The Rapture

[tanakh]

Found a picture of what the Safeway Giant Hoagies look like in their Deli Display Cooler:

Regular 6" Sub Sandwich on the left. SAFEWAY'S Full Size French Loaf Giant Hoagie front and center. Like I said, you should see their eyes when I handed those hungry people one of those, made me smile all the way through my soul.

Now if you want a Laugh, when I was a teenager, I was a Carrier Out Boy, at a Grocery Store called HINKY DINKY.

Safeway died a death in the UK about five years ago. It was taken over by a store called Morrisons. I dont think it sold Hoggies. I cant remember seeing any. Do Hinky Dinky stores still exist? Im suprised they had any Customers they would be too busy laughing at the name here to go inside

 

[iamsoandso]

Where is this rapture in the old testament, not examples of a rapture but where does Joel or Isaiah or Ezekiel or Daniel mention the rapture?

Not in the books you mentioned but in Matthew 24, the ones Jesus mentioned Lot and Noah(when the righteous come out)...

 

[Magenta]

Safeway died a death in the UK about five years ago. It was taken over by a store called Morrisons. I dont think it sold Hoggies. I cant remember seeing any. Do Hinky Dinky stores still exist? Im suprised they had any Customers they would be too busy laughing at the name here to go inside

I never saw a Safeway until I came to the west coast forty years ago. Later when I was back visiting Toronto at one point, they had Sobeys there, which I had also never seen before. Now Sobeys has taken over Safeway here. That hoagie sandwich sells for ten dollars... Sobeys Inc. is the second largest food retailer in Canada, with over 260 supermarkets operating in Canada and around 1500 under a variety of banners. At least it is Canadian owned. Safeway was not, and I rarely shopped there because of it. I did buy a hoagie a few times, though, when I wanted to eat inexpensively. It would last three to four days at least, for a lunch or dinner meal each day.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Not in the books you mentioned but in Matthew 24, the ones Jesus mentioned Lot and Noah(when the righteous come out)...

Hello iamsoandso,

You might want to mention to KJV1611, that the gathering of the living church (rapture) is not found in the OT and that because Paul introduced it as "a mystery," which would mean that it was something hidden, previously unknown.

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

 

[iamsoandso]

Hello iamsoandso,

You might want to mention to KJV1611, that the gathering of the living church (rapture) is not found in the OT and that because Paul introduced it as "a mystery," which would mean that it was something hidden, previously unknown.

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

Who is Jesus quoting Abraham's speech "if there be 10 will you destroy it,and if there be 5? or if there be only one will he? Which is Genesis? would I not find my self in a fix if I did mention that?

 

[tanakh]

Might I add my favorite point: if the Church returns in Rev 19:14 then they cannot be the same people resurrected in Rev 20:4.
SLAM DUNK. Who can refute this point? I see no way out of it.

Rev 20 is a continuation of what John saw in Rev 19. There are only two universal resurrections in Revelation. one is called the first resurrection and the other is at the great white throne Judgement. Apart from that if there is a second resurrection
of the dead at Rev 20 where have they been since the one in Rev19.

Paul says that Christ will bring with his at his coming all those who have fallen asleep that includes all those who are killed by the Antichrist. It is very simple Christians die all the time. Where do they go? The answer is to be with Christ. Otherwise where else are they? Unless you believe in Soul Sleep like some cults they are all in Heaven. I notice that in Rapture discussions the dead in Christ take a back seat, seeing that most of them are already with him in spirit form this is very odd
One reason for it is that the idea of millions of dead Christians being in heaven now doesnt fit neatly in with the Pre Trib teaching so the emphasis is placed on those alive here on earth.

 

[Ahwatukee]

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,

(Both coming of the Lord and rapture)

And where do you see the wrath of God taking place in between right now and the time when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and the rapture?

You see the problem don't you? Sometime between now and the time that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. Since God's wrath must take place prior to when the Lord returns to the earth and believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the church must be gathered prior to that wrath.

Besides that "the coming of the Lord" that Paul is speaking about is not referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, but when He appears to gather us, which is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Who is Jesus quoting Abraham's speech "if there be 10 will you destroy it,and if there be 5? or if there be only one will he? Which is Genesis? would I not find my self in a fix if I did mention that?

Jesus is not quoting Abraham. I am used this as an example in that, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. When Abraham was speaking with the Lord, the Lord said, "if I find ten righteous people (In Sodom) then I will not destroy it for the sake of the ten."

==============================================

The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”

“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”

Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”

He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”

Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”

He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”

He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”

Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

============================================

God will not destroy the righteous with the wicked

 

[Jackson123]

And where do you see the wrath of God taking place in between right now and the time when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and the rapture?

You see the problem don't you? Sometime between now and the time that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. Since God's wrath must take place prior to when the Lord returns to the earth and believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the church must be gathered prior to that wrath.

