Not By Works

[JIMBO43]

maybe faith is implanted to us at birth ?

 

[Meggido]

I don't recall that Scripture...

John 9.40-41
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” [SUP]41 [/SUP]Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10.1-10
10 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. [SUP]4 [/SUP]When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.



The thief is always misrepresented as the devil in this scripture.....it is also always misrepresented that Jesus was talking to the disciples and them alone in John 10, but the discourse of John 10 is a continuation of the story starting in John 9....The conversation Jesus starts with the Pharisees [religion] in John 9.40 continues all through John 10 and his conversation is with the Pharisees and he condemns the pharisees and their religion in both chapters.....

if we understand who, what and where of the passages, we know that Jesus was talking and defining religion....

 

[JIMBO43]

I mean, has there ever been a time in history where christians ran around literally washing feet?

yes and still to this day...

 

[JIMBO43]

And also, do you think there could be a spiritual meaning to washing one anothers feet that we may not have considered?

it is a kind gesture... and humble... it is also where you find out where peoples hearts are just sayin...

 

[JIMBO43]

I have been to a few "feet washing" were the pastor washes the feet of their congregation...,my daughter got in both lines and had both pastors wash her feet....her being only 4 at the time,they laughed and obliged. Not that many people showed up for it .

I do it last year for the youth in the middle of our Appalachian trail hike. One of the other leaders washed mine...it was a very humbling and spiritual experience to trust someone to wash your feet. It made me better understand why Peter objected to Jesus doing it.

how come you totaly dimissed washing your brothers feet then two pages ago ?

 

[JIMBO43]

And or dogging grace.....................

What did Noah find in God's eyes.........GRACE
What did Saul who became Paul find....GRACE
What do ALL find when they trust Christ.....?

A positioning of Grace......

Romans 5:1-2 <---In the grace wherein we now STAND!

yup what comes first tho ? could it be works ? as ive just shown you no man can come to christ without faith..

 

[Desertsrose]

Spurgeon explains why quick confession should be every saint's practice…

It is not the nature of sin to remain in a fixed state. Like decaying fruit, it grows more rotten. The man who is bad today will be worse tomorrow.​

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace,

Confession and repentance cleanses us because we sinned. That sin is not righteous. The fact that we're declared righteous in Christ, when we sin it's sinful, dirty, ugly. It must be acknowledge as sin or we'll continue on in that sin because it's not being brought into the light. Sin is walking in darkness.

I don't need cleansing to become righteous and I've never heard that teaching and I've been in a few churches, not just one denomination. And even if some teach that, we don't throw the verse away because someone teaches it in error. God's word is precious and righteous.

Repentance brings us back into a right relationship with our Lord. There's something between us when we sin just like there's something between 2 people when they've done something against the other. Until they ask for forgiveness for the sin against them, there will always be a strained relationship.

That's how I feel when I have sinned against someone. I feel bad, I want to make amends, I want to ask for forgiveness and make it right with them. Because I love them and that's what love does.

And that's what John is teaching. Those who are walking in the light will bring their sinful deeds to the light so that they can continue on walking in the light. Stepping into darkness is stepping away from God in our heart. We end up leaving Him and His ways for awhile. We've gotten dirty and need to be washed up. Our actions have not been pure and we need to acknowledge our sin before Him.

In John, he's talking to, "my little children". Not gnostics. If fact all of the NT letters are written to believers.

I'm finding that it's becoming a habit of false teachers to continually take away the scriptures. Old Testament is now gone. Some go as far as to say that they only follow Paul. You have even said that Jesus' teachings are OT. And there are some false teachers that tell you not to bring your bible. I wonder why? Sounds like the enemy is afoot.

In Matthew 28, Jesus said that the apostles would preach the gospel of the kingdom. All of Jesus' teaching in the gospel writings are His teachings about how we are to live in the kingdom. And Jesus said that the apostles would go out into the world to make disciples, that they would baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And Jesus told them to teach the disciples to obey ALL of Jesus' teachings. ALL, not some, but all.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

All scripture is inspired by God. Not just the NT, but All. And when Paul said this he was referring to the OT because there wasn't a NT yet.

Paul spoke of the need for cleansing.
2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

James does as well.
James 4:10 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

I dont know Grace why you were stuck. I've always felt so pure after confessing and never felt stuck. And the bad that I felt when I saw that I sinned was freeing because it brought me right to the feet of Jesus. I went to the only one who would forgive me and had/has the power to change me from within. How can one feel stuck when they go before the Lord of all mercy and all grace?

And maybe you don't confess to be cleansed, but I do. Just as I get dirty in the natural when I work and sweat and get stinky, so it is spiritually as well. I get stinky when I've stepped into sin. A lie, a piece of gossip, an unkind word, wrongful judging, worrying about the cares of the world......whatever it might be, I get dirty and need a bath in the arms of God's redeeming love. That's one part of the manifold beauty of His grace.

