Lets talk about Paul

[Rainrider]

If you read Romans 2 "in context" Paul is using that to show that both Jews who have the law and Gentiles who have the law in their hearts will be judged by that law. The law and their adherence and breaking of it will see if they are justified or not.

Again - the law of Moses is NOT for the righteous. 1 Tim. 1:9

We are the righteous in Christ - we have died to the law, been released from the law and not under the law of Moses - but under grace only. Romans 6:14 & Romans 7:1-6

Paul goes on to say in chapter 3 that no one will be justified by the works of the law so he is not contradicting himself when you read it through the revelation of Christ Himself and His finished work on the cross and resurrection.

The Gentile Christian is NOT under the law of Moses nor is the Jewish Christian for that manner.

Romans 3:19-20 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;


[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.


Galatians 2:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.



Are you of Jewish descent? Is that why you call Jesus by a Jewish name? What does HaShem mean? I'm not familiar with that term. Thanks.

I almost over looked this one, sorry for that. I am going to give you more than 2 passages, as it seem the idea of only posting 2 and no more seem to matter little. After I answer this post however I am going to bring this thread back to it's intent, that would be to look at all of Paul's writings, with out bias, giving clear and in context with the WHOLE of the Word.

You stated and I quote.

If you read Romans 2 "in context" Paul is using that to show that both Jews who have the law and Gentiles who have the law in their hearts will be judged by that law. The law and their adherence and breaking of it will see if they are justified or not. [/QOUTE]

The Word tells us the new covenant is,
Jer 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


Jer 31:32 “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.


Jer 31:33 “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.



And Paul repeats this for us,
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


Heb 8:9 “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
Heb 8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

We as believers are a part of the House of Israel.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

This would place the Law in our hearts, so by your words we will be judged by the Law.

As you have not answered my first question, I am not really expecting an answer here.

 

[Rainrider]

HaShem means the name. they are afraid to say God or Yahweh

The use of HaShem (or the name) is help avoid the use of the wrong name in an inappropriate manner. The Hebrew language has 72 names for HaShem. ElOhim would be most fitting in most cases, and can be seen as fitting by some in all cases. Yet that name comes up short more often than not.

 

[Grace777x70]

I almost over looked this one, sorry for that. I am going to give you more than 2 passages, as it seem the idea of only posting 2 and no more seem to matter little. After I answer this post however I am going to bring this thread back to it's intent, that would be to look at all of Paul's writings, with out bias, giving clear and in context with the WHOLE of the Word.

You stated and I quote.

If you read Romans 2 "in context" Paul is using that to show that both Jews who have the law and Gentiles who have the law in their hearts will be judged by that law. The law and their adherence and breaking of it will see if they are justified or not. [/QOUTE]

The Word tells us the new covenant is,
Jer 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


Jer 31:32 “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.


Jer 31:33 “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.



And Paul repeats this for us,
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


Heb 8:9 “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
Heb 8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

We as believers are a part of the House of Israel.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

This would place the Law in our hearts, so by your words we will be judged by the Law.

As you have not answered my first question, I am not really expecting an answer here.

You haven't answered my question about whether you are of Jewish descent which is why you use a Jewish name when referring to the Lord.

I have found some in the Jewish natural descent that have received Jesus as Lord when they heard the gospel message of Him - as being very knowledgeable about "seeing Christ in the law and feasts".

The law written on our hearts in the New Covenant is NOT the law of Moses which is why God said in Hebrews "It is NOT like the old".

Here is a great article that speaks about what is written on our hearts now that we are in Christ. I like to use this website as it has at the bottom a place where you can ask questions and sometimes I learn from that area a lot.

The Law Written on Our Hearts is not the Ten Commandments

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time,” says the Lord. “I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” (Heb 10:16)

“This is obviously a reference to the law of Moses,” says the law-preacher. “The Ten Commandments were written in stone, now they’re written in the hearts and minds of God’s people.”

Not true. Here are seventeen reasons why God has not written the Ten Commandments on your heart:

1. The law inflames sin (Rom 5:20) and the strength of sin is the law (1 Cor 15:56). Why would God want to stir up sin in your life?


