Not By Works

[PeterJens]

A true believer does not stop believing. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. See 1 John 2:19.

A lot of people love the idea of being sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Why is this an eternal sealing? It is a deposite of a promise as Paul describes it.

Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
2 Tim 2:19

Here is being sealed by the Holy Spirit and turning away from wickedness.

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 1:21-22

Here again is being sealed, along with standing firm in Christ.

Now it is obvious some are preaching to doubt security, or certainty is a demonic idea,
automatically excludes the obvious interpretation of the verses from Paul.

How is it that people ignore this obvious reality? How can a believer be sealed in the
Holy Spirit and lead a life of rebellion. This would imply the Holy Spirit is happy to dwell
in the heart of evil and wickedness, which is completely the opposite of Gods nature and
approach.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

if you look at the verses all around that One bro, you see it actually IS about what the people are doing. its a matter of what are they doing. take a look

Matthew 7:21-27Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ( the message hear is sayoing Jesus is Lord wont save anyone, but doing the Will of the Lord actually doing is the difference Gods will is found in the next few verses)
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. ( those who hear and also DO the Gospel) 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. ( those who hear the same and do not do the gospel)

these verses all go together. the Word of God is all about what we do. the reason we need to have faith, is that faith will move us to those actions. if we say i have faith Jesus is Lord, that wont save anyone. But to Have Faith and serve Jesus as Lord, by dong Gods will which is what Jesus was telling us in the four gospels all Hius teachings and commands those are the express, clear will of God. we can on one hand say were saved by faith, but that faith Has to be real or its just a word. faith that saves is to DO because we really believe.


its like if your most trusted friend told you theres a fortune buried in the front yard, its yours if your willing to dig it up. ....if you have faith in that person youll go dig up the fortune. if you dont, why waste your time digging.

thats the issue with the doctrine of no works. God has placed before us eternal Life, if we Believe Jesus like that most trusted One then well be fine but we have to believe what He says, what He taught, what conditions He places on it. if there is faith there will never be an argument against doing the works taught clearly and defined as life or death. its the same with the Judgement day. Jesus. Paul, peter, John all are clear that our judgement will be about Our deeds , what we Have done being given a new spirit and Life and faith.

what we dont do can destroy us, and what we dont do is because of what we refuse to believe.

James 2:14

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


18-20
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?




oh i agree

but what i do

is not where my faith is


my faith is in Jesus


we turn from sin and practice righteousness out of love for God


not out of duty

or not to earn our way


when people think its because who they are
or what they do that saves them


wouldnt you agree they are wrong?

 

[followjesus]

We must be holy because He is holy. The dispute comes over how this happens. Does He cause me to keep the law outwardly? No. He causes me to keep it inwardly, in spirit, in my heart, and then the outside is just clean as well. If I don't murder in my heart and in spirit, I will not murder outwardly. And if I trust/rest/abide, I am keeping my sabbath rest in Him. There is no law that can condemn a man who keeps the law in spirit. The spirit of the law is life and the letter is death.

lol what you are saying doesnt nullify the actions though. to "keep the law inwardly" whats that even mean? your saying believe right and you will do right, thats all about the actions you do. if you tell a lie wheres that leave the inward thing? does it mean inwardly you didnt lie so the lie you told doesnt count even though you told the Lie? its just a circular logic thing. to say well if i sin, i didnt really sin because "inwardly" i keep the law. its just an excuse to not have to actually do Gods will. the Only truth to Life is what a person actually does BECAUSE what we do comes from the true beliefin us, this idea doesnt then make our actions irrelevant it makes them a gauge of truth.

if "inwarldy" i agree Gods ways are right, then my actions will press toward those things. the ultimate end is to do the things God has said are right without a grievance " well great now i gotta share my money with the poor..pshh not for me" that type of belief, a person might as well keep thier money because the work of giving means nothing to God like that.