Besides that "the coming of the Lord" that Paul is speaking about is not referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, but when He appears to gather us, which is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

I do not see any problem.

that is what Paul say.

wrath of God can be after tribulation or during tribulation

If happen during tribulation, God able to protect the saint like He protect Israel in Egyp during wrath of God in that land

 

[iamsoandso]

And where do you see the wrath of God taking place in between right now and the time when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and the rapture?

You see the problem don't you? Sometime between now and the time that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. Since God's wrath must take place prior to when the Lord returns to the earth and believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the church must be gathered prior to that wrath.

Besides that "the coming of the Lord" that Paul is speaking about is not referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, but when He appears to gather us, which is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

but are the days the man of sin dwells here the wrath of God or is the wrath poured out in the earth because of the things done during the days the man of sin is present?

In other words will he pour out his wrath on the earth before the man of sin comes and deceives mankind or will he because of it? So as we know from Revelation the wrath of God is always poured out on those who have the mark,name,number or those who added to or took away from the prophecy,but no one else.

Which is the question about the rapture why would it say not to harm any of those who don’t have the mark to the angels and tell them not to harm them if they are not there at that time?

 

[Ahwatukee]

In Rev.19:6-8, the church/bride is clearly present in heaven receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Rev.19:14 we have that same group wearing that same fine linen, riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven.

Rev.20:4-6 is a different group of people who cannot possibly be the same as those above, because they are being resurrected after the Lord and the church return to the earth to end the age. This group that was behead are those who will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark, which are those saints who will have been killed during the great tribulation.

Once again, the church cannot go through the wrath of God, which is what would have to happen in order for the church to be that group who are seen as beheaded and resurrected.

In addition, there are a couple of resurrections and those who are living and changed. All of these fall under the banner of the "first resurrection." There are not just two.

 

[Ahwatukee]

In other words will he pour out his wrath on the earth before the man of sin comes and deceives mankind or will he because of it?

The first seal is representing the antichrist, the rider on the white horse who goes out to conquer and is bent on conquest.

Jesus is the One opening the seals, which leads to the trumpets and is followed by the bowl judgments.

Everything that takes place during that last seven years, including the events of the anitichrist/beast, is apart of God's wrath. God even uses the beast and the ten kings to destroy the woman who rides the beast.

It is all God's plan in fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy sets of seven that was decreed upon Israel.

During this same seven years, God is going to be pouring out His wrath upon the entire Christ rejecting world, as described in Dan.2:31-45.

Which is the question about the rapture why would it say not to harm any of those who don’t have the mark to the angels and tell them not to harm them if they are not there at that time?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that you are referring to the following scripture:

"They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. [/quote]


The above takes place at the sounding of the 5th trumpet. And those who have the seal of God in their forehead, will only be those 144,000 who come out of Israel, who will have been sealed in Rev.7:1-6 . This means that everyone else on the planet will suffer from the stings of these demonic beings who come out of the Abyss. The church will have been removed prior to God's wrath.

 

[iamsoandso]

In Rev.19:6-8, the church/bride is clearly present in heaven receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Rev.19:14 we have that same group wearing that same fine linen, riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven.

Rev.20:4-6 is a different group of people who cannot possibly be the same as those above, because they are being resurrected after the Lord and the church return to the earth to end the age. This group that was behead are those who will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark, which are those saints who will have been killed during the great tribulation.

Once again, the church cannot go through the wrath of God, which is what would have to happen in order for the church to be that group who are seen as beheaded and resurrected.

In addition, there are a couple of resurrections and those who are living and changed. All of these fall under the banner of the "first resurrection." There are not just two.

Resurrection of the dead and the changing of those who remain alive are two different things one lived died and was later resurrected from death and the other lived and did not die and was changed.


tomorrow though it's late here.

 

[J7]

but are the days the man of sin dwells here the wrath of God or is the wrath poured out in the earth because of the things done during the days the man of sin is present?

In other words will he pour out his wrath on the earth before the man of sin comes and deceives mankind or will he because of it? So as we know from Revelation the wrath of God is always poured out on those who have the mark,name,number or those who added to or took away from the prophecy,but no one else.

Which is the question about the rapture why would it say not to harm any of those who don’t have the mark to the angels and tell them not to harm them if they are not there at that time?

No, the days of the man of sin are not the wrath of God.

The man of sin invites God's wrath


[FONT=&quot]10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned (krino) who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Krino means judged.




[/FONT]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Resurrection of the dead and the changing of those who remain alive are two different things one lived died and was later resurrected from death and the other lived and did not die and was changed.


tomorrow though it's late here.

Yes they are two different things, but are apart of the same event. The only reason that the those who are still alive in Christ are changed into their immortal and glorified bodies, is because they will not be dead when the resurrection of the dead takes place. So they are just immediately changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and caught up with those who will have resurrected.

