Not By Works

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eternally-gratefull

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TruthTalk said:
"Morning Thoughts"
Written by: Octavius Winslow


​
The immutability of God forms a stable foundation
of comfort for the believing soul. Mutability marks
everything outside of God. Look . . .
into the church,
into the world,
into our families,
into ourselves,
what innumerable changes do we see on every hand!
A week, one short day, what alterations does it
produce! Yet, in the midst of it all, to repose calmly
on the unchangeableness, the faithfulness of God.


To know that no alterations of time, no earthly changes,
affect His faithfulness to His people. And more than this;
no changes in them, no unfaithfulness of theirs, causes
the slightest change in God. Once a Father, always a
Father; once a Friend, always a Friend.


His providences may change, His heart cannot.


He is a God of unchangeable love. Peace then, tried
believer! Are you passing now through the deep waters?
Who kept you from sinking when wading through the last?
Who brought you through the last fire?
Who supported you under the last cross?
Who delivered you out of the last temptation?
Was it not God, your faithful, unchangeable God?


This God, then, is your God now, and your God forever
and ever! And He will be your guide even unto death!


"His providence's may change, His heart cannot"


Written by: Octavius Winslow​



​
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oh if we just would trust God and stop trusting ourself.. What great power could flow through us.
 
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UnderGrace

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Salvation is personally believing on the work of the cross and accepting HIS work on your behalf. (and to use a Dcon phrase end of story!!)

Salvation is an eternal gift to those who believe that Jesus bore their sins and made restitution for us.

Because of Adam's work we all died, sin entered into the world.

He did this because our works are as filthy rags and can never compensate for the sin we inherited through Adam.


Stunnedbygrace said:
Salvation is through trusting Him. Abiding is continuing in that trust.
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BillG

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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Cee said:
What is a good work?

Is it not either:

1) Loving one another
2) Loving God

From a Scriptural standpoint what empowers us to love Him and one another?

His love for us, His forgiveness for us, and His Spirit in us.

He is the effect we are the result.

So, then why are we sitting here focusing on works?

Galatians 3:3 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Please note Paul's focus is on RECEIVING the SPIRIT. Not even simply, "getting saved". That's the issue I see here if we don't understand the power of what Christ did fully, completely, and with finality. We are probably not actually doing any good works we are probably performing dead works. It is by entering through faith, that we enter into rest, and this is what pleases God.

His Work pleases Him. Us abiding in His work pleases Him. Focusing on Him pleases Him. Believing He is good pleases Him.

The very fact these appearing to be "works focused" Scriptures exist in the New Testament shows us that true Christians do struggle, but the focus isn't that you need to work, but the focus is that you need to ensure you have faith.

In essence:

Take your focus off earthly things and put it on Heavenly things.
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So true,

A good work is loving God and loving one another.
The reason it is a good work is because we do it out of love for God and what he has done for us and we want others to see that same love that he has for them.
It brings glory to God, reveals the Father.
Jesus said "If you have seen me you have seen the Father, he and I are one"

When we lose the focus of love then we stop doing good works or any works we do can be for self glorification and there will be no love in that.

That I think this was the problem for the loveless church.

Jesus commended them for their works but had this against them

"You have lost your first love"

Their initial works were based on love, love for God and love for others.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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Stunnedbygrace said:
You aren't being fair to her, EG.
She further expounded on what her intent was when she said "works keep us saved." You refuse to see it or give her a chance to further explain herself? She expounded on what had caused such a tizzy by saying: Works are required for salvation IN THE SENSE THAT if we are abiding/trusting, we WILL have good works.And when I pointed this out to you, your reply was to say that she could say it till she was blue in the face but that it isn't what she really believes. So aren't you guilty here of the same accusations that rile you up when you say you keep being told what you believe DESPITE answering many times that you do NOT believe what it is being said you believe? Aren't you doing the same thing to her that gets you yourself fumed up?
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Fair?

She is not being fair to herself. If she believed that those who have faith WILL WORK like she said, she would not focus on work, She would not be afraid of people being saved and not doing anything, because she would know that was impossible. She would focus on winning lost souls. and not trying to figure out who is saved and who is not saved. She would stop focusing on works, and start focusing on how God is a God we can trust, We can follow. We can have assurance in, We can KNOW that God will keep his word. He loves us, He is faithful. If someone loses faith in God is that on us? Maybe his discipler or his pastor to try to find out what is going on personally. But what is it to fran or me or anyone else

You do not go to a group of people and preach works, You go to people and preach God and the cross and him crucified, and how we are sinners, lost with no hope. But God in his infinite wisdom and power sent his son to die on the cross. that whoever has faith will be born again, Raised to new life, HAS eternal life, Will never hunger and never thirst. And give Gods assurance and seal he will raise them on the last day.

