Not By Works

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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Grace I don't agree with the way you portray scripture and use Daffy Duck with regard to Truth... call me old fashioned but I believe the things written.

let those that relate to what you say recieve.. I refuse... but not despise you the person.

I wish to believe but be not high minded...
well, I don't agree with works salvationists , and saying that believers can be perfect, so there.
 
May 11, 2014
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Mr willybob I sent you a PM, its impossible to keep up with the pace of this thread. Got too much work to do.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Grace I don't agree with the way you portray scripture and use Daffy Duck with regard to Truth... call me old fashioned but I believe the things written.

let those that relate to what you say recieve.. I refuse... but not despise you the person.

I wish to believe but be not high minded...
You are free in Christ to believe how you want on some subjects....:)....

Personally I love to use Daffy Duck and Donald Duck as the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation to show the stupidity of saying that people can lose salvation in Christ - as if sin was greater than the blood of Christ.

"Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world".

Now all that remains is to believe. Right believing will bring right thinking which will bring right living - all based on the grace of God in Christ operating in our lives.


The whole concept violates the very nature of the character of God - the work of Christ and the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place.

As I have said - you are free to believe what you choose but people will be preaching and teaching the total dependence on the work of Christ for righteousness and for life.

As we have received Christ - so we walk in Him for growing up. It is all by grace through faith in what Christ has already done. Col. 2:6-8

Get this backwards and we have a religion that nullifies the grace of God that is in Christ from operating like it was meant to.

Bless you and have a great day!
 
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Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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Of course we are to encourage one another unto good works. This is not for eternal salvation as Christ's work alone on the cross and resurrection has obtained our eternal redemption Heb. 9:12. We don't save ourselves. He is the Savior.

The willful sinning in Heb. 10:26 is the rejection of Christ's sacrifice for sins as the author of "Hebrews" was speaking to Jewish people that were going to the temple to sacrifice animals instead of having faith in Christ's finished work after hearing or obtaining the "knowledge" of Christ.

There is a vast difference between "receiving Christ Himself " and the "knowledge" of Him. We must believe!


Notice the author said - "But we are not of those that draw back from Christ and thus are saved."

I firmly believe in encouraging others to good works. I have written many times about it and I will post it again fro the new viewers of the thread.


We "get to do good works and we are participating in the family business of telling and showing others of the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them" because His life is in us now - but they are not for salvation nor for maintaining being saved.

That's an anti-Christ belief system that is simply a works-based self-righteousness belief system that denies the very work of Christ.

An example of "good works" are when we encourage people to actually believe what Jesus has said and what He has already done. It is a good work to encourage Christians to believe that He alone has obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12

Right believing in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection and that we too have died with Him and rose to newness of life - will bring right thinking ( repentance ) which will manifest in His life being seen in our lives outwardly as His fruit is borne on us the branches.

This is what produces real godliness based on Christ alone by grace through faith.


As
we have received Christ - so we walk in Him. Col. 2:6-8

This is all done by grace through faith alone in Christ and what He has already done on the cross and resurrection.


Without Him - we can do nothing.

It is a "good work" to encourage people to trust that He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it. (Phil. 1:6)

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians to believe that we are new creations in Christ ( 2 Cor. 5:17 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians that Christ alone is our wisdom, our righteousness and our sanctification and our redemption. ( 1 Cor. 1:30 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians to believe that we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection and no amount of good works can save us nor "keep us saved". Christ alone is the Savior of the world - especially of believers. ( Eph. 2:8-19 & 1 Tim. 4:10 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians that we will walk in the good works that God has already prepare for us to walk in as His life becomes manifested in and through us to reveal the love and grace of our loving Father and our Lord has for others. ( Eph. 2:10 & Phil. 2:13 )

It is a "good work" for us to encourage Christians that we are safe in the hands of the Lord and we who truly believe have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and He will be in us forever - just like Jesus said. ( Eph. 1:13, 4:20 & John 14:16 )

It is also a "good work" to remind Christians that there is a warning for not relying on the life of Christ in us for life and living while on this earth.

All the works of the flesh will bring destruction in this life of some sort - whether living the homosexual lifestyle or the exhibiting of malice, outbursts of anger, deceitfulness or the slandering of others in the body of Christ.

Fail to rely on the grace of God that is only in Christ's finished work and trying to do things in our own flesh will not get us to experience the life of Christ that is in our inner man of the heart where Christ dwells and where we are in the kingdom of God.

The warning scriptures are needed and to be heeded - once the proper foundation of Christ and His finished work are firmly established in the hearts and minds of us Christians. From there - then the warning scriptures will have their proper place.

If we want to experience our inheritance that is ours in Christ while we are in this earth - it's imperative that we don't live by the flesh.