or " pshh im forgiven but now Jesus is commanding repentance of me sinful actions ? huh naw pshh great thats just great now i gotts give up all these things i enjoy just because God says thier sin naw i dont have to do that Jesus did it all already " that person might as well continue living for themselves. the truth is that what we do, will determine our judgement. its by Faith because faith will always do, it will never explain why doing isnt required lol thats like saying well abraham believed God and was righteous. yet the very first thing abraham did because He believed God, was get up and go do what God had said to go do. He didnt say" i believe you lord so now im righteous and dont need to obey you. praise you lord but i dont need to obey you or anything"


abrams belief made Him get up and do what God said, thats the belief that made Him righteous. Belief is unveiled in what we do. sure we gotta believe Jesus died for our sins, we gotta believe all of it though. including the things that require action and sacrifice from us. Just simply obedience to God BECAUSE we believe. if a person is right inside, thier actions will match.

 

[Grace777x70]

The reality is people can be going to church every time the doors are open, praying 5 hours a day, read their bibles 3 hours every day, witness to every thing that moves, be pastoring a church for 30 years, read the scriptures in Greek and Hebrew, live good moral lives and still be "fallen away" from the faith.

( as 1 Tim. 4:1-5 shows what "falling from the faith" really is and not what some church denomination tradition says it is.)

The "fallen away" which is the Greek word [FONT="Gentium" !important]aphistēmi [/FONT]really means to "with draw from, depart from, abstain from".

People "fall away from the faith" when they rely on what they do or don't do for life and righteousness instead of relying on what Christ has already done.

Whenever we are attempting to live by the works we do instead of the grace, love and life of Christ being manifested in and through us - we are not living by faith in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

 

[FranC]

I think I might disagree somewhat about storing up some things because of the way things are going...it is not what I store up that will provide for me and keep me safe and fed. We have an example that was given for us with Israel in the desert. The extra they collected for security because they wanted to feel secure turned to worms. And also God can sew up a hole in your pocket or put a hole in your pocket. What they did to feel secure turned to worms but yet their shoes lasted for 40 years.

He didn't demand that they only gather enough for the present day because He was stingy. He did it to test their trust (faith.)

This is all true and a great spriitual lesson.
But when my car breaks down and I need money to fix it, the mechanic wants money.
He doesn't want to hear a sermon.

God wants us to be responsible with our money.
We are to take care of our families and this includes providing for them.

We have a poster on this forum who just lost a job and is worried.
Is this unusual? There are mortgages to be paid, food to be purchased, heating and lighting and phone and computers to upkeep.

Sometimes I don't understand some statement.
I doubt you sit home and don't go to work and God sends a check in the mail.
I doubt God would be happy with this.
Read Thessalonians. dd

I just wish we could be clear with our wording.



Psalm 90:17

17 May the favor of the Lord our God rest on us; establish the work of our hands for us— yes, establish the work of our hands.


Proverbs 12:11

11 Those who work their land will have abundant food, but those who chase fantasies have no sense.


Proverbs 13:4
4 A sluggard’s appetite is never filled, but the desires of the diligent are fully satisfied.


Proverbs 14:23

23 All hard work brings a profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty.


1 Timothy 5:8

8 Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


Proverbs 6:10-12

10 A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest— 11 and poverty will come on you like a thief and scarcity like an armed man. 12 A troublemaker and a villain, who goes about with a corrupt mouth,


2 Timothy 2:6

6 The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops.


Genesis 2:15

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.

 

[Bogadile]

2 Timothy 2:15
​

New International Version
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

New Living Translation
Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth.

English Standard Version
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Berean Literal Bible
Hasten to present yourself approved to God, a workman not ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

New American Standard Bible
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

When will you answer my question. How do I know if I am believing in false doctrine? You gave me a bible verse but did not explain how to know if I am accurately dividing it. It seems to me everyone claims to be rightly handling the word of truth, yet come to different conclusions.

 

[JIMBO43]

A lot of people love the idea of being sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Why is this an eternal sealing? It is a deposite of a promise as Paul describes it.

Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
2 Tim 2:19

Here is being sealed by the Holy Spirit and turning away from wickedness.

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 1:21-22

Here again is being sealed, along with standing firm in Christ.

Now it is obvious some are preaching to doubt security, or certainty is a demonic idea,
automatically excludes the obvious interpretation of the verses from Paul.