2. The law condemns (2 Cor 3:9), yet there is no condemnation to those in Christ.


3. The law ministers death (2 Cor 3:7), but God wants you to enjoy abundant life.


4. Law and grace don’t mix. You are under grace, not law (Rom 6:14).


5. Living by the law will alienate you from Christ (Gal 5:4).


6. Living by the law is cheating on Jesus (Rom 7:1-6). Why would God do anything to encourage spiritual adultery?


7. We’re to live by faith but the law is not of faith (Gal 3:12). The law encourages us to depend on ourselves instead of Jesus.


8. Those who live under the law are under a curse (Gal 3:10). Why would God curse those he has blessed?


9. The law binds and enslaves (Rom 7:6), but Jesus wants you free.


10. The law keeps you immature for it makes nothing perfect or complete (Heb 7:19).


11. We have died to the law so that we may serve in the new way of the Spirit and “not in the old way of the written code” (Rom 7:6).


12. When there has been a change of priesthood, the law must be changed also (Heb 7:12). For God to write the old law on our hearts would be like saying Aaron is greater than Jesus.


13. God found fault with the law-keeping covenant and made it obsolete (Heb 8:7,13). Why would God insult his Son’s sacrifice by giving you the very thing his sacrifice rendered obsolete?


14. The law is a shadow of the good things to come and not the reality (Heb 10:1). Why would God give you the shadow instead of “the good thing”?


15. The Jews considered the law to be ordained by angels (Heb 2:2). If so, says the author of Hebrews, then it is inferior to the gospel of Jesus (Heb 1:4). Why would God give you an inferior gift?


16. Some Christians think that God gives them the law as a guide to live by, but why would God want you to repeat the mistake of the Galatians (Gal 3:2)? Why would God do anything to make you fall from grace?


17. The old law-keeping covenant required an accounting or remembering of sin, but the new covenant is characterized by God forgiving and forgetting on account of Jesus (Heb 10:17). If the law that God writes in our hearts is the law of Moses, then Jesus died for nothing.

If God has written the Ten Commandments on your heart and mind, you should be able to list all ten with no trouble. Can you? What’s the seventh commandment? You can’t do it because it’s not there, and a very good thing that is too! If the law that God writes in our hearts is the law of Moses, you’re in big trouble.

The good news is that God has written in us a far better law. What is this new and better law?

Unquote:

Here is the address for the website for those wanting to read the questions - I often learn from the others there giving their comments.

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/04/...-commandments/

 

[Grace777x70]

We can't be left hanging here about what or rather Who is written on our hearts now that we are in Christ.

What is this new law that is written on our hearts seeing as we know it's not the ten commandments in the form given in the Law.

What is this New Covenant that Ezekiel is prophesying about that was to come and now is here manifested in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection?

What is the Law Written on Our Hearts?

Six-hundred years before Jesus came, the prophet Jeremiah spoke of a new covenant that God would make with his people:


“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.” (Jer 31:33-34)

What is the law that God writes on our hearts and minds? Here are three things it is not:

• It is not the law of Moses. As we saw in the last post, if God wrote the Ten Commandments on our hearts then Jesus died for nothing.

• It is not a new and improved version of the law. It is not the new commands of Jesus or the New Testament. We cannot please God by keeping a new law any more than we could please him by keeping an old one.

• It is not the knowledge of right and wrong that was bestowed upon us – against the Lord’s wishes – by Adam.

So what is this law that the Lord writes on our hearts and minds and embeds in our very being?

It is Christ Himself.

Let’s look at three things the New Testament says about the new law in our hearts.

1. The law of love

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34)

Under the old law covenant, love was demanded from you. “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.”

But under the new covenant of grace, love is given to you – “As I have loved you” – and out of the overflow of Christ’s measureless love we are able to love others.

How does it happen?

God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. (Rom 5:5)

God abundantly pours his love into our hearts by giving us the Holy Spirit, a.k.a. the Spirit of Christ. Do you see the difference between the old and new?