But the firm foundation is Christ Himself and you can no more lose the redemption that is in Christ then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

We are beloved children of our loving Father and He will not throw His beloved children into hell and the lake of fire because they don't do enough "good works".

Where there is "security" - there are the nutrients for "maturity". Let's believe what Christ has said and what He has already done for us and grow in the grace and knowledge of Him.
Hebrews 5:7-9 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

James 2:19-24 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.

AMEN. ALL GLORY BE TO GOD.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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satan does not want us to have security, he wants us to fear, for if we fear, we are worried, and unable to fully walk in the spirit,

as paul said, God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a SOUND mind, he also said we were not given a spirit of bondage again to fear, but of adoption, whereby we can cry out abba father,
The Lord wants us to walk in His ways, follow love, abide and obey His word.
I was told I was too emotional, but this post is all about feelings and not reality.

Having a belief you are safe when you are sinning and in rebellion is simply delusional.
Paul preached one main idea, in Christ we have the power to walk righteously.

What many want to preach is defeat is ok, when this is the opposite of what it means
to know the power of Christ working in our hearts.

Being transformed from one state of glory to another has never been one state of
sinning to another. Yes there are defeats, but getting up and walking on is the fight
and defines our goal and how we get there.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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True faith will have a corresponding action of some kind.

Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action.

Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies.
Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.


James 2:20-25 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[SUP]22[/SUP]You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out nor contradict the basic truth of believing in Christ brings eternal life when we hear the true message of Christ's work and that we have the forgiveness of sins.


We do the very same thing when we hear the message of Christ and we believe and then God seals us with the Holy Spirit. This is our faith
with a corresponding action or a "work".

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Jesus said to do the work of God was to believe in the Son.

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what does it say? "
THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

[SUP]9 [/SUP]
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10[/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

This is faith with corresponding action - or a work. This is how we are saved by grace through faith just like Paul said.

James talk about "faith" and "works" is in relation to helping out our fellow man that is in need.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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An interesting fact about Abraham being declared righteous by God Himself is that he was declared to be righteous by God because Abraham "believed God " - 15 years before he "offered up Isaac".

His faith was completed as a result of already being declared righteous by God.

Knowing the truth about what God says about us releases true faith to grow and be manifested. There is a false way of trying to create works in order to create and maintain righteousness. This is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

True righteousness which comes only from God's work in Christ always comes when we believe what God says is true. There are "fruits of righteousness" as James talks about which shows up in helping our fellow man in need but they do not create righteousness.

Being righteous in Christ comes first because of His work on the cross and resurrection. Getting this backwards creates a religion of self-righteousness and actually denies the work of Christ Himself.

Preach and teach the good news that Christ alone is our righteousness and then the fruit of His life will be manifested in "deeds of righteousness" as He bears His fruit in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace that our loving Father has for them.

We will then see corresponding action or works that glorify God as the fruit of His life is manifested in and through us.
 
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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Everything you posted is fine with me, but help me out here, because I am not understanding the above part?

The Bible said that iniquity was found in Satan heart because he wanted to exalt himself over God....this was his sin, rebellion and pride this happen before he fell, so it happened in Heaven....so how does humans tempting him come into play?
Well, we definitely delve a bit into the realm of speculation on these issues, but I'm not so certain satan's fall happened in Heaven. Most of what we glean about "the shiny one" lucifer, we get from Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Notice how these verses seem to indicate his fall happened on Earth, in Eden.

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.


14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

On the face of it this passage alludes to the possibility that satan was in the Garden of Eden when the original iniquity was found.
He absolutely wanted to be worshiped, and STILL does, as God,but I think he wanted other attributes of God as well, and certainly the ability to create matter, and especially sentient, organic matter, coupled with the desire to be worshiped, is what led to the birth of his iniquity.

God created beings, capable of love and worship.He wanted to be, or emulate, The Most High God. He and his followers could NEVER duplicate love, but in a warped, distorted way, his children worship him, and the rest.

Again, I don't want to make settled doctrine over this, just hashing it out brother.

 
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Feb 24, 2015
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The tactic by some is to despise Gods commands as dead, and claim nothing now limits them.

This is immoral and lawless, the opposite of our Lord God.

Make no mistake those who preach lawlessness are the enemies of the Kingdom of heaven.
They wish to put on sheep's clothing but condone any behaviour if it is done with faith, which
by definition is the basis of a psychotic break and against what love is.

