Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I find it difficult that
Christians feel a need to hide their identities from other Christians.
What are they hiding?
What are they afraid of?
Do they carried concealed weapons where ever they go?
Do they stay hidden in their homes?
Or is there more to it than that?

I made the mistake of letting people know what church I went to. Next thing I know my church was attacked by people who had never even been there. I will not make that mistake again, and suggest no one else does either.

When I was a baptist. people had alot of general terms and assumptions of what I believed, because there are so many different types of baptist churches, and they all do not believe the same. so I stopped saying I was baptist so people would not assume. (yes it God that bad)

I think MMD has shared his belief on CC enough we know what his true faiht is in, Knowing what church he is going to will not help us understand him any better.

 

[FranC]

I'm not surprised that you defend him and if you don't use the internet, why are you on Christian Chat?

See. You really do not understand people.

We were talking about websites that teach about Christianity, like for instance the SDA's.
I said I like to read my bible
Study theology
go to a mainline Church
and I do not use the internet.

NOW:..
is it not clear what I meant?
I DO NOT use the internet for Christian STUDY.

Do you think I'm dumb?
Do you think I don't know I'm on the internet right now?

DO YOU EVER LISTEN OR UNDERSTAND PEOPLE???

I don't think so or we wouldn't be where we are...
Christianity 101.

 

[Grace777x70]

There are always new viewers to the thread so I will post again about "good works" in light of Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

All religions - including the religion of Christianity ( as there is a religion like this that tries to mimic the life of Christ ) - are really manifesting that they are eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which has been set lose in this earth by Adam's transgression.

They are basing their life on what they do or don't do. They are attempting to establish their own righteousness by what they do or don't do. Good works are an example of this.

We see the "descriptions" in the words and actions of Jesus and in the epistles of what the true Christian life looks like when Christ's life and His fruit are being manifested. The religion of Christianity then takes these "descriptions" and tries to "dictate" to the believers the life of Christ or the fruit of the Spirit into being.

In essence they are trying to mimic or duplicate the life and fruit of Christ and at the same time "demanding" that others do the same thing or else they are not saved. The true Christian life is Christ Himself joined as one spirit with us manifesting His love, His grace, His life in and through us. It is His fruit - without Him we can do nothing.

All works-based - works-righteousness belief systems ( including the religion of Christianity ) have this as their core essence and it really nullifies the true grace of God from operating in our lives like it should.

This is the "why" behind when people say we must do "good works". That is what the fruit brings behind the work-for-salvation mindset and to maintain and create righteousness.

The reality is - as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ will manifest itself in the doing of good works as the fruit of being in union with Him.

We do good works because it is a fruit of being in union with Christ not "to be saved" Christ alone is our Savior.

Preach and teach the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and Christians will have the proper nutrients to walk out what already is within them - which is Christ in us - the hope of glory.

We live by His life in us now - Christ Himself is that tree of life. Notice it is not the "knowledge of the tree of life" ( like it is with the other tree - the knowledge of good and evil ). We live by His life now.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

im starting to think some people here just love to argue....



quick show of hands



who thinks they save themself according to their works?

 

[FranC]

Fran,
The early church fathers and historical writers of the first century, not to mention the apostles, all spoke of the believers getting together to break bread (and worship, we presume) on the first day of the week... the day that Christ rose from the dead....

The RCC didn't start that practice, they continued it.

Hey Hornetguy,

The Apostles belonged to The Way.
About 20 years later the CHURCH took the name Catholic Church.

We'd have to get into Apostolic succession here. I'm willing.

§The ONLY Church that existed at the time of the Apostles was the Catholic Church.
They broke bread on the first day of the week.
John 20:21

I did bring this up.
The big boys here try to tear me down...
but so far I'm holding up.
No problem.
I know my history and I know whom I have believed...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hey Hornetguy,

The Apostles belonged to The Way.
About 20 years later the CHURCH took the name Catholic Church.

We'd have to get into Apostolic succession here. I'm willing.

§The ONLY Church that existed at the time of the Apostles was the Catholic Church.
They broke bread on the first day of the week.
John 20:21

I did bring this up.
The big boys here try to tear me down...
but so far I'm holding up.
No problem.
I know my history and I know whom I have believed...

the catholic church as we know it did not exist until the 3rd century AD, The church in Pauls day looked nothing like the roman church.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

im starting to think some people here just love to argue....



quick show of hands



who thinks they save themself according to their works?

You will get no one to raise their hands, But if we really look at what they are saying,, some should.. but they will not..

and I agree, by the way some answer, I think some just like to argue.

 

[FranC]

Fran,
The early church fathers and historical writers of the first century, not to mention the apostles, all spoke of the believers getting together to break bread (and worship, we presume) on the first day of the week... the day that Christ rose from the dead....

The RCC didn't start that practice, they continued it.

BTW,
It's not correct to call it the Roman Catholic Church.
It's called The Catholic Church.

Roman is a rite.
Like, for instance, the Latin Rite.
It's a way of saying the Mass, how some wording is different and how Communion is received.

The very early writings don't mention a day for worship.
I refer to the Didache, for instance.

But this is a Whole study and, quite frankly, I don't remember it.
I do know FOR SURE, that the Catholic Church instituted Sunday as the day of Worship due to
Apostolic succession.

 

[tourist]

im starting to think some people here just love to argue....



quick show of hands



who thinks they save themself according to their works?

You will get no one to raise their hands, But if we really look at what they are saying,, some should.. but they will not..

and I agree, by the way some answer, I think some just like to argue.

Maybe we should all just clap our hands.