How is it that people ignore this obvious reality? How can a believer be sealed in the
Holy Spirit and lead a life of rebellion. This would imply the Holy Spirit is happy to dwell
in the heart of evil and wickedness, which is completely the opposite of Gods nature and
approach.

I believe in being saved again.. i aslo believe God can make a man walk a life of limbo or a sentence of upto 25 years or more...


A man can commit evil if denomic influence is present or they are under the influence of drugs..

Or if they have not let go of something like revenge.. or seeked an alternative to revenge..

all this said i feel strongly that if the holy spirit indwelled person commits a bad evil act then i strongly believe the Father can command the holy spirit to leave that person for a while maybe even upto 25 years....and maybe the spirit automaticaly leaves

This would be called being saved again if the person makes it through 25 years of limbo without the holy spirit...

I doubt many would make it through that long walking without the spirit..

Of cause none of this holds any substantial proof But i really d feal that the spirit would automaticaly leave the body to imform God of there evil act.....

I dont think the spirit could stay in its temple if its temple is commiting evil.

All this is off course is a foundation where by the spirit will surely sence when your tempted in which case it would convict befor you sin.. all tho not many here would agree with that... ??? i dont see how or why not especialy when we know even Jesus was tempted this we cant stop... However the spirit must surely warn there followers that evil is knocking at your door ?

 

[FranC]

when did your heart or your action ,save you. so you must have been told or read the bible to the fact , for there is to be a saviour. it is up to you to listen, or reject what is being said. so the deceiver can be you, or the person who told you,if you cannot support there/ your claim or faith. then who is answerable, for you/them, being deceived.

What a legalist !
It takes a formula to know §God?

How did those in Romans 1 know God??

 

[FranC]

When will you answer my question. How do I know if I am believing in false doctrine? You gave me a bible verse but did not explain how to know if I am accurately dividing it. It seems to me everyone claims to be rightly handling the word of truth, yet come to different conclusions.

Yes. This IS a problem.
Going to a good bible-believing Church that could train you as to what scripture means would be the way to do.

 

[Stephen63]

if you look at the verses all around that One bro, you see it actually IS about what the people are doing. its a matter of what are they doing. take a look

Matthew 7:21-27Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ( the message hear is sayoing Jesus is Lord wont save anyone, but doing the Will of the Lord actually doing is the difference Gods will is found in the next few verses)
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. ( those who hear and also DO the Gospel) 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. ( those who hear the same and do not do the gospel)

these verses all go together. the Word of God is all about what we do. the reason we need to have faith, is that faith will move us to those actions. if we say i have faith Jesus is Lord, that wont save anyone. But to Have Faith and serve Jesus as Lord, by dong Gods will which is what Jesus was telling us in the four gospels all Hius teachings and commands those are the express, clear will of God. we can on one hand say were saved by faith, but that faith Has to be real or its just a word. faith that saves is to DO because we really believe.


its like if your most trusted friend told you theres a fortune buried in the front yard, its yours if your willing to dig it up. ....if you have faith in that person youll go dig up the fortune. if you dont, why waste your time digging.

thats the issue with the doctrine of no works. God has placed before us eternal Life, if we Believe Jesus like that most trusted One then well be fine but we have to believe what He says, what He taught, what conditions He places on it. if there is faith there will never be an argument against doing the works taught clearly and defined as life or death. its the same with the Judgement day. Jesus. Paul, peter, John all are clear that our judgement will be about Our deeds , what we Have done being given a new spirit and Life and faith.

what we dont do can destroy us, and what we dont do is because of what we refuse to believe.

Well said.

Jesus commanded obedience from believers to prove their faith, & the Great Commission lays it all out:

Matthew 28
​

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[JIMBO43]

and the law will be re established

 

[Stephen63]

The reality is people can be going to church every time the doors are open, praying 5 hours a day, read their bibles 3 hours every day, witness to every thing that moves, be pastoring a church for 30 years, read the scriptures in Greek and Hebrew, live good moral lives and still be "fallen away" from the faith.

( as 1 Tim. 4:1-5 shows what "falling from the faith" really is and not what some church denomination tradition says it is.)