As to John talking to gnostics in 1 John - do a search and you will find over 25 websites that say John was addressing gnostics in his letter. But again you are free to believe what you want......

I understand your opinion here as I was taught that too in my Pentecostal church ( I'm sure other denominations hold this view too ) but I don't see that in the new creation that is in Christ which is why I could never replace Christ and what He has done for anything else - no matter how pious it seems to be.

I see us cleansed by the blood of Jesus just like 1 John 1:7 says because we walk in the light. Believers do not go in an out of the light nor does Christ go in and out of us when we give in to the flesh and sin by the deeds of the body whether with our tongue or otherwise.

You are free in Christ to believe how you like. Walk on with your Lord as you see fit within you...

 

[JIMBO43]

Do you ever sit back and read yourself....you are more of a contradiction than EG....

You cannot state out of one side of your mouth, you cannot have imputed righteousness and boast of what the blood of Christ does to your sin and then say you are powerless over sin and continue to call yourslef a sinner saved by grace...

A saint is sin-forgiven child of God that will still sin, but has been given resurrection power not to let SIN have them or dominate them...the fact you so easily call people sinless perfection pharisees proves you have no heart knowledge of what you boast about having....

You and your crew cannot differentiate between a mans condition before salvation and who he is in the eyes of God after conversion....

Condition before Jesus: sinner
Condition after Jesus: new man, saint that will still sin, but has power over sin and is now a slave to righteousness.

You and many here boast of having such a great salvation. but condemn and disqualify yourselves from the very salvation you were freely given, because you identify more with wicked and sinner, than rightoeus and saint...

Who do you identify with in the below Psalm?
The Righteous and the Wicked Contrasted.

1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked,
Nor stand in the path of sinners,
Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
[SUP]2 [/SUP]But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water,
Which yields its fruit in its season
And its leaf does not wither;
And in whatever he does, he prospers.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]The wicked are not so,
But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the wicked will perish.

We will never be sinless and still commit sin...but to say you are sinner after receiving the free gift of salvation and righteousness, means you have only mentally assented to PART of the WHOLE truth of the Gospel...and have not truly been set free...

The false humility you guys carry is putting Jesus to shame and crucifying him all over again....continually gloating you are a sinner, puts Jesus right back on the cross and one day you will give account....Jesus does not have to die every time you need to state to the world you are still a sinner saved by grace...

couldnt have put it any better my self... be careful tho bro the more you post scripture the more you get scoffed at,,,, i think we have to find away for theese workers against to not deny God,,, but what could that be ? coz almost 30000 pages later and ther still denying works for not much really ,,,

 

[Grace777x70]

There is a massive difference between church discipline to protect the people and the Lord sending you to hell as can be seen by the letter Paul said to the 1 Corinthians.

Paul told those minister that were in authority in the local church to deal with those that continue to sin to keep the leaven out of the local church.

This is not for every Tom, Dick and Jane on the internet to slander others in the body of Christ as some think it is because they dis-agree in some area of doctrine.

Paul told the Corinthians who they were in Christ...then corrected their behavior...he didn't say you were all unsaved now or that because they were sinning that they were not born of God like some people try to teach.

( without understanding the new creation in Christ - this "sinning" part will throw people off because they don't understand what is being done by giving in to the flesh and what the new man is Christ really is. )

Paul told them who they were in Christ...Here are 7 things that Paul confirmed as truth in the believers in Corinth before he went on to correct their behavior.


1) The Corinthians have been sanctified in Christ Jesus,

2) The Corinthians were now saints by calling

3) The Corinthians in everything were enriched in Him,

4) The Corinthians had the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in them,

5) The Corinthians had that God will also confirm them to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

6) The Corinthians had that it was by Gods doing that we are in Christ ( Not our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness and holiness )

7) That because the Corinthians were in Christ - Christ Himself became to them wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption


1 Corinthians 1:2-9 (NASB)

[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

[SUP]8 [/SUP] who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,


Preach and teach the grace of Christ as it is the only think that teaches us how to live godly in this world. Titus 2:11-12. The word of His grace is the only thing that is able to build us up and that gives us the inheritance that is ours in Christ. Acts 20:32

 

[Stephen63]

the trouble is stephen not everyone has the authority to rebuke someone in front of a whole church.. coz it could go horribly wrong...and you wouldnt want that in church would you ?

Never said everybody should..... but those empowered to do so, including the apostles, did so by the Spirit of God, otherwise they all did it in their own flesh.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is the kind of stuff Paul was dealing with and He also called the Corinthians that they were his credentials in the ministry.

I believe that the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing when He had Paul write 1 Corinthians.