"If you're happy and you know it clap your hands..."

 

[Grace777x70]

If we could stop sinning or start loving others from a sheer act of our will there would be no need for Christ to come because all we would have to do is keep all the commandments that Moses put down for us by our own will-power.

In the natural the fruit of our own self-will and the fruit of our righteousness in Christ and His life in us effecting the change look alike outwardly.

( the same as Abraham's self-effort in his flesh produced a son outwardly )

Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God from his own self-effort but God only recognizes what comes from His work in us - no flesh shall glory in His presence.

When Abraham gave up and just believed that God would fulfill His promise - then God gave him and Sarah the ability to have a son after their own natural ability was gone.

So, they just went about living naturally...had sex and God's promise came into being...a natural outflow of them just living....the son of promise came then. God's fruit in them being produced.

All Christians agree what the "fruit" of the life of God looks like. But does it come by us producing the fruit or by relying on the root..which for us Christians is Christ's life in us. ( the whole He is the vine.....His life is the sap that flows out of us because we are the branches thing )

Sometimes we see what the fruit should look like and we say to people....."produce" this fruit..or else you are not saved.

An orange tree is still an orange tree even before it manifests what we would see outwardly as an actual "orange".

Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit which is not something we produce in our own flesh or will-power just by choosing to stop something. It can last for a bit but eventually we all give in because our flesh is weak.

I think choosing by an act of our will is involved in both circumstances. For it is God who is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13

Choosing to change by our will power and living from the life of Christ both involve the will.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

You will get no one to raise their hands, But if we really look at what they are saying,, some should.. but they will not..

can we at least agree OUR works mean nothing

but the Workings of the Holy Spirit in us cause us to practice righteousness



i just dont see how this is over 1200 pages



very few are being gentle and patient

i see mainly passive aggression and hidden grudges


which is exactly what God says not to do...

where are the peace makers?

 

[UnderGrace]

Not I.... Not saved according to my works but according the work and victory of Christ Jesus. Easy peasy!!

im starting to think some people here just love to argue....



quick show of hands



who thinks they save themself according to their works?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Maybe we should all just clap our hands.

"If you're happy and you know it clap your hands..."

there he is!


lol hey

mornin' brother

 

[FranC]

It has a name, but I'm not giving out personal information to it's location. It's not a secret society. It's a Christian church, that is similar to a Baptist church. My church does not deny the Deity of Christ or teach salvation by works. My church also does not get hung up on legalistic prescriptions.

Baptist.
OSAS. Not biblical.

Doesn't teach salvation by works: Liberal. Was Jesus a liberal? JESUS SAID: IF you are my friend, you will OBEY my
commandments.

Sounds like there were some commandments to obey.

Doesn't deny the Deity of Christ: Whew!

 

[hornetguy]

Hey Hornetguy,

The Apostles belonged to The Way.
About 20 years later the CHURCH took the name Catholic Church.

We'd have to get into Apostolic succession here. I'm willing.

§The ONLY Church that existed at the time of the Apostles was the Catholic Church.
They broke bread on the first day of the week.
John 20:21

I did bring this up.
The big boys here try to tear me down...
but so far I'm holding up.
No problem.
I know my history and I know whom I have believed...

I don't necessarily want to get into the apostolic succession belief (which I do NOT share)... we could start another thread on it, I suppose...

I don't know all the details of how/why the "church" morphed into the RCC... I have some general ideas, having to do with a representative form of organization, or governance of the church, but I certainly haven't studied it very thoroughly. I'm sure you know a LOT more about it than I do, having come out of the RCC.

And, I AM a member of the catholic church (small c)... the universal church, Christ's church... the one the apostles were a part of.

I have never been a member of the ROMAN catholic church, and could not be.... their beliefs have been so twisted over time that I could not, in good conscience, be a willing professor of that....

 

[Rosemaryx]

im starting to think some people here just love to argue....



quick show of hands



who thinks they save themself according to their works?

Oh please can i raise my toes as well , not to the saving works but to the first comment, thank you ...I know what you mean, it sometimes feels that the thread is on a round about, we jump off, go to lunch, have a coffee, do other things, go to sleep, wake up , pop back in and it`s still going round and round, but as i say that, i must admit, i have learned a little from many, checking with Scripture of coarse ...xox...

 

[UnderGrace]

That was the OP, so there is no agreement since people argued against it from the start.

There is no peace with a false doctrine of works and it is not a personal attack to say so.

can we at least agree OUR works mean nothing

but the Workings of the Holy Spirit in us cause us to practice righteousness



i just dont see how this is over 1200 pages



very few are being gentle and patient

i see mainly passive aggression and hidden grudges


which is exactly what God says not to do...

where are the peace makers?

 

[FranC]

I trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. That's not what I'm hearing from you or your new friend. You are both hung up on works for salvation.

YOU just don't listen to persons.
Nor do all those that gave you a like.
It's a nice little club you've got there.

But Church is not a club.

 

[FranC]

not to be mean, But would it not be better if they just both shared their belief, that way we can judge forourselves without any preconceived notions of what they believe.

I think that is one of the problems here..

LOL

I've been sharing my belief for over 500 pages.
Do you understand it?

NO.

Because you're afraid of the word "works".
Because you don't understand that God has not changed.
Because you don't really LISTEN but just enjoy demeaning.
And I will NOT run from you.

 

[UnderGrace]

Club, secret society....another conspiracy theory raises it ugly head....is Mel Gibson in the house?

YOU just don't listen to persons.
Nor do all those that gave you a like.
It's a nice little club you've got there.

But Church is not a club.