The "fallen away" which is the Greek word [FONT=&quot]aphistēmi [/FONT]really means to "with draw from, depart from, abstain from".

People "fall away from the faith" when they rely on what they do or don't do for life and righteousness instead of relying on what Christ has already done.

This is a half-truth at best. biblehub.com has a full page of what the Greek says, & most of it states emphatically that it's falling away from Christ in open rebellion against God, never again to turn back.

This is G777's translation..... "you shall not surely die".

Those that believe easy believeism have been beguiled just like Eve was. Permanent salvation regardless of rebellion, willful sinning without remorse, is saying "You shall not surely die."

What God told Adam & Eve was the first commandment, the first doctrine, & the serpent spoke the first false doctrine.

I find it very ironic the last false doctrine is still pretty much the first: "You shall not surely die". You will live forever.

 

[Stephen63]

When will you answer my question. How do I know if I am believing in false doctrine? You gave me a bible verse but did not explain how to know if I am accurately dividing it. It seems to me everyone claims to be rightly handling the word of truth, yet come to different conclusions.

In this thread, there are only two conclusions that keep coming up.

In interpreting scripture, there's a solid rule to remember: scripture interprets scripture.

Some will say, "the Holy Spirit shows me". This would be true, is indeed they allowed the Spirit to show them anything.

When multitudes of scripture are ignored, be rest assured you would be wrong.

When scriptures seem to clash with each other, it's because some of the meanings have been twisted & turned into lies.

I don't know what you believe. But if you believe in easy believeism, you will have to overlook tons of scripture about repentance, conviction, & living faith.

In Revelation, for instance, Several scriptures are there telling true churches to repent of their sins & change their ways, or God will judge them. Yet easy believeists refuse them, & say they're forever saved & their present & future sins are covered. So they refuse to repent, in turn refusing the Holy Spirit & grieving Him.

 

[followjesus]

James 2:14

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


18-20
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?




oh i agree

but what i do

is not where my faith is


my faith is in Jesus


we turn from sin and practice righteousness out of love for God


not out of duty

or not to earn our way


when people think its because who they are
or what they do that saves them


wouldnt you agree they are wrong?

i totally agree bro with that. i guess what im saying is a person who has faith, will never make the argument that Our works have no part in it. Because of the lack of defining faith people are stumbling badly. Faith is One with the right actions is what im saying. no we can do as many works without Jesus we want and were as lost as ever, but to Have Jesus wil always make doing the good a priority, and will never discourage doing what is right according to Gods Word that comes through Jesus.

Not acting as if we have faith, will leave us Lost. so the actions are a required part of salvation. things Like repentance come because we accept that we must repent. its the first statement of Jesus ministry. "Repent for the Kingdom of God has come near" and so many times Jesus makes clear that faith isnt there without the Works produced by Faith. as He makes so very clear the importance of Obeying His word. throughout the gospel He links obedience to His word to " freedom from sin john 8:31-32" to salvation itself.

paul says this " you are saved By Grace through Faith" thats true, but the thing is define faith, define Grace not as we would have it Be but as the Bible makes plain. paul says many things like that, phrases that are a summary of things in the Gospel, they arent a new different teaching, but a summary. such as " Love thy neighbor as thyself this fulfills the Law" but all around that verse Paul is saying " Love is a summary of the commandments. John says the same thing and Jesus said that first. we cant Love one another and not Keep the Law because the Law ( the covenant law the 10 commandments) are what Love is to God. it not like our Love that is a feeling, But Gods Love is a movement to the actions of Love. its not Love to lie to you, to steal from you, to marry a woman and then commit adultery, or to sleep with my neighbors wife, nor to transgress any of the commandments. we cant say Our actions arent rewuired , we Just love. because Love without action is also dead.

we Know what Love is because we accept and believe Gods word. Love is what righteousness is, its what God has taught us to do in His word. Love for God is obedience to Him, and when that is the focus of the Heart, when a person accepts that Our actions are a requirement then repentance and righteousness will go to work. as Long a sinful mankind makes the claim " it doesnt matter what we do" repentance will never happen. because it comes from understanding " what i did was wrong, i sinned, im guilty" <<<< that produces Godly sorrow and Godly sorrow for our sin produces repentance.