• Under the old, the law was a rule for weak men to obey. Under the new, the Law is the Spirit of Christ given to us, loving us, and loving others through us.

• Under the old, you loved others because you feared punishment. But under the new, you love because a Lover lives in you and it is his nature to love.

• Under the old, you had to make an effort to obey. But under the new you have to make an effort to disobey. It’s a whole new way of life.

2. The law of the Spirit of life

It’s important that you understand the difference between the old law (a written code you can’t keep) and the new Law (Christ himself, living in you). Try and live by the old laws, as Paul did, and it make you miserable:

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? (Rom 7:24)

Paul couldn’t keep the old law no matter how hard he tried. He needed a new law and that new law is a Who:

Who will rescue me…? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 7:24-25a)

Do you see? The old law is a what; the new law is a Who. The old law ministers condemnation and death (2 Cor 3:7-9), but the new “law of the Spirit gives life” (Rom 8:2).

For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2 Cor 3:6)

Who gives life? Not a set of rules, but the Spirit of Christ within you. The new law is a Who.

3. The perfect law of liberty

James wrote of “the perfect law that gives freedom” (Jas 1:25), which can be contrasted with the law of Moses that binds (Rom 7:6).

What is the perfect law that gives freedom? Well, what is the implanted word that can save you (Jas 1:21)? It’s not the Ten Commandments or the Bible. It’s Jesus, the living Word who sets us free.

The perfect law of liberty describes what Jesus has done (perfectly fulfilled or completed the law) and the fruit he will bear in our lives (liberty) if we trust him.

But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it – not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it – they will be blessed in what they do. (Jas 1:25)

Look into the mirror of Moses’ law and you will be miserable, for it exposes all your faults. But look into the perfect law which is Jesus and you will be blessed, for it reveals His righteousness.

“Don’t just listen but do what it (the perfect law of liberty) says” (Jas 1:22). In other words, allow the Spirit of Christ to convince you that in him you are righteous and holy.

Don’t walk away from the perfect law and forget who you are in Christ. Fix your eyes on Jesus. Look intently with an unveiled face and be transformed into his likeness.

The Law written in our hearts is Jesus

Jeremiah said those who had the new law written on their hearts would know the Lord and would no longer need others to teach them. This is describing your union with Christ. One with the Lord you have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16). His Spirit dwells in you and teaches you all things (John 14:26).

The law of the Lord written into your members is your Father’s spiritual DNA. It is the seed of God birthed in you by the Holy Spirit. It’s Jesus Himself.

How do you know He’s there? Because you are a new creation with new hopes and desires. You no longer want to sin.

Your desire is to love God and others and that desire has nothing to do with old rules written in stone.

Christian, you are who you are because Christ lives in you. He is the new law written, by God, in your heart and mind.

Unquote:

Here is the address for the website for those wanting to read the questions - I often learn from the others there giving their comments.

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/04/...on-our-hearts/

 

[Rainrider]

I almost over looked this one, sorry for that. I am going to give you more than 2 passages, as it seem the idea of only posting 2 and no more seem to matter little. After I answer this post however I am going to bring this thread back to it's intent, that would be to look at all of Paul's writings, with out bias, giving clear and in context with the WHOLE of the Word.

You stated and I quote.


You haven't answered my question about whether you are of Jewish descent which is why you use a Jewish name when referring to the Lord.

I have found some in the Jewish natural descent that have received Jesus as Lord when they heard the gospel message of Him - as being very knowledgeable about "seeing Christ in the law and feasts".

The law written on our hearts in the New Covenant is NOT the law of Moses which is why God said in Hebrews "It is NOT like the old".

Here is a great article that speaks about what is written on our hearts now that we are in Christ. I like to use this website as it has at the bottom a place where you can ask questions and sometimes I learn from that area a lot.

The Law Written on Our Hearts is not the Ten Commandments

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time,” says the Lord. “I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” (Heb 10:16)

“This is obviously a reference to the law of Moses,” says the law-preacher. “The Ten Commandments were written in stone, now they’re written in the hearts and minds of God’s people.”

