Not By Works

[FranC]

All self

We can have faith, Then God lets us down, So we stop having faith..

Yeah right, Whatever,,

God is not a man who gives his children reasons to stop trusting him,, Maybe if people would see this, they would realize how even the thought that someone who was convinced of everything concerning the gospel somehow becoming unconvinced is just crazy!

If God forces us to have faith, how do we freely love Him?

You don't know anyone who fell away from the faith?
Ever?

 

[FranC]

AMEN.....let us chunk the inspired version for the translated version that loses value and grammatically inspired verb tense.......

If you really believe only the original is inspired, you really should learn koinè Greek and then read the bible in that Language.
Maybe learn Hebrew and some Aramaic too.

I'm serious. If the translated bibles are incapable of transmittng a concept, even if more words have to be used, then we really should stop reading them.

How could we be sure we're reading the true Word of God???

 

[Stephen63]

Revelation 22
​

18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
And if any man shall take away from the prophecy of this book,.... As he may be said to do, who denies the authority of this book, which has been done by some, and which the Holy Ghost foresaw; or takes it away from, or denies the reading of it to the people, as the Papists do with respect to the whole Scripture; and who wilfully pervert the sense of it, and will not have the things in it, relating to antichrist, to belong to him.God shall take away his part out of the book of life; by which is meant eternal election, which is the meaning of the phrase throughout this book, in which whoever are written shall certainly be saved. The worshippers of the beast, or the antichristian party, who are chiefly regarded here, are not written in it, Revelation 13:8 wherefore taking away the part of such, is only taking away that which they seemed to have; see Luke 8:18 and the sense is, that such shall be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death, and will be the portion of all that are not written in the book of life, Revelation 20:15. The Alexandrian copy, one of Stephens's, and the Complutensian edition, read, "the tree of life"; and so do the Syriac and Ethiopic versions; the sense is the same; see John 15:2 and out of the holy city; the new Jerusalem, before described, a part in which is a right to enter into it through the gates, and possess the glories of it: what is mentioned here is only a seeming one, which wicked men may flatter themselves with; and the meaning is, that such shall never enter into it, and enjoy the happiness of it, but shall ever be without, Revelation 21:27

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Geneva Study Bible
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​

​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
​

 

[PHart]

No, We just interpret it correctly.

Gods people do not walk according to the flesh.

You're kidding, right?

But you and much of the churhc has distorted this part of the verse (if it is even really there which is debatable) to means something else..

Then attack and judge people who disagree

By the way, Are you going to answer? Or prove you have something to hide?

Off to work I go....
This will just be lost in hundreds of pages being added until I get back on line.
That hardly means I'm hiding something.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If God forces us to have faith, how do we freely love Him?

Who said he forces people. DO you ever stop putting words in peoples mouths?

You don't know anyone who fell away from the faith?
Ever?

Have I ever met someone who was an enemy of God, Claimed to have faith, Lived a life that proved he had faith, And went back to being worse than he was before and claimed he lost all faith in God and did not even believe God existed or he was really a sinner before? (ie, he does not even have the faith of a mustard seed anymore, He is not calling out to God saying Yes I believe, help me in my unbelief)

No. And I do not think I ever will. why? Because in order for someone to lose faith in someone, Someone has to become untrustworthy, Is God untrustworthy?

I have seen people lack faith in certain areas of their lives, I have seen people walk away because of legalism (why try when I can not live up to their standard) I have seen people through circumstances in their lives walk away because they have questions they can;t answer.

But I have never seen a person lose faith completely before.

Maybe you have seen this in your church? And maybe there is a reason for this??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're kidding, right?

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Who is kidding? there is no condemnation for those in Christ, WHO (those in Christ) do not walk according the flesh.

What is so hard about it?

Off to work I go....
This will just be lost in hundreds of pages being added until I get back on line.
That hardly means I'm hiding something.

No, it will not be lost, I will keep asking until you answer.. In fact you had time to answer right now, The time it took you to write these words you could have answered.