The dead in Christ = bodies rise from the earth and are transformed into immortal and glorified bodies

The Living in Christ = Still alive at the time the resurrection takes place and are changed.

Same event, the dead have to be resurrected and the living have to be changed. The entire event for both, will all happen faster than we can blink!

 

[tanakh]

No I don't force verses to fit my own views. God forbid that I should do what you people do.


I challenge you to provide any scripture that I have forced to mean anything other than what scripture states. Because as soon as you provide it, I am going to gather all of the other scripture to support what the scripture is saying. I challenge you to prove it with any topic.

Do you think I have nothing better to do than to go through your endless lectures on site to prove a point. It may be a suprise to you but I don't have your words engraved verbatim on my mind. As an EX Pre Trib believer I have heard all the arguments before and know where the whole baggage originated from and how it developed over the last 170 years or so.

You appear to have a blind spot regarding the wrath of God. You cant seem to differentiate between suffering Gods wrath
and being witness to it. Noah witnessed the wrath of God but didnt suffer it, Neither did Lot at Sodom, the Israelites in Egypt, Joshua at Jericho, or the Christians at Jerusalem in 70AD. According to Scripture the faithful remnant of Jews in the tribulation don't suffer it either

 

[Jackson123]

In Rev.19:6-8, the church/bride is clearly present in heaven receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Rev.19:14 we have that same group wearing that same fine linen, riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven.

Rev.20:4-6 is a different group of people who cannot possibly be the same as those above, because they are being resurrected after the Lord and the church return to the earth to end the age. This group that was behead are those who will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark, which are those saints who will have been killed during the great tribulation.

Once again, the church cannot go through the wrath of God, which is what would have to happen in order for the church to be that group who are seen as beheaded and resurrected.

In addition, there are a couple of resurrections and those who are living and changed. All of these fall under the banner of the "first resurrection." There are not just two.

Paul write a letter to thesalonians, a Christian who accept Jesus before tribulation,

he said you (Christian before tribulation) will not see second coming and rapture before antichrist

paul not say this is only if you not accept Christ after tribulation

 

[Bogadile]

It flabbergasts me how anyone can possibly think there is only ONE RESURRECTION AT ONE MOMENT IN TIME, and it is ALL OVER, with NO MORE RESURRECTIONS.

The Lutheran pastors atleast that I know got it from John 5:28-29 because it says an hour is coming. Obviously the verse does not specificy any time tables

 

[heartofdavid]

The problem is that you assume the restrainer is the Holy Spirit There is nothing in the passage you quote that mentions who the restrainer is. In Revelation 7:1-4 John has a vision of the 144000 being sealed with the seal of God. To me it is very likely that the seal is the Holy Spirit, who according to this teaching supposed to have left the earth with the Church. It may come as a surprise that some members of the early Church thought the restrainer was the Roman Empire that was preventing the Antichrist from coming to power.

A very likely candidate is the Archangel Michael. Daniel calls him the Chief Prince of the people of Israel, his name means who is like God. In Daniel he fought with the Prince of Persia. In Revelation he wages war on the Dragon (Satan) and throws him out of heaven.

Muy problematic.

Because the seal is recognizable by the flying scorpions.

Also proves postrib is poorly thought out in that you guys,in your imagination( not a single verse anywhere indicating your position) not only have saved Jews with no HS getting a seal of the HS (more bizarre mess) and insects somehow able to discern the HS.

Then,for some reason,the insects are NOT TOLD anything about the supposed Christians running from cave to cave from the ACbogey man.

You guys literally made that up.

INCREDIBLE!!

 

[heartofdavid]

Do you think I have nothing better to do than to go through your endless lectures on site to prove a point. It may be a suprise to you but I don't have your words engraved verbatim on my mind. As an EX Pre Trib believer I have heard all the arguments before and know where the whole baggage originated from and how it developed over the last 170 years or so.

You appear to have a blind spot regarding the wrath of God. You cant seem to differentiate between suffering Gods wrath
and being witness to it. Noah witnessed the wrath of God but didnt suffer it, Neither did Lot at Sodom, the Israelites in Egypt, Joshua at Jericho, or the Christians at Jerusalem in 70AD. According to Scripture the faithful remnant of Jews in the tribulation don't suffer it either

Amazing how you jettison any reference to those you document escaping.

Even Noah was safe in the ark BEFORE the flood,then God used the flood to elevate Noah over a mile into the sky,THEN RETURN AFTER the Flood/ tribulation/ wrath.

You guys make stuff up. But worse yet,you have zero verses,and it completely escapes you that you have no examples of a POST TRIBULATION/WRATH DELIVERANCE.

You guys really so obtuse you think a Father,to show his love for his children/bride sets fire to his own house,locks the doors,and then after it is burned to the ground,"deliver" them?

Ridiculous made up non biblical invention of epic proportions .

Post trib rapture is completely debunked.