Not By Works

[Cee]

I would say, if this were the only difference, we could come to an agreement, because we both have the same desire,

1. we all want to see people follow god
2. we can't earn salvation,

which like you and many of us in here, we have been proclaiming these things as facts since day one,

the reason son there is so much heat is because these are not the only two beliefs, as a few have outright declaired openly, they believe works are required to be saved, and one said even the cross is not enough, we have our part in the act of salvation,

and it is here where all the division and discord is seen.

I understand, what I am referencing is the motivation of why I'm seeing people believe "works are required to be saved". When pressed hard enough I've noticed most of them are more in line with "works keep you saved". Their thought process being that "faith and belief" require works to be true.

What I am addressing is the deeper issue that good works actually come from relationship with God because He is the only One that knows what a true good work is. And at its core it comes from knowing Him and treating others how He treats us.

 

[TruthTalk]

After being in this thread for quite a long time.

It feels like some people stress works because they want to see people follow Jesus' commands. And that I believe is an incredible desire, one I fully agree with!

And some stress grace because they know that while faith without works is dead in its ability to bear fruit. None of us can actually earn our salvation. If that was possible why would Jesus have needed to be given?

Where I believe the chasm of misunderstanding is in the idea of "good works".

Did the Pharisees exercise good works?

Was their "perceived holiness" and strict obedience to what they believed Scripture to be: holiness?

I don't think so.

I believe in fact they missed what good works are the moment they tried to "do what Scripture taught for eternal life".

The idea that we ourselves can somehow do enough, or follow enough laws to make God pleased with us is really quite prideful. He doesn't have to love us based on what we do. He chooses to love us based on who He is.

And its in accepting His love that we begin to walk out what a "good work" is treating others as He treats us.

The issue with everyone outside of Christ is that their love and works originate with them, but our love and works originates from Him. And this is why I believe we must first be saved in order to be His witness and to do true good works.

Hi Cee,

Why did God accept Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's; It was Pride, Cain did not do what God required, but Abel did.

So; am I saved by Grace, plus my works, (Like Cain); or is the sacrifice of Jesus all sufficient.
We are saved unto good works, that God has prepared for us, not by them.

Believe, confess and repent; Grace though faith in Jesus Christ, plus nothing; True Gospel.

If you add just a little bit of dirt, (your works), to a glass of pure water; you have just muddied the whole glass of water.

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Romans3:27,28

Our works are evidence of God's love shed abroad in our heart. Romans5:5

Praise God

 

[Rosemaryx]

Yes!!!

we must do all these things, because not a person in this room wants to ruin their testimony where they are unable to share gods word, our first priority. So we must work out the salvation god gave us and be lights in a wicked world,

it is when we say we must do these to keep, or not lose our salvation or sonship that we get into legalism, and depending on self for salvation.

Yes i understand...Amen...xox...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The gospel is a basic truth, if we do not have it right, there will be no maturing, we have to get saved first, and there is only one gospel which will save us.

Yes, we may disagree on other aspects of the Christian life, and may need to grow to understand more, if If the root of the gospel is wrong, we are still dead

a dead person can not grow, they must be made alive first. We can only be made alive by the one true gospel,

I think sometimes you might assume a man is dead when he is not.
To not yet fully understand it all is not to be dead. It is just to have not learned fully, yet.
I am a living, breathing exhibition of someone who had received the Spirit but was full of many errors of thought and understanding. I EVEN thought God communed with me so often because I was obeying Him! That's a kick in the pants right there. I took credit for His blessings to me!

 

[preacher4truth]

“To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that :fadeth not away:, reserved in heaven for you.” 1 Peter 1:4

If I'm a good boy today, I'm saved; but if I should raid the cookie jar tomorrow, I am not saved;
a false gospel.

But the (worker/a.k.a. Gospel denier) is stronger than God's Word, can bleach out His Word with their unbelief and make the promise fade away.

Workers = "Billy goat" religion: When shown the unchanging promises of the Gospel to His sheep all they can say is "But, but, but, but, but..."

 

[stonesoffire]

I think sometimes you might assume a man is dead when he is not.
To not yet fully understand it all is not to be dead. It is just to have not learned fully, yet.
I am a living, breathing exhibition of someone who had received the Spirit but was full of many errors of thought and understanding. I EVEN thought God communed with me so often because I was obeying Him! That's a kick in the pants right there. I took credit for His blessings to me!

We all can be hoodwinked into this. It's why it's so important to hold to the Head, and what He has finished for us. Remain at rest so we can hear His orders. Then move. Still not of us because we rely on His power.

Its easy to fall into works. It's our nature to try to please others by serving.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think for me to be honest I have come to the conclusion that Jesus is greater than it all.