The feel good gospel doesnt work. the Gospel of Jesus Christ will never fail. and Obedience is made a requirement from Jesus Forward.


so i do understand what you are saying. Good works dont save anyone without first Having Faith in Jesus. if a person Has faith in Jesus, doing right according to Jesus will be our Heart and Life from the inside out.

 

[Muzungu256]

In this thread, there are only two conclusions that keep coming up.

In interpreting scripture, there's a solid rule to remember: scripture interprets scripture.

Some will say, "the Holy Spirit shows me". This would be true, is indeed they allowed the Spirit to show them anything.

When multitudes of scripture are ignored, be rest assured you would be wrong.

When scriptures seem to clash with each other, it's because some of the meanings have been twisted & turned into lies.

I don't know what you believe. But if you believe in easy believeism, you will have to overlook tons of scripture about repentance, conviction, & living faith.

In Revelation, for instance, Several scriptures are there telling true churches to repent of their sins & change their ways, or God will judge them. Yet easy believeists refuse them, & say they're forever saved & their present & future sins are covered. So they refuse to repent, in turn refusing the Holy Spirit & grieving Him.

will the church of today have to go thru the contents of the book of revelation tho?????????

 

[Grace777x70]

We have defined "apostasy" from our own understanding of that term which we can get from our denominational teachings. It simply means in the Greek "to depart" or "to separate from."

So, we have heard sermons from our church upbringing where "apostasy" was used and put in some scriptures here and there and we come up with a doctrine. Now the "meaning" of apostasy has taken on a whole life within itself.

It is used 16 times in scripture and all the meanings are the same "To separate or to depart" "stand separate from" - "withdraw from".

Here is an example of it being used.

1 Timothy 6:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.


The truth is all of us in some form can be standing apart from some things that Christ has done for us. We can know that we have the peace of Christ but we withdraw or depart from believing in that because our mind cannot get around the natural circumstances.

The famous scripture that is used from those believe we lose salvation is 1 Tim. 4:1 - but let's look and see what it is really saying "in context".

They usually love to just quote the part about seducing spirits and doctrines of devils ( which they usually apply to something they don't believe in but some one else might ).

Let's see what Paul was actually saying "departing from the faith actually is".

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away (apostesontai - this is the word - apostasy ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.

verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort when we are to believe on Christ's work on the cross and resurrection for all things.

It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life. All works-based belief systems are built off of this.

.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So we see that the word "apostasy" is not what some try to make it into. There are many warnings in scripture about living your own ways and thoughts contrary to God such as depending on the flesh for life instead of walking by the spirit and they should be heeded if you want His life to be manifested in us.

Let's build believers up in Christ and feed them the proper nutrients of proclaiming the love and grace of our Lord for them and these will give them the proper foundation in Christ.

And then the warnings will be applied in context of Christ's finished work on the cross and not on a works-based, fear-based belief system which only nullifies the very grace of God needed for us to live in this earth.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

i totally agree bro with that. i guess what im saying is a person who has faith, will never make the argument that Our works have no part in it. Because of the lack of defining faith people are stumbling badly. Faith is One with the right actions is what im saying. no we can do as many works without Jesus we want and were as lost as ever, but to Have Jesus wil always make doing the good a priority, and will never discourage doing what is right according to Gods Word that comes through Jesus.