So again I ask, What are you hiding?

 

[Grace777x70]

Grace,
You and Mailmandan should get together and agree on this...

YOU say the gospel has been watered down and replaced by a behavior modification program.
THIS PROGRAM is where works salvation is spawned from.
Which would make this a new phenomenon.

MAILMANDAN says that works salvation is an invention of the RCC, which has been around for over 2,000 years.

WHICH IS IT???

You see the confusion? This is due to the fact that we are abandoning traditional, long-standing Christianity as accepted by all churches except the reformed calvinist Church, and we are allowing all sorts of strange ideas to take hold just because they sound good...

IOW, they are the doctrine of easy believism and cheap grace.
We have watered down what Jesus taught, we've made everythin easy by saying we JUST HAVE TO BELIEVE, and we've cheapened Christ's Death on the Cross to keep us from satan's grip.

All works-based believing that is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ have come about from the start. Even when John and James were leading the church in Jerusalem - works -based believers tried to water down the gospel. ( Acts 21:20 )

The same thing happened to the Galatians when people came saying they "must do things" to be saved. Paul said that he wouldn't stand for this for even one hour so that the truth of the gospel would remain with them. ( Gal. 2:2-5 )

The Roman Catholic church has done it. All works-based believers do it.

Fran - I have said many times that right believing will bring right thinking which is the renewing of the mind to the truth of Christ's finished work and this will bring about right living. That's getting the horse before the cart.

You can call it easy believism and cheap grace if you want to cheapen and denigrate the work of Christ. I'm sticking with the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's useless to argue the same things over and over again. You are free to believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation if you choose.

I will just post what I believe the wonderful work of the Lord Jesus has already accomplished for us and leave it in His hands for the viewers to decide what they want to believe.

I just don't believe that Jesus is a liar when He said - The Holy Spirit will be in you forever. John 14:16 You are free to believe whatever you want.

Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

 

[dcontroversal]

And here we go people. She keeps saying she just believes it is faith can lose salvation, Now she admits that sin can cause us to lose salvation.

Yet she ignores the fact that John said clearly that whoever is born of God can not sin, because they have been born of God, and he also said whoever lives in sin has never seen God or known him.

As I said awhile ago,

I find it amazing, that God said he saved us when we were at our worse. that people think AFTER we have been adopted as a child of God, Given the HS who helps giude us, and chastens us, that we can become WORSE that we were BEFORE we were saved.

That seem to be an impossible task. It basically says GOD totally failed in growing us, they even with his influence and power. we went backward, NOT FORWARD.



When are you going to realise that the RCC destroyed any documents which would have went against its own doctrines. You going to base your eternity on the fact that documents do not show that eternal security was preached before the reformation? Yet conditional security was the bases of Roman theology?

The world teaches salvation must be earned, What makes your belief any different than islam? Catholicism? Judaism? there really is no difference, Just because you name Christ does not make you a believer.

it is sad you do not trust that God will do what he promised, And you think you can overpower God.. Good luck with that.

It is funny (tragic) Jesus was clear concerning the converts the Pharisees made....they were two fold the children of hell....when one has been sold under a false religion they now have to get over the fact that they are lost and the false religion they have espoused.....ALMOST everyone I know who has come out of a false religion still has baggage fro the false religion that cause issues with not only their walk, but also their understanding of the bible.....it takes many years, if not decades to lose the baggage that weighs them down....the same baggage also leads to many errors in interpretation....!

 

[dcontroversal]

Hey bud, you never answered

if Abraham died before he had the opportunity to sacrifice his son, would he have spent eternity with God or away from him?

I am sure you know the answer, can you please share with the room?

Good luck with that...just like the apple tree analogy and questions posed yesterday....they cannot answer truthfully and we all know why............

 

[notuptome]

If God forces us to have faith, how do we freely love Him?

You don't know anyone who fell away from the faith?
Ever?

Many have turned back and failed to follow the Lord toward sanctification. Jesus has lost none that came to Him to be saved.

