Not By Works

[TruthTalk]

Yes recidivism is high sadly for any addiction back when I worked in the field, I have not kept up on the stats to see what approaches are used now and what are the success rates.

It is totally heartbreaking.

In the end, I saw they were just using a substance, or something else to fill a deep void only Jesus can fill...

On the streets of Detroit I did see some come to a saving knowledge of Jesus through this outreach program, and they formed a gospel choir, it was quite something.

After I made my angry plea to Jesus over and over again, I slowly began to learn to trust in Him. At some point the chains of my acquired addictions were broken and I began to worship Him and surrender my life and all of its problems. Christian music became a way to express my love for the Savior.
Later through our Church we formed a street witnessing group in Los Angeles. Some called us "Jesus Freaks," but we were all compelled by God's Spirit to preach the Gospel; an amazing time in my life, 1978 - I Love Christ centered music, wish I could have heard the gospel choir in Detroit.

 

[Cee]

Might help if you back up a bit....The topic of fruit bearing stops in John 15 at Verse 11....you are quoting verses of how the disciples that bear fruit are to relate to each other....



“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. [SUP]11 [/SUP]These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

I do not disagree that Fruit of the spirit is fruit we bear, but it is not the fruit he talks about here...

I don't think we should simply stop Scripture where we want.

Bearing fruit is loving one another.

Consider Paul. If I know all things, do all things, surrender my body for the flames, but have NOT love. - I am, gain, and profit nothing.

Consider the law: We fulfill the entire law by our love for one another.

Consider Jesus' warning for the end of our life: He compares us to sheep vs goats. Sheep love one another. Goats don't. The goats go to judgment. Sheep go into His eternal joy.

Now let's look at the Scripture deeper:

v9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.

John 15:1-11 Is about Abiding in Jesus, and then in v9 we find, abide in My love. Scripture continues with showing us what it looks like to Abide in His love. Abiding in Him looks like loving one another.

v10 Keeping Jesus commandments is loving one another.
- Believe on the One He sent.
- Love one another as I have loved you.

Let's let Scripture translate itself:

1 John 4:
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. [SUP]12 [/SUP][SUP]q[/SUP]No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. [SUP]13 [/SUP]By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

Scripture is clear:
- If we love one another, God abides in us.
- We know we abide in Him by loving one another.
- It lines up perfectly with the John 15 context afterwards.

John 15 is about abiding in God, 1 John shows us that abiding in God is loving one another.

As do the following Scriptures in John 15:

11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

It is very absolute.

 

[BillG]

After I made my angry plea to Jesus over and over again, I slowly began to learn to trust in Him. At some point the chains of my acquired addictions were broken and I began to worship Him and surrender my life and all of its problems. Christian music became a way to express my love for the Savior. Later through our Church we formed a street witnessing group in Los Angeles Some called us "Jesus Freaks," but we were all compelled by God's Spirit to preach the Gospel; an amazing time in my life, 1978 - I Love Christ centered music, wish I could have heard the gospel choir in Detroit.

At my very worst times all I could do is put on Christian worship.
There really is something powerful in worship.

 

[UnderGrace]

It was truly profound to hear them sing, one I will never forget, they sang from the heart...because they knew so well Who had saved them.

After I made my angry plea to Jesus over and over again, I slowly began to learn to trust in Him. At some point the chains of my acquired addictions were broken and I began to worship Him and surrender my life and all of its problems. Christian music became a way to express my love for the Savior.
Later through our Church we formed a street witnessing group in Los Angeles. Some called us "Jesus Freaks," but we were all compelled by God's Spirit to preach the Gospel; an amazing time in my life, 1978 - I Love Christ centered music, wish I could have heard the gospel choir in Detroit.

 

[TruthTalk]

It was truly profound to hear them sing, one I will never forget, they sang from the heart...because they knew so well who had saved them.

I believe we will be singing His praise for a thousand year's and more, praise God.

 

[Magenta]

As believers I agree that a secular approach is not for us because it is settling for less,

because they offer a program a process,
sometimes it works sometimes does not,

however, we have access to Jesus who is able to break the bonds of sin and bring healing

One thing that many people perhaps do not realize is that the the 12 step program of Alcoholic Anonymous originated with a Christian organization known as the Oxford Group. Bill W and Dr Bob, the co-founders of AA, took their original, fewer in number steps, which are solidly based in Biblical principles, and added to them to flesh them out more. As the program grew from its inception in 1935, traditions, concepts, promises, slogans, etc were added, but the main thing is, that the whole program is designed to help people reconnect with the One Who has all power, and He is very clearly identified as God, though people necessarily have to start where they are, which is often in great darkness and deception, and so the steps always say "God as we understand Him." The working of the steps helps people straighten their path, and honestly reminds me of: John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.'"

