of God they their own traditions?
This is the goal. Yes. I agree with you 100% We are to strive to "Walk as Jesus Walked". We are to "Bring EVERY thought into the obedience of Christ". What is your point in discouraging His people from letting Jesus have His "PERFECT" work. I am certainly puzzled by your goals.
what if we belong to a church that "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own traditions and doctrines"?
Isn't this what the people of Christ's time were shown? Didn't they have to make a choice between the "Doctrines and Traditions" of the Mainstream "Congregation" (Church) of that day and the actual Commandments of God?
I appreciate your post and I understand given the religion we were born in into why you believe the way you do.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
We are to "Rule over the sin that is in us" Neither I nor PJW has said anything different. There is a difference between the flesh and thought of man we fight against every day,(our Cross) and "Transgressing the Commandments of God by man made traditions and doctrines, our choice.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we confess sin, it is obvious we know of that sin. After confessing we would "Go and sin no more". Nothing new here.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
When has PJW ever said he never sinned? I am not siding with PJW, I don't know him at all, I only read the post that fired you guys up.
But I don't agree that your judgment of him and others line up with the judgments given us in God's Word.
Again, thanks for your input.