Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
I'm wary of using human logic to debate clear Scripture, but my thoughts are Jesus sent them out 2 at a time. So even IF Judas was sent out, he was sent out with a true believer, but even when we look at the account of Judas we don't see positive things about him.

Remember when he said, hey we should give that to the poor! But he said it because HE was the money bearer. So it shows he was pocketing the money even before he betrayed Jesus.

Another point on Judas, he was possessed by Satan, Satan literally entered him. But a lot of people would agree that Christians can't be possessed. Now, the disciples didn't yet have Holy Spirit in them, but they did have Holy Spirit on them.

If you have read through the thread you will see that some believe that Jesus would not send an unsaved disciple to preach to the people?

I do not see that one negates the other, Jesus still allowed Judas a role even in the ministry even to teach and then Judas fulfilled his final role.

Your thoughts?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
Another point on Judas, he was possessed by Satan, Satan literally entered him. But a lot of people would agree that Christians can't be possessed. Now, the disciples didn't yet have Holy Spirit in them, but they did have Holy Spirit on them.
And Judas would have been the exception. Everything revealed about Judas indicates that the Lord already knew that he was not a genuine disciple, but because Scripture had to be fulfilled (Zech 11:12,13), Judas was allowed to remain with the twelve. Even the other eleven apostles did not really know this man's heart and his motives. Covetousness was his primary sin, which led to the betrayal of his Master. And Scripture says that "he went to his own place" and also that he was "the son of perdition". So Judas was damned.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
I think we agree. I am saying Judas wasn't a Christian because he got possessed. And I believe you are saying he wasn't a Christian because he was not a genuine disciple.

And Judas would have been the exception. Everything revealed about Judas indicates that the Lord already knew that he was not a genuine disciple, but because Scripture had to be fulfilled (Zech 11:12,13), Judas was allowed to remain with the twelve. Even the other eleven apostles did not really know this man's heart and his motives. Covetousness was his primary sin, which led to the betrayal of his Master. And Scripture says that "he went to his own place" and also that he was "the son of perdition". So Judas was damned.
 
Z
Why the remorse for what he did then?
I think we agree. I am saying Judas wasn't a Christian because he got possessed. And I believe you are saying he wasn't a Christian because he was not a genuine disciple.
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
41
48
Judas was picked long before he was born to be the fall guy. God saw him coming.
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
41
48
The truth to this mystery is one of the fallen Angels agreed to perform this task as Judas, because deception was what he did. he was doomed anyway, so he volunteered to be the one to betray Jesus. That is why he was called the son of perdiction(one that is already doomed anyway)
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
41
48
right, he went back to his own place. he was either one of the fallen that was left here on earth, or one that had been bound. sentence had already been set on this fallen angel known as Judas.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Well the Bible doesn't say specifically so like I said I'm wary of theology being created through human reasoning. But, I would say when Satan left him he realized he condemned an innocent man to die. Even unsaved people will feel remorse for this.

Heres my thoughts:

1. He says innocent blood not my Lord.
2. His remorse brought him to suicide not to repentance. He didn't turn to the Lord.

3Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus[SUP]a[/SUP] was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, 4saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.”5And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself.

Why the remorse for what he did then?
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
Interesting you left out the first line of Romans 7 and some other important parts like

“Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?” Rom 7:1.

He then explains that we died to the law when we were wedded to Christ!

And you should also note that it is that the scripture needs to be consistent and Paul would not contradict himself therefore…

Paul is not writing here from the experience of a believer but of who he was under the law

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” Rom 7:23

This is his experience as a believer……

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.” Rom 8:2

Nothing left out deliberately my dear.. I often state to read all the chapter. I can not post everything each and every time as I'm sure you agree..
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
And based upon your above post to G777 it is obvious you fail to understand the word perfect in context.......your MODERN APPLICATION of perfect is missing the mark!

modern application? You are not of Heavenly Father and the Messiah and feel threatened by the Truth. You are an unpleasant man that have not the Love of GOD in Him. You believe not.