Sanctification is our walk and many fail under the hardships because they walk and do not rely upon the strength of the Savior. None who are saved can ever be lost. They can suffer loss of fellowship, joy and rewards but not loss of salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Ariel82]

It was Mom's Eyebrow in my family!!

Lol we call it the "mom look" or "mom voice".

It's funny to see my daughter practice it on her younger cousins sometimes.

 

[dcontroversal]

You keep putting the cart before the horse!
The "faith" that "just believes" is NOT faith!
Faith that is saving faith (and that alone saves) will have consequent works - that is what James references.
To try and insist that works save is not being intellectually honest with the material!
Not to mention the fact that would make James contradict all the Pauline epistles - he does not actually contradict Paul but a misunderstanding of James chapter 2 just makes it seem that way.

I must have corrected this false impression of this passage in James about 30 times on this forum by now!

If you add in all who have corrected it the number would be in the hundreds probably................

 

[Stephen63]

Galatians 5:
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

​Self-explanatory.

 

[PeterJens]

the self-deception and delusion is believing one can be sinless in the flesh. no one can.

This is where different ideas about what it means to walk blamelessly before the Lord come
in.

Paul expected people who are called to walk righteously, day in day out.
Paul appears to talk about obvious sin, which can be resolved and deeper issues of the heart,
which only God sees and will judge at the appropriate time.

There is a large difference between defeat, and just not seeing evil and we are called to shun
this, and just walking like the world and say this is acceptable behaviour.

There will always be mysteries, for instance Judas walked among the disciples but they only
knew he was lost when he betrayed Christ.

What is obviously wrong is people aware of sin in their lives and just accepting this as normal.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:13

so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:28

Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
col 3:2

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4:7

 

[Grace777x70]

Fallen from grace does not mean "living in sin" as we have been religiously taught or that we hear from the world's media. So and so was caught stealing $100,000,000 from his hedge fund - "he has fallen from grace".

To fall from grace as Paul used the term is to rely on our own works for righteousness - such as "doing good works to remain saved".

The Judaizers in Paul's day came to the Galatians and said "You must be circumcised" once you are in Christ now. It is the "doing of the law in order to achieve and maintain righteousness."

This actually goes back before the Mosaic Covenant to Abraham as a "sign of you are in the covenant now" and God said if they weren't circumcised - they were not in the covenant - so you can understand how Christians could fall for this.

Galatians 5:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

(Justified by law means - you are justifying or making yourself righteous "by what you do or don't do". The whole law of Moses was based on this.)

[SUP]4 [/SUP] You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

The Greek word for "severed" means "to make idle" or "useless" "to nullify".

This is why those that say we need to do good works in order to stay saved are really nullifying or making useless or idle the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

2643. [FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]καταργέω[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]katargeō[/FONT] verb
Make idle or useless, waste, abolish, cease, do away with, destroy.

[FONT="Gentium" !important]Katargeō[/FONT] means “to abolish” or “to nullify.” In classical Greek [FONT="Gentium" !important]katargeō[/FONT] means “to render inactive, to put out of use, to cancel, bring to nothing” or “do away with.”

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Zeta-Kappa.

And Paul "did not say" that the Galatians were not saved or in Christ anymore - just that their own attempts to do works to create or maintain righteousness would "nullify or make useless" the grace of God that is in Christ and His finished work on the cross and resurrection from operating in their lives like it was meant to.

Paul was very militant at protecting the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ from the "doing of things in order to be righteous".

The grace of God in Christ will manifest itself in our lives in the doing of good works which He has prepared for us to walk in - as we live by relying on Him and what He has already done for us. Eph. 2:10

But we must have Christ Himself as central in all things. He is the Savior.

We must always have the horse before the cart. The "horse" being the righteousness of God in Christ and that we are a new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. This righteousness comes as a "gift" - not of any good works to create it or maintain it.