Not true. Here are seventeen reasons why God has not written the Ten Commandments on your heart:

1. The law inflames sin (Rom 5:20) and the strength of sin is the law (1 Cor 15:56). Why would God want to stir up sin in your life?


2. The law condemns (2 Cor 3:9), yet there is no condemnation to those in Christ.


3. The law ministers death (2 Cor 3:7), but God wants you to enjoy abundant life.


4. Law and grace don’t mix. You are under grace, not law (Rom 6:14).


5. Living by the law will alienate you from Christ (Gal 5:4).


6. Living by the law is cheating on Jesus (Rom 7:1-6). Why would God do anything to encourage spiritual adultery?


7. We’re to live by faith but the law is not of faith (Gal 3:12). The law encourages us to depend on ourselves instead of Jesus.


8. Those who live under the law are under a curse (Gal 3:10). Why would God curse those he has blessed?


9. The law binds and enslaves (Rom 7:6), but Jesus wants you free.


10. The law keeps you immature for it makes nothing perfect or complete (Heb 7:19).


11. We have died to the law so that we may serve in the new way of the Spirit and “not in the old way of the written code” (Rom 7:6).


12. When there has been a change of priesthood, the law must be changed also (Heb 7:12). For God to write the old law on our hearts would be like saying Aaron is greater than Jesus.


13. God found fault with the law-keeping covenant and made it obsolete (Heb 8:7,13). Why would God insult his Son’s sacrifice by giving you the very thing his sacrifice rendered obsolete?


14. The law is a shadow of the good things to come and not the reality (Heb 10:1). Why would God give you the shadow instead of “the good thing”?


15. The Jews considered the law to be ordained by angels (Heb 2:2). If so, says the author of Hebrews, then it is inferior to the gospel of Jesus (Heb 1:4). Why would God give you an inferior gift?


16. Some Christians think that God gives them the law as a guide to live by, but why would God want you to repeat the mistake of the Galatians (Gal 3:2)? Why would God do anything to make you fall from grace?


17. The old law-keeping covenant required an accounting or remembering of sin, but the new covenant is characterized by God forgiving and forgetting on account of Jesus (Heb 10:17). If the law that God writes in our hearts is the law of Moses, then Jesus died for nothing.

If God has written the Ten Commandments on your heart and mind, you should be able to list all ten with no trouble. Can you? What’s the seventh commandment? You can’t do it because it’s not there, and a very good thing that is too! If the law that God writes in our hearts is the law of Moses, you’re in big trouble.

The good news is that God has written in us a far better law. What is this new and better law?

Unquote:

Here is the address for the website for those wanting to read the questions - I often learn from the others there giving their comments.

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/04/...-commandments/

I did state that I am not Jewish. It may not have ben in direct reply to you, though it did answer that question.

 

[Rainrider]

I have been thinking of the best way to do this. I am thinking covering one chapter at a time, as I am doing with the Torah. It goes a bit faster yes, however all passages can be seen in context, and all commentary can be see that it does fit.
Please let me know if this sound good to any that wish to follow this thread with respect to what will be covered, and not disruptive by trig to turn it into something it is not.

 

[unobtrusive]

That may well be well and good for any that find the Law to hard to deal with, or wish it removed for what ever reason. Yet by your own words, The Spirit of HaShem guides us in the Lew. To keep us from sin. As we know sin is,
1Jo 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Also once more we face the idea that Paul speaks against himself. A contradiction of his own thoughts. You say he speaks against the Law, Yet
Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

As we see, he also speaks being justified by it. This is why a study of Paul s indeed needed.

I like quoting these scriptures about Paul. They cannot be argued against.

"Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample." (Philippians 3:17)

"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" (Acts 24:14)

When a person says that Paul is saying the law isn't for true believers, then they aren't following Paul's example even if they use Paul to justify themselves and their vain manmade doctrine.

Jesus ripped the Pharisees for the same thing, actually. Speaking of principles.