Some of them were going to temple prostitutes for sex, they were taking each other to court, they were in divisions and strife, they were not treating the poor amongst them right...etc.

Paul was saying that those in Corinth were acting like mere men and men of flesh - in other words not being spiritually minded.

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos,"are you not mere men?


I noticed that in verse 1 Paul says that they are "babes in Christ".

- not that you are going to hell because you are sinning. Or that because they were sinning - that they are not born of God.

Some people and denominations have their loving Father throwing them into hell and the lake of fire because of them being babes in Christ. Religion is just so stupid when you set back and look at it and they say so many things that are contrary to the nature of our Father and Lord.

 

[Stephen63]

As to John talking to gnostics in 1 John - do a search and you will find over 25 websites that say John was addressing gnostics in his letter. But again you are free to believe what you want......

I understand your opinion here as I was taught that too in my Pentecostal church ( I'm sure other denominations hold this view too ) but I don't see that in the new creation that is in Christ which is why I could never replace Christ and what He has done for anything else - no matter how pious it seems to be.

I see us cleansed by the blood of Jesus just like 1 John 1:7 says because we walk in the light. Believers do not go in an out of the light nor does Christ go in and out of us when we give in to the flesh and sin by the deeds of the body whether with our tongue or otherwise.

You are free in Christ to believe how you like. Walk on with your Lord as you see fit within you...

25 websites..... all hypergrace, I suppose?

 

[Grace777x70]

There are over 25 websites that speak of 1 John addressing gnostics in his letter.

Here are some.

Intro to 1 John — Biblica

Gnosticism

One of the most dangerous heresies of the first two centuries of the church was Gnosticism. Its central teaching was that spirit is entirely good and matter is entirely evil

Here's another:

Gnosticism - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

4. 1 John:
In the First Epistle of John there is a distinct polemical purpose. There is no book of the New Testament which is more purposeful in its attack of error. There is "the spirit of error" (1John 4:6), opposing the Spirit of truth. "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1John 4:1), and this from the church itself, "They went out from us, but they were not of us" (1John 2:19); and these false prophets are distinctly named "the antichrist" (1John 2:22) and "the liar" (same place), and "the deceiver and the antichrist" (2John 1:7).

This peril, against which the apostle writes, and from which he seeks to defend the church, was Gnosticism, as is proved by what is said again and again in the epistle of the characteristics of this insidious and deadly teaching.

And another:

https://carm.org/gnosticism

And another:

scripture

And another:

https://www.biblicaltraining.org/lib...pistles-john-

Historical setting

EARLIEST GNOSTIC TENDENCIES.

Many writers have concluded that incipient Gnosticism (not identifiable historically until the 2nd cent. a.d.) was in the background of several NT books, such as Colossians, Ephesians, the pastoral epistles, the Petrine epistles and Jude, but esp. 1 John.

The most advanced stage of Gnosticism that appeared in the background of the NT was reflected in the writing of 1 John. Gnosticism, a popular form of Graeco-Roman philosophy, had no doubt pervaded the thought world of the Rom. empire by a.d. 150 and, confronting Christianity in the latter decades of the 1st cent., had produced serious conflict and confusion within the churches.


​

Anyway - I could go on and on because there are over 25 of them - so it is obvious that many believe 1 John was written to address the gnostic beliefs that were trying to infiltrate the church.

Here we go around the mulberry bush again but here is the post that shows just a few of them if anyone is interested. People are free to believe hat they want.....

 

[Stephen63]

Here is the kind of stuff Paul was dealing with and He also called the Corinthians that they were his credentials in the ministry.

I believe that the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing when He had Paul write 1 Corinthians.

Some of them were going to temple prostitutes for sex, they were taking each other to court, they were in divisions and strife, they were not treating the poor amongst them right...etc.

Paul was saying that those in Corinth were acting like mere men and men of flesh - in other words not being spiritually minded.

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos,"are you not mere men?


I noticed that in verse 1 Paul says that they are "babes in Christ".

- not that you are going to hell because you are sinning. Or that because they were sinning - that they are not born of God.

Some people and denominations have their loving Father throwing them into hell and the lake of fire because of them being babes in Christ. Religion is just so stupid when you set back and look at it and they say so many things that are contrary to the nature of our Father and Lord.

No place in 1 or 2 Corinthians does it say anything about the members visiting temple prostitutes. You must have made that up.

 

[BillG]

I can get behind you what you are trying to say here...and agree with the larger issue.

Jesus defined religion as a thief that comes to steal, kill and destroy....

If a grace pastor-teacher says it is not against the Bible to drink beer, wine and hard liquor and it will not send you to hell.... and in addition to this, the grace pastor-teacher actively drinks and that pastor-teacher is seen by congregation member 1 and congregation member 1 follows their pastor-teacher example and congregation member 1 starts drinking and then over time develops a problem and dependence on alcohol...and he hides the issue and the continued use of it becomes abusive to those around congregation member 1 and it steals his spirit, kills his relationships and destroys his life....

