Lets talk about Paul

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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Take with a grain of salt. Paul is credited with raising the early assemblies from a group of sects to an bonified religion, which I feel a dubious credit for anyone to have.

I know that the early believers studied and learned and were taught fromt he Torah, the Writings and the Prophets, so they would have been more Israel than gentile, ergo being labled "Christian" may have been the turning point of making the new religion separate from Israel and the then Jews.

In my humble esteem, this could be the first major stepping stone to the great apostasy. It is in the Word that apostasy was already in existence in our forefathers' first days in Messiah.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Take with a grain of salt. Paul is credited with raising the early assemblies from a group of sects to an bonified religion, which I feel a dubious credit for anyone to have.

I know that the early believers studied and learned and were taught fromt he Torah, the Writings and the Prophets, so they would have been more Israel than gentile, ergo being labled "Christian" may have been the turning point of making the new religion separate from Israel and the then Jews.

In my humble esteem, this could be the first major stepping stone to the great apostasy. It is in the Word that apostasy was already in existence in our forefathers' first days in Messiah.
I should add, for it is very important to me, that previous to believers becoming known as Christians, they were known to each other simply as people of the faith of Abraham, that is if what Jesus, Yeshua, was taught was heard.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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RED LETTERS, the highest authority in the Word. I always followed that my self. Though I have see on here that some with to say Paul holds just as much authority as the SON OF HASHEM. Never get me to go down that road folks.
Some Bibles have a gradient of red... why would you trust one author above others?
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Yes Yeshua means God is salvation. Jesus as you call him. Don't get me wrong, I have always said that If He created all language, He understand them all. SO the title one uses IMHO doesn't really matter. One should use what they know, and He will know what is in your heart.
As for me, after many years of studying with many Jewish leaders, it has became a habit I have not tried to brake.

Although HaShem in all truth means, THE NAME
Joshua (Ya hoh shoo ah') means God is the Savior.
Jesus (Yeshua) means Salvation

Ps 96:2
2 Sing unto the Lord, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day.
KJV

B'shroo..... m'yom ........ l'yom ......... Yeshuato

Proclaim.... from day ... to day........Salvation His
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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You are right, the only known book of Paul that was written all most 100% in Hebrew, was the book of Hebrews. My reason for say almost, is that Paul did use some phases that came from Greek, and when translated into Hebrew lost there full impact. The rest of letters were to Greek speaking peoples.
Huh!
There is absolutely no proof of this!
Hebrews is written in Koine not in any other language.
I repeat that there is NO evidence for this at all.
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
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Huh!
There is absolutely no proof of this!
Hebrews is written in Koine not in any other language.
I repeat that there is NO evidence for this at all.
In linguistics the term "koine" is now applied to any modified language variety that has developed from contact between dialects of the same language or, in some cases, between languages that are genetically or typologically related.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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In linguistics the term "koine" is now applied to any modified language variety that has developed from contact between dialects of the same language or, in some cases, between languages that are genetically or typologically related.
It is specifically a dialect of Greek!!!!
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
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It is specifically a dialect of Greek!!!!
Ya should have said that in the first place. I didn't know what "koine" meant until I looked it up on line. LOL

Now we can talk about Paul. He ain't here to listen to all that we have to say about him. Maybe he wrote Hebrews in Greek, and Romans in Hebrew. He was bilingual ya know. Hard tellin'
 
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graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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Ya should have said that in the first place. I didn't know what "koine" meant until I looked it up on line. LOL
And maybe you should not be barking at shadows!
Why comment if you have no idea of what you are talking about...
 
K

Karraster

Guest
I will start this study when I get some things done. Sadly one of them is a trip to the doc. I hate Doc's, they seem to always want to push one drug or another. I my self won't take them, as I like having a clear mind, and clean body. You are all in my prays, and May HaShem bless us all with new knowledge and understanding through this study of his Word.
We'll be praying for you friend, for recovered health. Thanks for your patience and perseverance, you're a blessing and welcome addition to this site.
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
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And maybe you should not be barking at shadows!
Why comment if you have no idea of what you are talking about...
Your handle doesn't exemplify your attitude. Bye "grace and peace?"
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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Your handle doesn't exemplify your attitude. Bye "grace and peace?"
With respect - you contradicted me from complete ignorance.
If one is precluded for contending for truth on a site like this then there is no point in being here....

For you: where is the grace in arguing a point that is completely false?
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" (Acts 24:14)
When a person says that Paul is saying the law isn't for true believers, then they aren't following Paul's example even if they use Paul to justify themselves and their vain manmade doctrine.

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Hi unobstrusive, maby you should not quote only a vers to support your view. It is better to use the context then you will find out that Paul is not teaching to follow the OT-Law

Acts 24, 11-16
Because you may understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city: 13 Neither can they prove the things of which they now accuse me. 14 But this I confess unto you, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. 16 And in this do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men.