Not acting as if we have faith, will leave us Lost. so the actions are a required part of salvation. things Like repentance come because we accept that we must repent. its the first statement of Jesus ministry. "Repent for the Kingdom of God has come near" and so many times Jesus makes clear that faith isnt there without the Works produced by Faith. as He makes so very clear the importance of Obeying His word. throughout the gospel He links obedience to His word to " freedom from sin john 8:31-32" to salvation itself.

paul says this " you are saved By Grace through Faith" thats true, but the thing is define faith, define Grace not as we would have it Be but as the Bible makes plain. paul says many things like that, phrases that are a summary of things in the Gospel, they arent a new different teaching, but a summary. such as " Love thy neighbor as thyself this fulfills the Law" but all around that verse Paul is saying " Love is a summary of the commandments. John says the same thing and Jesus said that first. we cant Love one another and not Keep the Law because the Law ( the covenant law the 10 commandments) are what Love is to God. it not like our Love that is a feeling, But Gods Love is a movement to the actions of Love. its not Love to lie to you, to steal from you, to marry a woman and then commit adultery, or to sleep with my neighbors wife, nor to transgress any of the commandments. we cant say Our actions arent rewuired , we Just love. because Love without action is also dead.

we Know what Love is because we accept and believe Gods word. Love is what righteousness is, its what God has taught us to do in His word. Love for God is obedience to Him, and when that is the focus of the Heart, when a person accepts that Our actions are a requirement then repentance and righteousness will go to work. as Long a sinful mankind makes the claim " it doesnt matter what we do" repentance will never happen. because it comes from understanding " what i did was wrong, i sinned, im guilty" <<<< that produces Godly sorrow and Godly sorrow for our sin produces repentance.

The feel good gospel doesnt work. the Gospel of Jesus Christ will never fail. and Obedience is made a requirement from Jesus Forward.


so i do understand what you are saying. Good works dont save anyone without first Having Faith in Jesus. if a person Has faith in Jesus, doing right according to Jesus will be our Heart and Life from the inside out.

i would go as far to say

good works dont save anyone
or add to salvation in any way




but anyone who truely loves Jesus
or anyone who is truely born again

is a new creation


i think we agree

i like much of what you say man


im just weary of using certain wordings myself in fear of taking away from what Jesus our savior did
^_^


all glory to Him

 

[followjesus]

It seems you're grasping for straws here.

Falling away can only mean those that are saved. Sinners were never lifted up, so there's no place to fall

exactly bro, not only that scripture about falling away but its actually a very consistant principle. its always really strange to me when someone argues that whats written in the new testament isnt really for the church. its all written by the church, directly to the church. its not as if the epistles were sent to non believers or those who didnt believe in Jesus. so all thats written about falling away about judgement day about repentance of the acts of the flesh in galatians and ephesians five that expressly say " those who do these things will never have any inheritance or take part in Gods Kingdom.....those are all written to believers, directly to Christians , from Christians. theres at least 20 clear warnings i can think of in the new testament that warn of believing and then turning away, or believing and then continuing on in sin. warnings that are true and infallible.

its crazy How far the world is from what Gods Word really says. and most of it comes from the new age "church" and proclaimed believers. yet so many refuse to accept and believe the Gospel or anything in the new testament that differs from the "grace movement revolution" that insists really Jesus Had it wrong, paul had it wrong, John had it wrong when they warned again and again believers to repent and do the right things or.........be castaway. its a very subtle and clever deception, but deception always is that way. and false doctrines always have scripture to support it, its Just that scripture is plucked out of context.

 

[Grace777x70]

The lie of the serpent in the garden was telling Eve to try to be like God without God by what she did or didn't do which she could get by her eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

He appealed to her sense of "good". She wanted to be like God and see where she could do this without relying on God Himself.

The lie is still being spoken to us by the serpent - to rely on what we do instead of the life of Christ. Trying to "mimic" God and "be like God" without having God's life as the true source of life and living.

All works based belief systems have this trait and it is a deception from the enemy. The true gospel of the grace of God in Christ sets us free from this lie.

For God knows that in the day you eat of the fruit - you will be like God - knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

 

[Muzungu256]

The lie of the serpent in the garden was telling Eve to try to be like God without God by what she did or didn't do which she could get by her eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

He appealed to her sense of "good".

The lie is still being spoken to us by the serpent - to rely on what we do instead of the life of Christ. Trying to "mimic" God and "be like God" without having God's life as the true source of life and living.

All works based belief systems have this trait and it is a deception from the enemy. The true gospel of the grace of God in Christ sets us free from this lie.

For God knows that in the day you eat of the fruit - you will be like God - knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

loool bro u switched that up like nothing