It is he who sits at the judgment seat an he alone who says "Well done good and faithful servant" it his he who separates the sheep and the goats based on his verdict of what we have done. And what we have done we have done for him as a result of knowing him.

I would say given my life experience thst actually what I have done for him was not out of love as such but in order to be loved.
When I realised that he actually loved me then my whole world changed and our relationship took on a whole new dynamic.

My father loves me as much as my Jesus and he sent him to this world for me.
There is no greater love than that.
If we trust get that then we walk in that.

ps on a side note given that I am Scottish 100% if ever you find out that it's only ???% and remind me of that then I will be truly offended and I would have to give you the Glasgow kiss


FREEDOM as William Wallace said.

Truth is FREEDOM IS FOUND IN CHRIST

As with salvation, only God knows if your really 100% I can only go off what you say.

 

[Rosemaryx]

I forgot to say something else Rosemary.
You asked if I don't think it's hard to walk in the fruits of the Spirit. You have asked a very big question.
It was very hard for me when I tried so hard.
When I saw that all my hard trying ended in failure at some point, every time, I admitted my weakness and poverty and stopped trying and started asking for what I lacked. At that point, it became much easier because His strength is perfected in my weakness. Therefore, I will glory in my weakness because when I am weak and admit it, He is strong!

Amen sister, the same as you was I...But these fruit we are commanded to walk out, with practice, none of us can just say " Oh yes i know what I must do ", for the Lord is patient, He knows we are week, but we can do ALL things through Him, for He is our strength...xox...

 

[Cee]

We all can be hoodwinked into this. It's why it's so important to hold to the Head, and what He has finished for us. Remain at rest so we can hear His orders. Then move. Still not of us because we rely on His power.

Its easy to fall into works. It's our nature to try to please others by serving.

We must be wary of the "work" of trying to persuade or convince others.

That's where a relationship with the Spirit of Freedom comes in. We respond to Him, we don't react to them or what they say. He sets the agenda in His Kingdom.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I understand, what I am referencing is the motivation of why I'm seeing people believe "works are required to be saved". When pressed hard enough I've noticed most of them are more in line with "works keep you saved". Their thought process being that "faith and belief" require works to be true.

What I am addressing is the deeper issue that good works actually come from relationship with God because He is the only One that knows what a true good work is. And at its core it comes from knowing Him and treating others how He treats us.

I agree, sometimes it takes awhile but the truth usually comes out, there are quite a few people I know it took me awhile to figure out they did not believe in reality works saved, but as me, one who is saved will work,

a hearer but not a doer, we all agree, has never met god personally, they have yet to bcause me "poor in spirit" as Jesus said is required if we ever want to be blessed.

 

[preacher4truth]

No Christian is complete until we stand before Jesus.

The golden chain of redemption includes all phases to the believer as accomplished;

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Romans 8:29-30

But let's be careful here in saying this is not complete (though I get what you mean but wish to clarify). It is complete, but the believer has not yet personally experienced this in eternity.

"Glorified" here is in the active voice, meaning the one stating this has already accomplished this. God has already completed this action - it cannot be undone.

Furthermore, the predestining, the calling, the justifying, the glorification -- each of these terms are in the same exact tense. The preceding context goes on to show the impossibility of these things being undone. It is as impossible for a person to lose His salvation as it is for God's Word to lie.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes i understand...Amen...xox...

It is is so wonderful when two people can have a conversation where neither one feels they have to attack the other, then find out after a wonderful discussion we actually believe the same.

Amen sis.

 

[willybob]

I made the comment about the aorist tense.

Why does anyone feel that must know GREEK to understand the bible?

I kind of agree with everything else you've said.
Aintcha glad?

Those of the flesh must make scripture fit the needs of the flesh, thus Judas always had a devil and never was saved in order to fit their twisted theology of OSAS.......Jesus gave power to devils to cast out devils???????????????????? .they make the bible say the opposite to sooth the flesh and its lusts therein. You can explain it 6 ways from Sunday and they will never get it because they are forever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth....they resist truth at all points....

 

[TruthTalk]

Hi TruthTalk...I am learning from others as I am learning from our Lord more importantly before any other being...But i must say out of your post i have now learned that Moses was the first adopted child into the family of God, have i got that correct...xox...

Yes that is a true statement: Moses was the first recorded adoption in the bible; Exodus2:10 You can also see the movie titled; Exodus, where Charlton Heston who played Moses, was found floating down the Nile river and thus his adoption happened by the providence of God.

 

[Rosemaryx]

You know its funny rosemary just yesterday i was thinking what could i do with my spare time in my offfice space to come ? when i retire..... i know i could build a tesla sunroof and a storage battery for all that power like 13.5 kilo whats of electricity...tell me is this good and should i build it and watch them come ?...