 

[Ariel82]

It is funny (tragic) Jesus was clear concerning the converts the Pharisees made....they were two fold the children of hell....when one has been sold under a false religion they now have to get over the fact that they are lost and the false religion they have espoused.....ALMOST everyone I know who has come out of a false religion still has baggage fro the false religion that cause issues with not only their walk, but also their understanding of the bible.....it takes many years, if not decades to lose the baggage that weighs them down....the same baggage also leads to many errors in interpretation....!

Talking about baggage (general statement here)....

I have found that people raised in the church are less likely to read the Bible for themselves or question what their church teaches.

Many people have shallow roots based off of reading Sunday school children's bible stories, rote prayers and rituals that don't really have any meaning for them.

Don't get me wrong. I love the traditions of the church and the rich symbolism behind each act.

But communion for example. Many kids and adults don't take the time to seriously thank Jesus for DYING ON THE CROSS for us.

People shelter their kids from the stark truth of nails being hammered into His hands and him hanging their in pain for hours.

I always try and challenge my kids to think beyond what is normally taught.

Ask them questions like "why only three wise men"?

Anything to get them to search the Bible themselves and think and pray.

Teaching a child how to pray and trust that God hears and answers , I believe is more important than 100 other doctrines perfectly understood and taught.

I also believe that the importance of "taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" and "taming your tongue" is an often neglected discipline by most people.

 

[Ariel82]

Galatians 5:
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

​Self-explanatory.

Yep....try and be saved by keeping the law will get you severed from the Covenant of grace.

You can keep the law and be okay. In fact the law is good when used rightly.

However, if you believe that your keeping of the law saves you.,,,then you have fallen from grace.

 

[Grace777x70]

Talking about baggage (general statement here)....

I have found that people raised in the church are less likely to read the Bible for themselves or question what their church teaches.

Many people have shallow roots based off of reading Sunday school children's bible stories, rote prayers and rituals that don't really have any meaning for them.

Don't get me wrong. I love the traditions of the church and the rich symbolism behind each act.

But communion for example. Many kids and adults don't take the time to seriously thank Jesus for DYING ON THE CROSS for us.

People shelter their kids from the stark truth of nails being hammered into His hands and him hanging their in pain for hours.

I always try and challenge my kids to think beyond what is normally taught.

Ask them questions like "why only three wise men"?

Anything to get them to search the Bible themselves and think and pray.

Teaching a child how to pray and trust that God hears and answers , I believe is more important than 100 other doctrines perfectly understood and taught.

I also believe that the importance of "taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" and "taming your tongue" is an often neglected discipline by most people.

I agree...

A Prime example of us "accepting things said to us in church" is what I have highlighted in brown above.

No where does it state in scripture that there was 3 wise men. That is a church tradition taught to us and most Christians would say that there were 3 wise men and "defend the truth" will all their might.

Imagine if the doctrine we believe is based on the same assumptions as the " 3 wise men" is? What if that doctrine has to do with the work of Christ Himself?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good luck with that...just like the apple tree analogy and questions posed yesterday....they cannot answer truthfully and we all know why............

Yep. thats why we need to keep asking, so the whole room can see.

 

[gb9]

This is where different ideas about what it means to walk blamelessly before the Lord come
in.

Paul expected people who are called to walk righteously, day in day out.
Paul appears to talk about obvious sin, which can be resolved and deeper issues of the heart,
which only God sees and will judge at the appropriate time.

There is a large difference between defeat, and just not seeing evil and we are called to shun
this, and just walking like the world and say this is acceptable behaviour.

There will always be mysteries, for instance Judas walked among the disciples but they only
knew he was lost when he betrayed Christ.

What is obviously wrong is people aware of sin in their lives and just accepting this as normal.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:13

so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:28

Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
col 3:2

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4:7

i'm sorry peter, sometimes I forget that you do not use the entire Biblical definition of sin, you just use a partial version of it. this is why you so flippantly speak of being ' free from sin ".

as far as " walking like the world and saying this is acceptable behavior" , go find one post where this was said. if not, stop making things up.