"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:46-47)

One has to wonder what spirit the despisers of the law (Torah) are really following, for Jesus resisted the devil by quoting the law 3 times at the end of His 40 days of testing in the wilderness.

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

 

[unobtrusive]

I have been thinking of the best way to do this. I am thinking covering one chapter at a time, as I am doing with the Torah. It goes a bit faster yes, however all passages can be seen in context, and all commentary can be see that it does fit.
Please let me know if this sound good to any that wish to follow this thread with respect to what will be covered, and not disruptive by trig to turn it into something it is not.

I think that's a good idea. The scriptures translated into English can, in fact, be misleading. I would contribute using the "Aramaic English New Testament" translation and refer to the footnotes that define what Paul was actually saying. I think that most of what Paul wrote was in Greek, (I could be wrong) but as far as Romans is concerned, He was writing to the Jews that were in Rome. Romans would be a good place to start, but be prepared for major arguments. Paul was fluent in many different languages, and the churches in Asia Minor had scribes to translate Paul's letters into the language those people spoke. I think such were the Bereans mentioned in Acts 17. (smile)

2 Peter 3:15-16
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[JaumeJ]

I know that Paul insists he is passing on the same teaching, that is the same gospel as given by our Lord, Jesus Christ. There is no other gospel..

Paul also insists that people who claim to be of the faith may only belong to Jesus Christ, not to Peter, not to JOhn, not to Paul, himself.

With the above always in mind, I read Paul without fear, yet my bottom line understanding only comes from our Master, Jesus Christ. He has invited me and all to learn of Him, so I accept this blessed priviilege with a whole and grateful heart.

As concerning Paul, something tha has always nagged at me is the truth that there is no prophecy of any writings coming from him. He is revealed and spooken of primarily ob himself, his own witness. This just nags, nothing more, I still read his letters but with all caution in the sight of myactual Teacher, Jesus Christ.

Some may say the Twelve are not prophesied either,however I believe they are the men given to Jesus mentioned in Zech.3.

The only authority I have for believing Paul is writing words from God are his witenesses of himself. Again, I have no fear of Paul's writings, but at the same time I neither have fear of relying solely on the teaching from Jesus Christ only.

According to Paul, he dos not vary from Christ's teachings, so why not, right?

 

[unobtrusive]

I know that Paul insists he is passing on the same teaching, that is the same gospel as given by our Lord, Jesus Christ. There is no other gospel..

Paul also insists that people who claim to be of the faith may only belong to Jesus Christ, not to Peter, not to JOhn, not to Paul, himself.

With the above always in mind, I read Paul without fear, yet my bottom line understanding only comes from our Master, Jesus Christ. He has invited me and all to learn of Him, so I accept this blessed priviilege with a whole and grateful heart.

As concerning Paul, something tha has always nagged at me is the truth that there is no prophecy of any writings coming from him. He is revealed and spooken of primarily ob himself, his own witness. This just nags, nothing more, I still read his letters but with all caution in the sight of myactual Teacher, Jesus Christ.

Some may say the Twelve are not prophesied either,however I believe they are the men given to Jesus mentioned in Zech.3.

The only authority I have for believing Paul is writing words from God are his witenesses of himself. Again, I have no fear of Paul's writings, but at the same time I neither have fear of relying solely on the teaching from Jesus Christ only.

According to Paul, he dos not vary from Christ's teachings, so why not, right?

While being taught according to the law and the prophets, by Gamaliel, Paul excelled above others. He was a perfect pick to confirm the spiritual truth that he had learned previously as a Pharisee. Before his conversion, he was the same as Matthew describes Jesus' reactions in chapter 23. After his conversion he understood the spiritual ramifications of the original writings. Distortion of the truth is persecution of Jesus Himself, and Paul writes, talking about himself for the purpose of not being a persecutor as he was previously.

"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;" (Ephesians 3:8)

"For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God." (1 Corinthians 15:9)

"For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:" (Galatians 1:13)

 

[JaumeJ]

Yes it is true all of this is written about Paul. I have reread his letters many times. As yet, I do not care to say I understand him because he has a tendency to confuse any given issue, all of his letters considered at one time.