This soldier like display may fool some here but those who are His are not deceived by you.

May you Repent and Believe.

modern day Pharisee if ever I saw one.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
This thread is the result of those who wrestle with epistles of Paul... if it happened during Peter's time it is happening now. Rampant.

Paul is not your Saviour and His words have not Everlasting life.

If you are not Baptized with the Holy Spirit then you are blind being lead by the blind.

Come away from the falsehood of men.. fear not these people who think they guard Truth.. for they have it not to guard.

Be mocked and ejected by those who sit in the darkness... Heavenly Father and the Messiah is above all things and will make their abide with you personally.

Repent and believe the Everlasting Gospel.

feed on His Testimony... then nothing can move you.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
Why the remorse for what he did then?
Because his guilt was eating away at him. He tried to return the blood money (and failed), but he also failed to go to the One he betrayed and ask for his forgiveness.

Genuine repentance should have led him to go to Pontius Pilate and ask to be crucified instead of the Son of Man. The repentant malefactor who was being crucified beside Christ told the unrepentant one that they were being justly punished for their misdeeds. So that would have been the just punishment that Judas should have begged for.

However, that would have overridden God's plan of salvation, so instead Judas hanged himself, since he could no longer live with himself. Of course none of this is revealed in Scripture, but we are simply drawing conclusions from what happened and what could have happened hypothetically.
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
41
48
The key word is son of perdiction. Who the son of perdition is. he was a satan which is a tile for all fallen angels. The leader was the one that entered him. Sounds strange dont it. Where did he come from is unknown but after his job was over he went back
 
Last edited:

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
According to the High Priest there is work to be done.. so ignore the title of this thread and adhere to your Master.

The gift is Everlasting life rewarded based on your works.

Blessed are they that do His Commandments indeed because they are given the right to the Tree of life.


Revelation 22


2And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.




Nothing written goes against this.. it is merely the understanding of those without good foundation that can not recieve the above....

Brothers and Sisters... believe the Messiah... let these not hinder you with falsehood..


 

kaijo

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2017
355
54
28
Think of it "this" way...

When u decide to give up ur old ways... and throw them out the window (admitting to urself that u know NOTHING) and take the new path that He sets for u... then u could consider urself "saved".

Once u are saved... u can consider it... like a "passport" ..or ..."citizenship" ...of the NEW Nation (Heaven).

So now ...when youve "arrived" there.... How much "money" do u have to spend in this New "Country"?

Well... thats where ur "works" come in...

If u do ALOT of "works" while in "this" "Nation" (the world) ... Youll have ALOT of "money" in ur NEW "bank account" in Heaven.

And if u do "Not So Much" works in "this" "Nation" (the world)...then u will have "Not So Much" "money" to "play" with.... in the NEW nation (Heaven).

SOO

Salvation = Citizenship
Works = Earnings

^^"
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
[TABLE="class: passage-cols"]
[TR]
[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"][h=1]1 Peter 1King James Version (KJV)[/h]1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.





Peter writes it beautifully.





[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
I want to know if dc really does stand Teaching at church with a 9 on his hip or was it a joke?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
It it does not contradict scripture.. your understanding maybe.. but not Scripture.
Sure it did.....works are a by product.of salvation and faith that one already possesses...you would have works produce salvation and faith...the ox before the cart...like I said.....so which are you...anglican, catholic or some other working for religion.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
modern application? You are not of Heavenly Father and the Messiah and feel threatened by the Truth. You are an unpleasant man that have not the Love of GOD in Him. You believe not.

This soldier like display may fool some here but those who are His are not deceived by you.

May you Repent and Believe.

modern day Pharisee if ever I saw one.
Hilarious coming from you...and rhose who know me know I am nothing like a working for Pharisee such as yourself....if you cannot handle the heat..........!!