People have been in church so long, they want acceptance with no downside.
There problem is church baggage, so much emotion linked to hurt experiences of the past which
find venting by condemning simple believers as anti-Christ religionists. Their allegiance is with
all those who feel faith is in boxes and simple to define. Look around, look at scripture, look at
Christs warnings, it is a walk, and all you will know is the masters voice and His encouragement.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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I remember enough that I was responding to what you wrote underneath this. I just can't remember what you wrote but something about hypergrace. I know my response was that if the new creation man is being taught, then Holiness will be a result. Not sin.
I wrote about hyper grace and Free Grace Theology, two erroneous and dangerous doctrines. Before you disagree with that statement, when you declare holiness being a part of the believers life you are already preaching against both systems by stating this. These teachings deny this necessity.

One can teach all they desire about holiness, but this won't be the result in the life if the person is a false converted or unconverted.

Here is my original post, minus the meme, to which you asked your question:

Even perhaps more dangerous than hyper-grace is the Free Grace Theology camp. Many popular preachers teach this lie, and it would fall under the category of what D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is saying above. It teaches a person can live unchanged, however they desire, without evidence of conversion, practice sin and still go to heaven contrary to 1 Corinthians 6:9ff; Ephesians 5:5ff, and Galatians 5:19ff.

Look into it, use your discernment, find the proponents thereof and listen very carefully to what they teach. Grace Evangelical Society has a video on this false gospel that it embraces. Again, look into it and be warned. :)
 
Nov 22, 2015
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True grace doesn't permit us to stay the same; after you know that you are not condemned - it empowers you to change.

Grace was never intended to allow us to keep on being the same as the true gospel of the grace of Christ is God's very empowerment through the life of Christ in and through us that transforms us - as we behold the glory of Christ as in a mirror - we see reflected back who we are in Him because we are one spirit with the Lord and the Spirit transforms us ( 2 Cor. 3:17-18 ) -

His life transforms us outwardly to reflect Christ that is in our inner man - created in righteousness and holiness. We "awake to righteousness and sin not". Awake means to come to ourselves - to sober up.

When we see that we are called to the true life in Christ and we know we can't work it up and can't accomplish it in our own strength but we desire that His life in us to come forth - that's when empowering grace comes to make our faith a reality in our lives.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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James 2:19-24 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. *Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
*Notice that Abraham was "considered righteous" or "shown to be righteous" (not accounted as righteous) for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar.

*In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean hat Abraham was finally saved based on his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

You see that a person is justified by what he does and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So when James says "faith alone" or "faith only," he is not talking about genuine faith but an empty profession of faith that demonstrates by the lack of producing works that it's dead (James 2:14).

AMEN. ALL GLORY BE TO GOD.
Amen! In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

It is through faith (rightly understood) "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Personally I believe that preaching the grace of God in the gospel of Christ without the other transformation part that grace brings is not right and perhaps there are some that do that - but I have not seen it.

I have seen others "accuse" them of saying it because they only hear the first part of grace being put forth which is the acceptance grace but didn't stay for the other transformational part - which is the empowering grace that brings true transformation of the life of Christ being manifested in and through us.

Thus they attack the "acceptance" part of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ and call it "easy believe-ism".
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Peter, if you are going to attempt to belittle someone at least check your grammar. It's your head, not you head.
limey - the point here is people like yourself do not want a focus on Jesus but a
compromise that denies all He intended.

When typing most of us miss out a letter here or there.
What matters is why we share and knowing the great love we have in Jesus and for Him.
It is obvious many claim the name of Christian but are not following Him or care about
judgement. To the Lord the lost are always lost, in or out of church.

Take heart brothers and sisters, because we have overcome death through our Lord and
master, so listen to Him and know many false teachers will come and deny His words like
the serpent in the garden of Eden. But it does not matter, just share and leave them alone,
they will never agree or change, it is their heart that has not been warmed, though they
know the word well, God chooses His own.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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There are 2 aspects to grace and it can be seen in Jesus dealings with a woman caught in adultery.

The very first thing that Jesus does with the woman caught in adultery is that He gets rid of her accusers - the religious Pharisees that wanted to condemn her because the "bible" said so in the Old Covenant...she was to be stoned. (
the law condemns us )

Jesus was the only one qualified to condemn her but He didn't.


1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior -
as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you".

It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.

2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace.

Empowering grace enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ now because you are a new creation in Him.


The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you."

The grace of God and the blood of Jesus speaks of better things in this New Covenant of grace!

"Knowing" that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us. It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in us!

Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.


What believers in a self-effort/self-performance D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness based mindset and the self-appointed "fruit inspectors" have a very hard time with is the "acceptance grace" part.

Also this acceptance part of the good news of Christ's finished work of grace "conflicts" with those that believe our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell and the lake of fire if they don't mature in this life.

This just drives them nuts and I understand why because it is scandalous and it "conflicts" with our religious man-made traditions and some church teachings from our denomination or "group".
 
Feb 24, 2015
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A tree is either sound or false.

Jesus says only a few find the way to life. So ignore those who start changing everything.
It is God who defines spiritual reality through His statements, not us.