The Rapture

[Limey410v2]

Same thing, how do you start a statement with "How soon". I know you know that.

I'm not sure I read it as a question. Like "how sweet it is" is not a question. It's a statement.

 

[Limey410v2]

Also withered is past tense.

 

[KJV1611]

I'm not sure I read it as a question. Like "how sweet it is" is not a question. It's a statement.

How sweet IS it is a question though.

 

[Denadii]

How sweet IS it is a question though.

I'm lost...What is this discussion about again?

 

[Limey410v2]

How sweet IS it is a question though.

The verse is confusing. It starts with them saying, not asking, then using how soon is something happening that has already happened.

 

[J7]

I think I am going to write a Screenplay about this mythical Covenant. How about:

"The Seven Year Hitch"

 

[KJV1611]

The verse is confusing. It starts with them saying, not asking, then using how soon is something happening that has already happened.

That's what I've been trying to get across to every one. The literal fig tree was already whithered and the disciples KNEW that the fig tree represented Israel. That's why they said with astonishment, how soon will this be!

 

[Denadii]

The verse is confusing. It starts with them saying, not asking, then using how soon is something happening that has already happened.

Try another version to help the understanding. Like this.
[h=1]Matthew 21:20 (CJB)[/h] [SUP]20 [/SUP]The talmidim saw this and were amazed. “How did the fig tree dry up so quickly?” they asked.


[h=1] Matthew 21:20 (MSG)[/h] [h=3]The Withered Fig Tree[/h][SUP]18-20 [/SUP]Early the next morning Jesus was returning to the city. He was hungry. Seeing a lone fig tree alongside the road, he approached it anticipating a breakfast of figs. When he got to the tree, there was nothing but fig leaves. He said, “No more figs from this tree—ever!” The fig tree withered on the spot, a dry stick. The disciples saw it happen. They rubbed their eyes, saying, “Did we really see this? A leafy tree one minute, a dry stick the next?”



[h=1]Matthew 21:20 (NIV)[/h] [SUP]20 [/SUP]When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.




It's not wrong to cross reference between different versions.

 

[Limey410v2]

That's what I've been trying to get across to every one. The literal fig tree was already whithered and the disciples KNEW that the fig tree represented Israel. That's why they said with astonishment, how soon will this be!

Got it. Sorry I derailed the thread a little again.

 

[J7]

The question is: Since the common teaching is that Jews will get saved in masses ("All Israel") during the tribulation period, how do they match that with Matthew 21:19 where Jesus says the fig tree will never produce fruit again?

There is no real reason why Israel should have to wait is there?

Say, for sake of argument the rule of the Beast Kingdoms ends in ....2033, and we know that after that the stone cut without hands smashes the beast kingdoms and takes dominion, why wouldn't there be a move of the Holy Spirit before that to bring salvation to the Jews?

 

[KJV1611]

Here it is from the Greek - How immediately whither the fig tree?

[TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2532 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]And[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3708 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]idontes[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἰδόντες[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]having seen [it][/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-APA-NMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hoi[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οἱ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-NMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3101 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]mathētai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μαθηταὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]disciples[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2296 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ethaumasan[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐθαύμασαν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]marveled,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-3P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3004 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]legontes[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]λέγοντες[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]saying,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-NMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4459 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Pōs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Πῶς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]How[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3916 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]parachrēma[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]παραχρῆμα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]immediately[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3583 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]exēranthē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐξηράνθη[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]wither[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIP-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἡ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4808 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]sykē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]συκῆ;[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]fig tree?[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[KJV1611]

I'm lost...What is this discussion about again?

The disciples asked "How soon is the fig tree withered away?" They asked this AFTER they saw the literal fig tree Jesus cursed.

The debate is, is the disciples words a statement or a question. Is it "How soon is the fig tree withered" or "How did the fig tree wither so quickly.

 

[heartofdavid]

Withered fig tree 101;

19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Take the Israel analogy out and bingo,context will reveal what Jesus is using a withered plant to illustrate a concept.

Take those verses and play them out,paying attention to what Jesus says about what he did.

Vs 21 :21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.


Understand,that if israel is the fig tree here,then vs 21 has the disciples cursing Israel

 

[Gabriel2020]

I agree with you on that also. But at the same time that tree died by the spoken word

 

[KJV1611]

Withered fig tree 101;

19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Take the Israel analogy out and bingo,context will reveal what Jesus is using a withered plant to illustrate a concept.

Take those verses and play them out,paying attention to what Jesus says about what he did.

Vs 21 :21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

I agree, and we should ALL have enough faith to whither the fig tree in our own lives. The fig tree is done and it shouldn't have any place in a believers life.

 

[heartofdavid]

I agree with you on that also. But at the same time that tree died by the spoken word

That is correct,but the point is,that the thing refused to give fruit to the King. (Jesus). Bottom line;what fruit are we handing him????

 

[heartofdavid]

I agree, and we should ALL have enough faith to whither the fig tree in our own lives. The fig tree is done and it shouldn't have any place in a believers life.

Are you saying Israel is "done"

 

[Magenta]

If the fig tree didn't symbolize Israel, who did it symbolize? The disciples saw the DEAD fig tree and AFTER they saw it they asked "How soon is the fig tree withered away!" If the KJV language is tripping you up, here's the question in modern English "How long will it be until the fig tree is whithered away". What fig tree are they talking about?

Jesus was showing that the Jewish system of sacrifice was dead and unfruitful in terms of salvation, for as Paul said, it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin. Jesus was entering Jerusalem near to the last week of His earthly ministry and He was preparing to institute the new and better covenant, which meant the old had to pass away. That is why He caused the unfruitful fig tree to wither, for it represented the unfruitfulness of Jewish religion.

 

[J7]

Again, it makes more sense to see the Fig Tree as Jerusalem, or the Levites actually.

Who killed Jesus and would go on to attempt to destroy the Church? The religious authorities in Jerusalem.

Acts 8:1 And Saul approved of their killing him. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

What did God promise Abraham regarding the Church?

"I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you"

So Jesus would seem to be cursing the religious authorities in Jerusalem.

 

[KJV1611]

Jesus was showing that the Jewish system of sacrifice was dead and unfruitful in terms of salvation, for as Paul said, it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin. Jesus was entering Jerusalem near to the last week of His earthly ministry and He was preparing to institute the new and better covenant, which meant the old had to pass away. That is why He caused the unfruitful fig tree to wither, for it represented the unfruitfulness of Jewish religion.

Exactly and well put! Flesh Israel is done except for the remnant that God has kept throughout the years, earthly Jerusalem is done as well.