It is true that not everyone comes to full blown belief, or even frees themselves of their burdensome addictions, whatever they may be, and tragically some die before the miracle happens, but we learn to rely on what we may at first only call "God" out of convenience, not having any desire to be religious or Christian or Scriptural in any way. God reveals Himself to those who are sincerely seeking. Unfortunately, many programs and recovery houses muddy the waters of the initial intent of the program. Harm reduction may save the lives of some for a while, though the true original purpose of the program was always to save their soul.

 

[Meggido]

I don't think we should simply stop Scripture where we want.

Bearing fruit is loving one another.

Consider Paul. If I know all things, do all things, surrender my body for the flames, but have NOT love. - I am, gain, and profit nothing.

Consider the law: We fulfill the entire law by our love for one another.

Consider Jesus' warning for the end of our life: He compares us to sheep vs goats. Sheep love one another. Goats don't. The goats go to judgment. Sheep go into His eternal joy.

Now let's look at the Scripture deeper:

v9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.

John 15:1-11 Is about Abiding in Jesus, and then in v9 we find, abide in My love. Scripture continues with showing us what it looks like to Abide in His love. Abiding in Him looks like loving one another.

v10 Keeping Jesus commandments is loving one another.
- Believe on the One He sent.
- Love one another as I have loved you.

Let's let Scripture translate itself:

1 John 4:
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. [SUP]12 [/SUP][SUP]q[/SUP]No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. [SUP]13 [/SUP]By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

Scripture is clear:
- If we love one another, God abides in us.
- We know we abide in Him by loving one another.
- It lines up perfectly with the John 15 context afterwards.

John 15 is about abiding in God, 1 John shows us that abiding in God is loving one another.

As do the following Scriptures in John 15:

11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

It is very absolute.

You are simply describing why we should have and then manifest the Fruit of the Spirit Love...and that is an absolute...

go deeper man...what should love or any other fruit of the Spirit produce or create?

 

[BillG]

What I find about worship is the following.

It takes the focus of me and on God.
I realise how great he is, how understanding he is and how much he actually does love me.

Psalms 103:1-17
PSALM 103
Praise for the Lord's Mercies
A Psalm of David.
1 Bless the Lord, O my soul;
And all that is within me, bless His holy name!
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul,
And forget not all His benefits:
3 Who forgives all your iniquities,
Who heals all your diseases,
4 Who redeems your life from destruction,
Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies,
5 Who satisfies your mouth with good things,
So that your youth is renewed like the eagle's.
6 The Lord executes righteousness
And justice for all who are oppressed.
7 He made known His ways to Moses,
His acts to the children of Israel.
8 The Lord is merciful and gracious,
Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
9 He will not always strive with us,
Nor will He keep His anger forever.
10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins,
Nor punished us according to our iniquities.
11 For as the heavens are high above the earth,
So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
12 As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
13 As a father pities his children,
So the Lord pities those who fear Him.
14 For He knows our frame;
He remembers that we are dust.
15 As for man, his days are like grass;
As a flower of the field, so he flourishes.
16 For the wind passes over it, and it is gone,
And its place remembers it no more.
17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting
On those who fear Him,
And His righteousness to children's children,

I used to become for God with fear and condemnation.
I had an earnest desire to meet with him.

But as I did my fear and condemnation overtook and after a few minutes I shut down.
Im a miserable sinner and felt he was telling me that. So walked away with more guilt and condemnation.

When I'm read the above Psalm things started to change.

I then started to apply that to the Lord's Prayer.
I put the focus on him (and I tell you it was really difficult)

I put the focus on him

Our Father, yes you are my Father.
How great is your name, yes your name is great.
Your kingdom come here on earth as it is heaven and your will be done.

I then found myself praying for others who were struggling.

When I got to the "Forgive us our sins" I found myself praising him that I am forgiven.
I confessed my sins but felt so released that actually he understands.

He has not dealt with me according to my sins, he remembers we are made from dust, it is he who remembers my sins no more, removed them as far as the East is from the West.

But is mercy for those who fear him is everlasting.