Jim...You must do what ever the Lord brings you to do, no matter what you think or others think, who knows, if you do it unto the Lord, then you will be doing right...People will come and say " Hey Jim, what you doing " and you could say, the Lord is given me the desires of my heart ...xox...

 

[UnderGrace]

I agree and what was dead was once alive, there can be no death unless there was life.

So when we say dead faith perhaps it is better understood as a faith that is inoperative.

Faith is belief in action with confidence.

I too who was absolutely grounded in the faith and knowledge of the assurance of salvation fell into finishing in my own effort what God had started.

I think sometimes you might assume a man is dead when he is not.
To not yet fully understand it all is not to be dead. It is just to have not learned fully, yet.
I am a living, breathing exhibition of someone who had received the Spirit but was full of many errors of thought and understanding. I EVEN thought God communed with me so often because I was obeying Him! That's a kick in the pants right there. I took credit for His blessings to me!

 

[dcontroversal]

I just read Galatians 1-4 and really Paul was teaching the New Testament in place of the Old..

He really worked to stop people being bewitched by the circumcision who rejected Faith in place of works.. as in the law of Moses.

He genuinely believed and was Faithful to the New Husband.. the New Testament of Our Lord . He was different to the rest because He was not an eye witness so He was converted and sharing from within by the Holy Spirit.

He took the Gospel to the Gentiles and then wrote His epistles.. So they refer and explain.. teaching Truth but the Testament is the Messiah's Testimony... not Paul's writings.

The Words of Eternal life come through the Messiah's Testimony... that is why He teaches us to build our house there.

The Bible is set in such a way from cover to cover.. even a final Teaching in Revelation to believe and take heed.

The contrast is between beginning in the spirit by faith and finishing it off by the flesh (works) and the context is salvation.....faith plus works to gain, keep or facillitate salvation = false gospel with no power!

 

[Magenta]

The body of Christ can be defined by certain things or people....

As sad as it is to say, many are the 11 that never got out of the Boat....

Many are under the spell of false humility and identify with Peter and his faith when he got out of the boat...

Some might be the storm the boat was caught in....

Some think they are the boat itself....

Jesus wants you to get out of your boat to come to him so he can impart something into you, so that you can turn around and start looking for other boats in the storm....then when you find that boat, you can say...I have been where you have been, but I met a man, walking on the storm........

That is the heart of what the 12 step program is!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think sometimes you might assume a man is dead when he is not.
To not yet fully understand it all is not to be dead. It is just to have not learned fully, yet.
I am a living, breathing exhibition of someone who had received the Spirit but was full of many errors of thought and understanding. I EVEN thought God communed with me so often because I was obeying Him! That's a kick in the pants right there. I took credit for His blessings to me!

If you do not fully understand you have no capacity to repent and recieve th spirit if God, how can you,

as as long as there is hope, I have faith God will keep you alive until you repent, not against your will but he will make sure you have the chance, he is a faithful God and is willing that non should perish for eternity. He will make sure you have that chanc as long as he knows you will and believe you me, he does, he knows everything you will do until the day you die, he knew it beforehand re you were born, he knew it before you were a sparkle in your mothers eyes, he knew it before he created the earth.

The fact remains,

1 if you do not think your sin (all of it) will keep you from heaven, you have not repented
2, if you do not think you are spiritually bankrupt to the point you have absolutely no hope, and no matter how good you become in the future, you will still be lost, you have not repented,
3, if you honk even after you pray, you have to add your work to he cross to maintain your salvation, you have not repented.

As jesus said, we must become spiritually bankrupt (poor in spirit) like the tax collector, in order to enter the kingdom of God. Otherwise, we will still rely on self, and have not depended fully on God.

It took me a few years to fully understand even though I prayed for months for God to save me, it takes some people longer, some people shorter. Some can go to church their whole lives and never understand, (although they have no excuse, they must be open)

 

[Rosemaryx]

I think sometimes you might assume a man is dead when he is not.
To not yet fully understand it all is not to be dead. It is just to have not learned fully, yet.
I am a living, breathing exhibition of someone who had received the Spirit but was full of many errors of thought and understanding. I EVEN thought God communed with me so often because I was obeying Him! That's a kick in the pants right there. I took credit for His blessings to me!

Hi SBG...I believe everyone of us has been there to what you have said...We have all believed we have heard from God but we have not, it`s called discerning, but thank God we hear our shepherds voice, I believe also that this will be a problem all the days of our life, that`s why we are warned to be sober minded against the evil one who whispers false talk in our ear...xox...