This is the Hope that God offers the world. If we have to work for it, it is not hope, because God shows us, no amount of work we can do will save us.

Then the person can learn to grow in the knowledge that there is a reason for life, The whole in his life he has been trying to fill with the things of the world which NEVER satisfied is now satisfied. That God is faithful, That even when things go Bad, God is in control. Then we can teach them how to grow in Christ, how to learn to trust God in other areas of our life where we struggle. Not worried if they do works or not (they will do work if they are saved)

Let God worry about his faith, We will never convince a person God is faithfull and a God to be trusted Only God can do that.

so no. I am being fair, I am stating the truth. If she truly believed we were saved by faith, and ALL who have faiht wil lhave works, SHE WOULD NEVER say works are required.. PERIOD!
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
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Nov 12, 2015
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UnderGrace said:
Salvation is personally believing on the work of the cross and accepting HIS work on your behalf. (and to use a Dcon phrase end of story!!)

Salvation is an eternal gift to those who believe that Jesus bore their sins and made restitution for us.

Because of Adam's work we all died, sin entered into the world.

He did this because our works are as filthy rags and can never compensate for the sin we inherited through Adam.
Click to expand...

Yes, as I said, salvation is through trusting Him. Abiding is continuing in that trust. If we continue in that trust/abide, we will bear much fruit.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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UnderGrace said:
Nope, we may or may not have good works and still be saved.
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To rephrase,

we will have good work. but there may be times in our life we have no work, yet we will still be saved (if we were to begin with)
 
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UnderGrace

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Salvation is by faith, it is an act of belief. One cannot trust before belief.

Stunnedbygrace said:
Yes, as I said, salvation is through trusting Him. Abiding is continuing in that trust. If we continue in that trust/abide, we will bear much fruit.
Click to expand...
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#25,848
#25,848
BillG said:
So true,

A good work is loving God and loving one another.
The reason it is a good work is because we do it out of love for God and what he has done for us and we want others to see that same love that he has for them.
It brings glory to God, reveals the Father.
Jesus said "If you have seen me you have seen the Father, he and I are one"

When we lose the focus of love then we stop doing good works or any works we do can be for self glorification and there will be no love in that.

That I think this was the problem for the loveless church.

Jesus commended them for their works but had this against them

"You have lost your first love"

Their initial works were based on love, love for God and love for others.
Click to expand...

Amen a good work is focused on serving others, out of the abundunce of love God has shown us, and demands nothing in return

A self righteous work is a work done to gain something for self. because we feel we have to take care of self. and always demands or expects somethign in return.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#25,850
#25,850
Stunnedbygrace said:
Yes, as I said, salvation is through trusting Him. Abiding is continuing in that trust. If we continue in that trust/abide, we will bear much fruit.
Click to expand...

Yet that fruit will not save us, or has anything to do with our future state, It is a result of being saved.

A non child of God can not bare fruit, A child of God can bear fruit, or not, if not, God will prune him, so he does bear fruit..

God can not prune a non believer, he has ot be attached to the vine first, and only God has that power.
 
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UnderGrace

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#25,851
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Amen EG.....we contend for the faith the true pure gospel in Christ Jesus.

We have to guard it constantly, history shows time and time again that we must be vigilant.



eternally-gratefull said:

Fair?

She is not being fair to herself. If she believed that those who have faith WILL WORK like she said, she would not focus on work, She would not be afraid of people being saved and not doing anything, because she would know that was impossible. She would focus on winning lost souls. and not trying to figure out who is saved and who is not saved. She would stop focusing on works, and start focusing on how God is a God we can trust, We can follow. We can have assurance in, We can KNOW that God will keep his word. He loves us, He is faithful. If someone loses faith in God is that on us? Maybe his discipler or his pastor to try to find out what is going on personally. But what is it to fran or me or anyone else

You do not go to a group of people and preach works, You go to people and preach God and the cross and him crucified, and how we are sinners, lost with no hope. But God in his infinite wisdom and power sent his son to die on the cross. that whoever has faith will be born again, Raised to new life, HAS eternal life, Will never hunger and never thirst. And give Gods assurance and seal he will raise them on the last day.