My point is, Jesus Christ, Yeshua, is teh Reliable for learning what the law is now, and just how it cannot be abolished..

Yeshua gives grace quite abundantly when He says, believe that I am the Son of God, and you will be saved.

When we believe Him, we will not sit on our hands. We will obey the commandments because they have been transformed for all who believe Him, into wisdom and joy.

I never receive this sensation fro reading Paul, only from reading and believing Jesus Christ. This is not said to be agains Paul, as I said, he tends to confuse every issue, but directly from Yeshua I have no problem and I receie peace that surpasses all understanding, even the understanding of Paul.

While being taught according to the law and the prophets, by Gamaliel, Paul excelled above others. He was a perfect pick to confirm the spiritual truth that he had learned previously as a Pharisee. Before his conversion, he was the same as Matthew describes Jesus' reactions in chapter 23. After his conversion he understood the spiritual ramifications of the original writings. Distortion of the truth is persecution of Jesus Himself, and Paul writes, talking about himself for the purpose of not being a persecutor as he was previously.

"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;" (Ephesians 3:8)

"For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God." (1 Corinthians 15:9)

"For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:" (Galatians 1:13)

 

[Blik]

To understand Paul is to first learn all about the man that Paul was for God chose him to be nthe spostle to the gentile, using all that Paul as a man had to offer.

First, he grew up in a gentile world by parents who were Jewish. God wanted a man who knew Him well and all His scripture.

Paul had a wonderful mind for he was accepted and did well in the most difficult university of his time.

Paul was a natural leader and a rabbi as his work before he knew Christ points out. God is one, our eternal God, and anyone must know His principles through what we now call OT scripture. As the Bereans in Acts pointed out as they listened to the message to the gentiles, everything Paul says must agree with scripture as they knew it.

Paul met the Holy Spirit face to face so any misconceptions he had learned about God were wiped out. The synagogue was teaching doctrine they thought up as scripture, they called it traditions. It was very like the doctrine much of our churches teach that is man's interpretation of scripture.

So when we interpret what Paul says as something different from OT teaching we are not understanding Paul. The OT teaches to obey the law, so does Paul. The OT teaches wthat we are saved only through the grace of God and innocent blood is required. So does Paul. The OT teaches that we were not given the power to save 0urselves through what we do, it is only the power of God to save us, so does Paul.

 

[unobtrusive]

To understand Paul is to first learn all about the man that Paul was for God chose him to be nthe spostle to the gentile, using all that Paul as a man had to offer.

First, he grew up in a gentile world by parents who were Jewish. God wanted a man who knew Him well and all His scripture.

Paul had a wonderful mind for he was accepted and did well in the most difficult university of his time.

Paul was a natural leader and a rabbi as his work before he knew Christ points out. God is one, our eternal God, and anyone must know His principles through what we now call OT scripture. As the Bereans in Acts pointed out as they listened to the message to the gentiles, everything Paul says must agree with scripture as they knew it.

Paul met the Holy Spirit face to face so any misconceptions he had learned about God were wiped out. The synagogue was teaching doctrine they thought up as scripture, they called it traditions. It was very like the doctrine much of our churches teach that is man's interpretation of scripture.

So when we interpret what Paul says as something different from OT teaching we are not understanding Paul. The OT teaches to obey the law, so does Paul. The OT teaches wthat we are saved only through the grace of God and innocent blood is required. So does Paul. The OT teaches that we were not given the power to save 0urselves through what we do, it is only the power of God to save us, so does Paul.

Good explanation my friend!!

Paul points out the errors of falling back into Gentile pagan practices, and in addition exposes the fallacy of Pharisaical doctrines of men that were never written in the original law that God gave to Moses. The Talmud seems to be the written documents (the letter of the law) that Paul debunks in his epistles. I could be wrong about that, but that's my take.

 

[Karraster]

I know that Paul insists he is passing on the same teaching, that is the same gospel as given by our Lord, Jesus Christ. There is no other gospel..