"......believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets" must not mean automaticly to follow it. If you read Galatians and how Paul react to Peter and the other christians coming out of the jews when they avoid to eat togehter with the christians coming from gentile background. I cant understand how somebody can say that Paul is supporting to follow the law for christians. We have not to hold the rules which are given f.e.in leviticus. We are no Jews!
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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Huh!
There is absolutely no proof of this!
Hebrews is written in Koine not in any other language.
I repeat that there is NO evidence for this at all.
There is if one looks to the dead sea scrolls, you see they are in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Most of teh common people in Israel at the time used Hebrew, as they had no need to learn Greek. Then hay we all have what we wish to follow, so keep your dream I will keep mine.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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We'll be praying for you friend, for recovered health. Thanks for your patience and perseverance, you're a blessing and welcome addition to this site.
You want to hear the funny part of all that?
I spent years praying that I would be given some way to teach, with out having to change any one for it, study and not be interrupted by work, yet some how have what I need to gt by.
One day my right leg gives out me for what I thought was no reason. Then it just keep doing that, taking longer every time to regain the use of it. So when it came time to renew my health card, I lost my DOT certification, and my CDL. Had to get an MRI to get it back, so I could go back to work. Well I found my leg was given out because I has (and I hope I spell this right) spinal stenosis. So now I am on the disabled list. Pray answered. I may be in pain, and unable to walk at times, yet HaShem did answer my pray.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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There is if one looks to the dead sea scrolls, you see they are in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Most of teh common people in Israel at the time used Hebrew, as they had no need to learn Greek. Then hay we all have what we wish to follow, so keep your dream I will keep mine.
The Dead Sea scrolls have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the NT book of Hebrews.
What you have provided is not an explanation but a fudge...

The book of Hebrews, in common with the rest of the NT was written in Koine Greek - no argument.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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What I understand from Karraster, ans suspected all along, reading Paul's contributions in letters to the assemlies, just about any point of discussion may be proven be it pro or con...

God bless all in Christ.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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OK time to get back on track here. For the folks that wish to be about if Paul said to follow the Law, please take that to a thread that has already be hijack for the. This is, and will remain about Paul the man, His letters are the only insight we have to him, and if that leads to the Law then ok. So until then, leave that dead horse at the door. Thank you for the disruption, we are over it, you should get that way as well.

Just for fun I am going to use the CJB in this study. If you don't have one, it's ok. The teachings are the same in almost every translation. I know I am going to have someone say how wrong I am for that, or how they don't think it follows the true intent, and so. Get over that as well. I will use it and totally ignore any bad mouthing of said script

Romans Chapter 1
1 From: Sha'ul, a slave of the Messiah Yeshua, an emissary because I was called and set apart for the Good News of God.
2 God promised this Good News in advance through his prophets in the Tanakh.
3 It concerns his Son - he is descended from David physically;
4 he was powerfully demonstrated to be Son of God spiritually, set apart by his having been resurrected from the dead; he is Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord.
As we will Paul seems to open a lot of letters in this fashion. He does so to show that the great truths he is expounding on come from the Scripture. As we have already seen to try and say that Paul called anything other than the Tanakh Scripture is a lie. A bit harsh maybe, yet the truth is what it is. I am not a man to sugar coat a lie by calling anything other than what it is.
Here we also see that Paul is letting us know that this truth he has for us, is about Yeshua. Now some may ask how can this come from the Tanakh? Well truth be told, (and this may becomes a study some day) Every thing that is found in teh socalled NT, can be taught from the Tanakh.

5 Through him we received grace and were given the work of being an emissary on his behalf promoting trust-grounded obedience among all the Gentiles,
6 including you, who have been called by Yeshua the Messiah.
7 To: All those in Rome whom God loves, who have been called, who have been set apart for him: Grace to you and shalom from God our Father and the Lord Yeshua the Messiah.
As we see Paul is telling us about grace. This is not a new form of salvation as some may wish to teach. Abraham was given salvation by grace, do to his faith, and obedience. One may not that here teh word Shalom is use, and not peace. The Hebrew word Shalom is understood as peace, yet it goes much deeper than being with out conflict. Though I understand it's meaning, I am not sure I would do it justice by trying to explain it. So I will simply say it is that inner peace that comes over a person through the Ruach Ha Kodesh (Holy Spirit).
8 First, I thank my God through Yeshua the Messiah for all of you, because the report of your trust is spreading throughout the whole world.
9 For God, whom I serve in my spirit by spreading the Good News about his Son, is my witness that I regularly remember you
10 in my prayers; and I always pray that somehow, now or in the future, I might, by God's will, succeed in coming to visit you.

If we look at what Paul just said, I find myself thinking of al the people I have heard pray in church, and even the prayers I have seen written on line. Few ever ask, "Not my will but yours be done" Just saying is all.
11 For I long to see you, so that I might share with you some spiritual gift that can make you stronger -
12 or, to put it another way, so that by my being with you, we might, through the faith we share, encourage one another.
13 Brothers, I want you to know that although I have been prevented from visiting you until now, I have often planned to do so, in order that I might have some fruit among you, just as I have among the other Gentiles.