This is the Hope that God offers the world. If we have to work for it, it is not hope, because God shows us, no amount of work we can do will save us.

Then the person can learn to grow in the knowledge that there is a reason for life, The whole in his life he has been trying to fill with the things of the world which NEVER satisfied is now satisfied. That God is faithful, That even when things go Bad, God is in control. Then we can teach them how to grow in Christ, how to learn to trust God in other areas of our life where we struggle. Not worried if they do works or not (they will do work if they are saved)

Let God worry about his faith, We will never convince a person God is faithfull and a God to be trusted Only God can do that.

so no. I am being fair, I am stating the truth. If she truly believed we were saved by faith, and ALL who have faiht wil lhave works, SHE WOULD NEVER say works are required.. PERIOD!
Click to expand...
 
A

Ariel82

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UnderGrace said:
Abiding is not salvation. Salvation is a singular event and works are not involved.
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Being born again is a singular event but salvation is a lifetime occurrence that involves us abiding in Christ and walking with Him.

What are we being saved from if not our sin and rebellion to God?

What are we being saved for if not to abide and walk with Him?

Salvation is having an intimate loving relationship with God. Jesus died to restore that relationship.

So while I agree that being born again only happens once. Salvation is more than being born again...it is learning to walk with God and becoming mature and rooted in Christ.
 
BillG

BillG

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eternally-gratefull said:
Amen a good work is focused on serving others, out of the abundunce of love God has shown us, and demands nothing in return

A self righteous work is a work done to gain something for self. because we feel we have to take care of self. and always demands or expects somethign in return.
Click to expand...
I don't know what your thoughts are but if any work that's done in love to build on Jesus (for us and for others) is therefore a bad work.

Such works will be burnt up but we ourselves will still saved.

Interseted to hear your thoughts and anyone else's
 
J

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Grace777x70 said:
We are sons and daughters of our loving Father and we are participating in the "family business" of showing the love and grace our father and Lord have for others.

We "get to do good works" because His life is in us now - but they are not for salvation nor for maintaining being saved. That's an anti-Christ belief system that is simply a works-based self-righteousness belief system that denies the very work of Christ.

An example of "good works" are when we encourage people to actually believe what Jesus has said and what He has already done. It is a good work to encourage Christians to believe that He alone has obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12

Right believing in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection and that we too have died with Him and rose to newness of life - will bring right thinking ( repentance ) which will manifest in His life being seen in our lives outwardly as His fruit is borne on us the branches.

This is what produces real godliness based on Christ alone by grace through faith.

Without Him - we can do nothing.

It is a "good work" to encourage people to trust that He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it. (Phil. 1:6)

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians to believe that we are new creations in Christ ( 2 Cor. 5:17 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians that Christ alone is our wisdom, our righteousness and our sanctification and our redemption. ( 1 Cor. 1:30 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians to believe that we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection and no amount of good works can save us nor "keep us saved". Christ alone is the Savior of the world - especially of believers. ( Eph. 2:8-19 & 1 Tim. 4:10 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians that we will walk in the good works that God has already prepare for us to walk in as His life becomes manifested in and through us to reveal the love and grace of our loving Father and our Lord has for others. ( Eph. 2:10 & Phil. 2:13 )

It is a "good work" for us to encourage Christians that we are safe in the hands of the Lord and we who truly believe have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and He will be in us forever - just like Jesus said. ( Eph. 1:13, 4:20 & John 14:16 )

It is also a "good work" to remind Christians that there is a warning for not relying on the life of Christ in us for life and living while on this earth.

All the works of the flesh will bring destruction in this life of some sort - whether living the homosexual lifestyle or the exhibiting of malice, outbursts of anger, deceitfulness or the slandering of others in the body of Christ.

Fail to rely on the grace of God that is only in Christ's finished work and trying to do things in our own flesh will not get us in this life to experience the life of Christ that is in our inner man of the heart where Christ dwells and where we are in the kingdom of God.

The warning scriptures are needed and to be heeded - once the proper foundation of Christ and His finished work are firmly established in the hearts and minds of us Christians. From there - then the warning scriptures will have their proper place.

But the firm foundation is Christ Himself and you can no more lose the redemption that is in Christ then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

We are beloved children of our loving Father and He will not throw His beloved children into hell and the lake of fire because they don't do enough "good works".