Paul also insists that people who claim to be of the faith may only belong to Jesus Christ, not to Peter, not to JOhn, not to Paul, himself.

With the above always in mind, I read Paul without fear, yet my bottom line understanding only comes from our Master, Jesus Christ. He has invited me and all to learn of Him, so I accept this blessed priviilege with a whole and grateful heart.

As concerning Paul, something tha has always nagged at me is the truth that there is no prophecy of any writings coming from him. He is revealed and spooken of primarily ob himself, his own witness. This just nags, nothing more, I still read his letters but with all caution in the sight of myactual Teacher, Jesus Christ.

Some may say the Twelve are not prophesied either,however I believe they are the men given to Jesus mentioned in Zech.3.

The only authority I have for believing Paul is writing words from God are his witenesses of himself. Again, I have no fear of Paul's writings, but at the same time I neither have fear of relying solely on the teaching from Jesus Christ only.

According to Paul, he dos not vary from Christ's teachings, so why not, right?

You and I have discussed this before and I think we see it pretty much the same, so I'm just jumping off your post.

The irony. Of all the writers in the Bible, who does the Christian world choose "mostly" to follow? Paul, (Shaul) a Hebrew of the Hebrews, a Pharisee blameless concerning the Law, an apostle for the gentiles. Is it any wonder he relied heavily on the synagogues where Moses was taught? Because one would need some education to fully understand him. (not saying I fully understand him)

He debates himself in a midrashic style common to Jewish rabbis. Without totally understanding it myself, I can say he makes use of a strawman, puts him forth then knocks him down! Is it any wonder some of his writings are confusing to us? Especially when not considering them in totality?

What's more, many christians have taken Paul's writing and ran with it, thinking he created an entirely new relegion. How dangerous is that? Paul is not our saviour, tho I thank Almighty for him.

Bottom line, the Words of our Creator/Messiah should always be first. I don't think Paul contradicts, but if at any point is seems so I just know I'm not understanding Paul.

 

[Karraster]

I have been thinking of the best way to do this. I am thinking covering one chapter at a time, as I am doing with the Torah. It goes a bit faster yes, however all passages can be seen in context, and all commentary can be see that it does fit.
Please let me know if this sound good to any that wish to follow this thread with respect to what will be covered, and not disruptive by trig to turn it into something it is not.

Nehemiah 6;3 so I sent messengers to them with this reply: "I am carrying on a great project and cannot go down. Why should the work stop while I leave it and go down to you?"

The above scripture has helped me press on to do even various small tasks. How much more appropriate/important here?

Observation, "hyper-grace" arguments lead to never ending disputes. Easily identified~they (some here at least) think the Israelites asked for the Law(.) Gentiles did not ask for the Law(.) I hope you realize why the periods are in parenthesis.

Please carry on in whatever manor you see fit. This is a much needed study.

 

[Rainrider]

I think that's a good idea. The scriptures translated into English can, in fact, be misleading. I would contribute using the "Aramaic English New Testament" translation and refer to the footnotes that define what Paul was actually saying. I think that most of what Paul wrote was in Greek, (I could be wrong) but as far as Romans is concerned, He was writing to the Jews that were in Rome. Romans would be a good place to start, but be prepared for major arguments. Paul was fluent in many different languages, and the churches in Asia Minor had scribes to translate Paul's letters into the language those people spoke. I think such were the Bereans mentioned in Acts 17. (smile)

2 Peter 3:15-16
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

You are right, the only known book of Paul that was written all most 100% in Hebrew, was the book of Hebrews. My reason for say almost, is that Paul did use some phases that came from Greek, and when translated into Hebrew lost there full impact. The rest of letters were to Greek speaking peoples.

 

[Rainrider]

I like quoting these scriptures about Paul. They cannot be argued against.

"Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample." (Philippians 3:17)

"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" (Acts 24:14)

When a person says that Paul is saying the law isn't for true believers, then they aren't following Paul's example even if they use Paul to justify themselves and their vain manmade doctrine.

Jesus ripped the Pharisees for the same thing, actually. Speaking of principles.