Who is responsible the outcome of congregation member 1?

Could one argue that grace was perverted in this example and a form of religion manifested to steal, kill and destroy someones life?

Therefore could perverted grace be a form of religion as bad as someone saying drinking any form or amount of alcohol wills end you to hell?


We need need be careful what we call religion/legalism in the church...

Saying certain things like drinking and not tithing sends you automatically to hell or that Jesus never drank alcoholic wine is religion/legalism...

Telling someone they should not get drunk with wine, because that leads to excess, but be filled with the Spirit.....is truth and grace, resulting in progressive-sanctification

I have seen first hand that people in the church that want to excuse their drunkenness/moderate to heavy drinking, yell religion and legalism....more social and responsible drinkers are harder to discern because and I add rightfully so, you did not even know they drank...

Evening Megiddo my friend.

You seem to raise a point that to be honest focuses on alcohol but to be honest I think it can be taken further.
It seems to me the biggie is the booze.

I think for me the issue is not what Pastor says as such (as long what they preach is so far off the wall)
With regards to member number 1 they are responsible for the choice they make and so is the pastor.

If member number 1 develops and the pastor also develops a problem then to me the issue is not what a pastor teaches but is probably due to stuff in their life that they mask with alcohol, or shopping or gluttony and dare I add seeking affirmation through sexual immorality.

To me those who excuse whatever they do that controls them probably do so because they have issues underneath that need dealing with.

I am not disagreeing with what you have said just wanting to take it a bit deeper, as I always do.

Alas there are those who really struggle with stuff and mask it by whatever takes their mind of it and when challenged they get defensive. That is where we need love, compassion and wisdom.

Also at the end of the day if we come alongside someone with issues and meet up with them let's ensure that whilst with them not to do anything that we consider ok.

So going back to alcohol, if we know someone has a problem with this then when we come alongside and walk with them then clear the fridge.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus always chastened or rebuked the disciples for their hardness of heart and their unbelief. Personally I think He lets the natural consequences of sin take over and finally some of us see the foolishness that we are doing as the prodigal son parable shows.

The Holy Spirit is always teaching us about Christ and the things of God. He always points to the work and person of Christ.

That is what separates a believer from a non believer,

a non non believer just suffers natural consequences, a believer suffers them PLUS are chastened by God. That way we know we are children of God,

 

[UnderGrace]

Sometimes I take the opposite view just to see how it works, if sin confession is necessary then we are not forgiven/cleansed/sanctified for sins we don’t confess?

Our view is temporal but God's is eternal and all our individual sins were forgive 2000 years ago, sins we do not know we are going to do and sins we are unaware of along with what we are convicted of, already forgiven, it gives one pause to remember this.

As to John talking to gnostics in 1 John - do a search and you will find over 25 websites that say John was addressing gnostics in his letter. But again you are free to believe what you want......

I understand your opinion here as I was taught that too in my Pentecostal church ( I'm sure other denominations hold this view too ) but I don't see that in the new creation that is in Christ which is why I could never replace Christ and what He has done for anything else - no matter how pious it seems to be.

I see us cleansed by the blood of Jesus just like 1 John 1:7 says because we walk in the light. Believers do not go in an out of the light nor does Christ go in and out of us when we give in to the flesh and sin by the deeds of the body whether with our tongue or otherwise.

You are free in Christ to believe how you like. Walk on with your Lord as you see fit within you...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If grace is always received before it is deserved....

grace will never be deserved. Thus it will always be received before it is deserved.

Everyone would be saved and Jesus would not have needed to die....

Grace is appropriated through personal faith of what Jesus did and did alone for us...until faith comes by hearing the Word, grace is waiting....not freely given.....

We are saved by grace, through faith....


we are not saved by grace............

we are saved by grace through faith, (faith is not a work, you can not earn salvation b having faith unless faith is in self)

you have two choices man, grace or works, there is no other option.

 

[Grace777x70]

Sometimes I take the opposite view just to see how it works, if sin confession is necessary then we are not forgiven/cleansed/sanctified for sins we don’t confess?

Our view is temporal but God's is eternal and all our individual sins were forgive 2000 years ago, sins we do not know we are going to do and sins we are unaware of along with what we are convicted of, already forgiven, it gives one pause to remember this.

Yes...the natural religious mind of man and the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ are in constant conflict. The natural mind of man cannot see the things of Christ and always stumbles at the Stone - Christ Himself.

But the Lord is changing all of that for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear. God grant us repentance to see Christ Himself and all that He has already done. He is our life, our righteousness, our wisdom, our sanctification and our redemption.