Where there is "security" - there are the nutrients for "maturity". Let's believe what Christ has said and what He has already done for us and grow in the grace and knowledge of Him.
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yep good work is not for salvation, but bad work is for hell. It is hard to believe for a man having faith in Jesus and killing every day
 
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Cee

Cee

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I might differ with a few people on this thread with what I'm about to say. And that's perfectly okay, iron sharpens iron.

But, I personally see and believe that the focus of Scriptures about Salvation isn't to be saved, but to call out to Him as Lord.

As I look at salvation Scriptures I notice a pattern, "if you call out to the Lord you shall be saved."

Or, "If you confess Him as Lord".

Or those who "believe" in Me, this word for believe (pisteau) in the Greek is very closely linked with trust or being persuaded. From my research pisteau is a lot about which "voice is more real to you" who are you being lead by Him or the world. Consider Peter walking on water.

In essence I believe Salvation is a result of calling Him our Lord. And the moment we call Him Lord we declare we will trust in Him. And everything is a fruit of what He does in us, we die to the old, and live to Him. He gets the glory.
 
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Ariel82

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Stunnedbygrace said:
This doesn't make sense to me. My mind can't grasp it. I mean, yes, I understand the thief on the cross died immediately after believing in our Lord. But had he survived and then not become anything even remotely like our Lord, he would not be continuing in that trust. Because if we abide, we will be fruitful. That's a promise. If we continue in trust we will be fruitful. We will bear fruit and become more and more fruitful, more and more like our Lord - gentle, peaceful and peaceloving, more humble, patient, etc. It's a PROMISE from Him that if we abide we will bear much fruit. I don't understand why any argument is necessary over this promise...it sounds to me like you are saying, nope, if we continue in trust/abide we may or may not bear any fruit and it seems to be arguing against the promise He made. I'm not saying this is what is in your head, I'm saying what I think I'm hearing by what you say.
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I think the point being made is that you cant judge others salvation or your own based on how much fruit you bear...,God doesn't love you more or less because of good works.

.you don't do things to EARN God's love but as an expression of the love you get from God to others.

It helps people who never feel that they can measure up to the standards set to realize that God loves them where they are and as long as they try their best, then that is all God asks of them. Sometimes God asks them to stop trying so hard and rest in His love.
 
J

Jackson123

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Cee said:
I might differ with a few people on this thread with what I'm about to say. And that's perfectly okay, iron sharpens iron.

But, I personally see and believe that the focus of Scripture isn't to be saved, but to call out to Him as Lord.

As we look at salvation Scriptures we notice a pattern, if you call out the Lord you shall be saved. Those who "believe" in Me, this word for believe (pisteau) in the Greek is very closely linked with trust or being persuaded. From my research it is a lot about which "voice is more real to you" who are you being lead by Him or the world.

In essence I believe Salvation is a result of calling Him our Lord. And the moment we call Him Lord we declare we will trust in Him.
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so you want to say, believe is doing what He want, and how do you know His Will? If you not focus to study scripture
 
Cee

Cee

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Jackson123 said:
so you want to say, believe is doing what He want, and how do you know His Will? If you not focus to study scripture
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Yes we read Scripture to get to know Him. And He leads us by His Spirit.
 
J

Jackson123

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Ariel82 said:
I think the point being made is that you cant judge others salvation or your own based on how much fruit you bear...,God doesn't love you more or less because of good works.

.you don't do things to EARN God's love but as an expression of the love you get from God to others.

It helps people who never feel that they can measure up to the standards set to realize that God loves them where they are and as long as they try their best, then that is all God asks of them. Sometimes God asks them to stop trying so hard and rest in His love.
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I believe God love more to people WHO does His Will. And His Will is to love other/ bear fruit.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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BillG said:
I don't know what your thoughts are but if any work that's done in love to build on Jesus (for us and for others) is therefore a bad work.

Such works will be burnt up but we ourselves will still saved.

Interseted to hear your thoughts and anyone else's
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i always like to use an example,

if if I am serving the poor, I give lots of money, I help serve food and help provide shelter, I am doing something God has asked me to do, so basically, it should be a good work,

however, let's look at it closely,

if I am doing it hoping to please God and by it and other works hoping it will get me into heaven, it is a bloody rag which will be rejected by God,

if i am saved, and I do it because God blessed me with money to serve, time to serve and the freedoms to serve others, so I want to share what God has given to me and serve others, it is considered a work and will be rewarded (although I did not do it nor would I expect a reward)

If i am saved, yet I do it expecting to get praise of men, be told what a great person. Am, and to get noticed, it is a work of th flesh and will get burnt as wood hay or straw,

Does this make sense?

 
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