Yes indeed

Bless the Lord oh my soul and let all that is in me bless his name

 

[TruthTalk]

"Jim’s short life that was filled with the desire to share God’s love can be summed up by a quote that is attributed to him. “He is no fool who gives that which he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose.” Jim's wife Elizabeth Elliot authored a book called; "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael. Worthy reading.
Attribute: Jim Elliot Biography | Story of the man from 'End of The Spear' Movie

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I believe we will be singing His praise for a thousand year's and more, praise God.

I can carry a tune quite well. I can sing a secular song and everyone claps. But I can't sing a song about Jesus. I literally can't do it because I start crying. I get too overcome. I sure do like to listen to others sing about Him though!

 

[BillG]

I can carry a tune quite well. I can sing a secular song and everyone claps. But I can't sing a song about Jesus. I literally can't do it because I start crying. I get too overcome. I sure do like to listen to others sing about Him though!

You cry away let his love and grace for you envolope you.
In your heart you are praising him and that is what he sees.

sshh don't tell anyone (being a man and all that goes with it) but that happens to me as well at times.

I just fall on my knees and the tears flow.

 

[JIMBO43]

You are simply describing why we should have and then manifest the Fruit of the Spirit Love...and that is an absolute...

go deeper man...what should love or any other fruit of the Spirit produce or create?

love of course.. we should produce just like they produced in the old t too by faith..

 

[TruthTalk]

A Psalm of King David

"But He caught me, He reach all the way from sky to sea;
pulled me out of that ocean of hate, that enemy chaos,
the void in which I was drowning. He stood me up on a
wide-open field; I stood there saved, surprised to be
loved." Psalm18​

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

james said all sin, even the smallest sin, makes on guilty of the whole law.

Yo should never judge anyway, and again, there is justifiable anger

But my question was: is my getting angry in my heart at her for her selfishness a justified anger? How so, if any loss of selfishness or growth in virtue I have acquired has not come to me by my goodness or by my trying really hard? So she, being an unbeliever, is supposed to do what I was incapable of doing?

 

[Magenta]

A Psalm of King David

"But He caught me, He reach all the way from sky to sea;
pulled me out of that ocean of hate, that enemy chaos,
the void in which I was drowning. He stood me up on a
wide-open field; I stood there saved, surprised to be
loved." Psalm18​

For what greater gift is there than to discover the love of God?

 

[TruthTalk]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But my question was: is my getting angry in my heart at her for her selfishness a justified anger? How so, if any loss of selfishness or growth in virtue I have acquired has not come to me by my goodness or by my trying really hard? So she, being an unbeliever, is supposed to do what I was incapable of doing?

the things f God are foolishness to a non believer, why should she be expected to do godly things? When they are foolish to her?

 

[BillG]

But my question was: is my getting angry in my heart at her for her selfishness a justified anger? How so, if any loss of selfishness or growth in virtue I have acquired has not come to me by my goodness or by my trying really hard? So she, being an unbeliever, is supposed to do what I was incapable of doing?

ok I am going to ask you a question and it will come across as weird.

Is your mother your friend or your enemy.

You may so no she is my friend or you may so no I feel like she is my enemy.
Either way Jesus has asked us love our friends and our enemies.
As an unbeliever your mother in not capable of what you are seeking to be.
But as a believer you are.

Getting angry in your heart is not the issue as such but it's what you do as it starts to happen in your heart.

Try thinking about it this way.

If Jesus was with your mother what would he do, be and say?

Now I am going to assume that you would know how to answer that.

If I am right then you need to realise something about yourself.

You have Jesus in you, you are his shining light here on earth, that being the case you can be like Jesus.

Now if you are still not getting it and struggling let's keep talking about it.

Just to finish I want to ask one more question, is this only issue with your mother?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

ok I am going to ask you a question and it will come across as weird.

Is your mother your friend or your enemy.

You may so no she is my friend or you may so no I feel like she is my enemy.
Either way Jesus has asked us love our friends and our enemies.
As an unbeliever your mother in not capable of what you are seeking to be.
But as a believer you are.

Getting angry in your heart is not the issue as such but it's what you do as it starts to happen in your heart.

Try thinking about it this way.

If Jesus was with your mother what would he do, be and say?

Now I am going to assume that you would know how to answer that.

If I am right then you need to realise something about yourself.

You have Jesus in you, you are his shining light here on earth, that being the case you can be like Jesus.

Now if you are still not getting it and struggling let's keep talking about it.

Just to finish I want to ask one more question, is this only issue with your mother?

I think...I AM getting it...
And I think I am to love her rather than murder her. I do not think being despitefully or selfishly used by someone justifies my murdering of them.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And to your other question bill - yeah, I think that's the only problem with my mother that I have - my lack of love.