"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:46-47)

One has to wonder what spirit the despisers of the law (Torah) are really following, for Jesus resisted the devil by quoting the law 3 times at the end of His 40 days of testing in the wilderness.

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

This can be made clear with a truck load of Passages, though I will turn only to Act.
Act 18:21 but took leave of them, saying, “I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem;[fn] but I will return again to you, God willing.” And he sailed from Ephesus.

Not much point in keeping a feast that in your own teachings was removed by the cross.
Act 18:18 So Paul still remained a good while. Then he took leave of the brethren and sailed for Syria, and Priscilla and Aquila were with him. He had his hair cut off at Cenchrea, for he had taken a vow.

This Vow if any wish to understand this passage, is the Vow of a Nazarite. As this is the only Vow in the whole of the Word that calls for one to shave their heads at the end of it. Please read Nub. chapter 6 to understand this.
So if Paul is going to walk his faith by obedience, to Torah, and tell us that it is not valid, is trying to lead us away, to make more room for Jews, is he just confused, or maybe the strain of moving from his life long faith into a new and unknow faith is just to much, and he is having a mental melt down.

 

[Rainrider]

I know that Paul insists he is passing on the same teaching, that is the same gospel as given by our Lord, Jesus Christ. There is no other gospel..

Paul also insists that people who claim to be of the faith may only belong to Jesus Christ, not to Peter, not to JOhn, not to Paul, himself.

With the above always in mind, I read Paul without fear, yet my bottom line understanding only comes from our Master, Jesus Christ. He has invited me and all to learn of Him, so I accept this blessed priviilege with a whole and grateful heart.

As concerning Paul, something tha has always nagged at me is the truth that there is no prophecy of any writings coming from him. He is revealed and spooken of primarily ob himself, his own witness. This just nags, nothing more, I still read his letters but with all caution in the sight of myactual Teacher, Jesus Christ.

Some may say the Twelve are not prophesied either,however I believe they are the men given to Jesus mentioned in Zech.3.

The only authority I have for believing Paul is writing words from God are his witenesses of himself. Again, I have no fear of Paul's writings, but at the same time I neither have fear of relying solely on the teaching from Jesus Christ only.

According to Paul, he dos not vary from Christ's teachings, so why not, right?

RED LETTERS, the highest authority in the Word. I always followed that my self. Though I have see on here that some with to say Paul holds just as much authority as the SON OF HASHEM. Never get me to go down that road folks.

 

[Rainrider]

You and I have discussed this before and I think we see it pretty much the same, so I'm just jumping off your post.

The irony. Of all the writers in the Bible, who does the Christian world choose "mostly" to follow? Paul, (Shaul) a Hebrew of the Hebrews, a Pharisee blameless concerning the Law, an apostle for the gentiles. Is it any wonder he relied heavily on the synagogues where Moses was taught? Because one would need some education to fully understand him. (not saying I fully understand him)

He debates himself in a midrashic style common to Jewish rabbis. Without totally understanding it myself, I can say he makes use of a strawman, puts him forth then knocks him down! Is it any wonder some of his writings are confusing to us? Especially when not considering them in totality?

What's more, many christians have taken Paul's writing and ran with it, thinking he created an entirely new relegion. How dangerous is that? Paul is not our saviour, tho I thank Almighty for him.

Bottom line, the Words of our Creator/Messiah should always be first. I don't think Paul contradicts, but if at any point is seems so I just know I'm not understanding Paul.

Even though I am willing to undertake this study, and do my best to explain Paul, and his writing, make no mistake, we will find parts that will take debate, and learning from all of us to get close to the truth of his words. After all, Paul as Peter tells us is hard to understand. So if a person tells me they have Paul's writings down and now what every letter means, troughs up red flags in my mind.

 

[Rainrider]

I will start this study when I get some things done. Sadly one of them is a trip to the doc. I hate Doc's, they seem to always want to push one drug or another. I my self won't take them, as I like having a clear mind, and clean body. You are all in my prays, and May HaShem bless us all with new knowledge and understanding through this study of his Word.