Paul is not looking for others to follow him blindly. He is also not saying that he is the reason for any fruit or following of Yeshua. Paul knew that any that came to Yeshua did so not at his calling, rather by Faith that Paul said was true. i.e. The Spirit moved them to faith.
14 I owe a debt to both civilized Greeks and uncivilized people, to both the educated and the ignorant;
15 therefore I am eager to proclaim the Good News also to you who live in Rome.

In Pauls time the narrowly religious would forgo knowledge which could enlarge their experience and their understanding of how things and people work.This was to keep from becoming contaminated by worldly, or secular influences.Just as today, some stay clear of anything that is not what they follow, for fear of having something challenging their church doctrine. Paul on the other hand, or it seems anyway, Had no fear of this at all. He seemed to understand that no matter how much one thinks they know, they can learn something from anyone. Here he makes it clear that this is the case, by his claim of having a debt to then all. Something we should all learn.
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God's powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.

The use of the phrase, "Keeps on rusting" does a better good of showing us what we should do, than the phrase,"thous who believe" ou see trusting, show an action that keeps going, or is renewed. Believe, show a one time action, that may fade in time.
This is why you see the phrase Loving faithfulness used by many people. as it shows that HaShem is loving,an act that keeps going, and not love, an act that one more may fade over time.
17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in his sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust - as the Tanakh puts it, "But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust."

Paul is talking of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Though once one reads the whole of the Tanakh, they will find many examples of people living and follow HaShem by trust in Him.
18 What is revealed is God's anger from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people who in their wickedness keep suppressing the truth;
19 because what is known about God is plain to them, since God has made it plain to them.
There are some that say HaShem is not the same today as he was in the Tanakh. Back then He was angry, and vengeful. Today He sings Kum by ya, and passes out worm fuzzys. It is beyond me how they can think he has changed.Paul is also clear that HaShem doesn't like it when people hide the truth or to keep it from being told. Yes I know someone will pick that up and say HaShem must be mad at me then. That's good though. After all, I see it coming. Only now that I said that, they not, just to show me wrong.
20 For ever since the creation of the universe his invisible qualities - both his eternal power and his divine nature - have been clearly seen, because they can be understood from what he has made. Therefore, they have no excuse;
21 because, although they know who God is, they do not glorify him as God or thank him. On the contrary, they have become futile in their thinking; and their undiscerning hearts have become darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they have become fools!
23 In fact, they have exchanged the glory of the immortal God for mere images, like a mortal human being, or like birds, animals or reptiles!

When one thinks about creation, they can't help to think how everything was created so support what came after it. In order, and not one thing before it had what it needed. Also Paul is alluding to Psalms 19:1-2. or is 2-3? The rest of this passage may well be speaking to the animal rights folks, that put the rights of an animal before the lives of people. Although, in many church's if you know what to look for, you will find images, that got there start in pagan worship.
24 This is why God has given them up to the vileness of their hearts' lusts, to the shameful misuse of each other's bodies.
25 They have exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, by worshipping and serving created things, rather than the Creator - praised be he for ever. Amen.
26 This is why God has given them up to degrading passions; so that their women exchange natural sexual relations for unnatural;
27 and likewise the men, giving up natural relations with the opposite sex, burn with passion for one another, men committing shameful acts with other men and receiving in their own persons the penalty appropriate to their perversion.

Homosexuality was rife in the first century.Just as today it seems to growing faster than ever. This is because as Paul said, HaShem has given them over to their lust. You see, what Paul is telling us here, is that if we turn our backs on HaShem, and turn away any attempt by Him to bring us into His family, He will give up at some point. This is why any true believers should Love the sinner, and hat the sin. Though the sin is a result of their action, the person if they find that true unconditional love can be theirs, may turn to that love, and away from sin.
Now I have seen it said that HaShem gives them over to sin, as a means of punishment. Though I can see the point being made, I do find it hard to think that HaShem would place sin the hearts of anyone. After all that sin had to be there already.

28 In other words, since they have not considered God worth knowing, God has given them up to worthless ways of thinking; so that they do improper things.
29 They are filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and vice; stuffed with jealousy, murder, quarrelling, dishonesty and ill-will; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God; they are insolent, arrogant and boastful; they plan evil schemes; they disobey their parents;
31 they are brainless, faithless, heartless and ruthless.
32 They know well enough God's righteous decree that people who do such things deserve to die; yet not only do they keep doing them, but they applaud others who do the same.

Although this does seem to read that HaShem has give them over to sin. What Paulis saying is that HaShem has given up His efforts to bring them to salvation. As a result of this, Satan has filled them with every kind of evil they will let into their hearts. Some translations say He abandoned them, and this may be a more fitting translation. Stick around folks, this gets more fun with every passing chapter.

May HaShem place on your hearts the thing He need us to know, and may He also place a stop sign on the hearts of any that wish simply to post as a distraction. Even if they do not know that is what they are doing.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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Oh if you really don't like the CJB let me know. I just used it for fun. I know that it tells the same thing as anyother, yet I also understand that some folks are so scare of anything Jewish, they simply cringe at the idea of it being used to teach. Then yes I also know that some people find it off, and unworthy of being call a true translation. I can live with that as well. After all it is the only translation I know that was done just by one person.