The Rapture

[Ahwatukee]

yeah i think it would be an insult to Jesus' blood as well if animal sacrifices were sanctioned still or in the millennial kingdom, why bother dying for our sins then???????????? but what do i know right.............

Good morning Muzungu256 and PW,

The decreed to Israel and Jerusalem was for seventy seven year periods which are divided up into three sections:

7 sevens = Restore and rebuild Jerusalem

62 sevens = At the end of which the Messiah was cutoff/crucified

At the end of 69 sevens the Lord put a hold on the last seven years (Dan.9:27) to be fulfilled in conjunction with the Lord's return to end the age and began to build the church, which is still in progress. Once the Lord appears and gathers the church, He will pick up right where He left off with Israel, her temple and sacrifices included, fulfilling that last seven years.

Though we know that Jesus shed His blood for us, Israel did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah and so as far as they are concerned, they are still under the law of Moses and waiting for the first appearing of the Messiah

 

[Ahwatukee]

Since we established that the "end of the age" and "last days" applied to first century Israel I think we can piece together some of Dan 12.

Until you get the above correct, everything else will be in error. The end of the age is not referring to just Israel, but the end of the age period. The end of human government, as depicted by the Rock falling on the feet of the statue and smashing it to pieces with the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace (end of human government).

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[FONT=&quot]Josephus, who witnessed the siege and conditions inside the city confirms both Daniel and Jesus' account in almost exactly the same language:

The destruction of the temple in no way fits the criteria of Great tribulation, such as the world has not seen from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again. Jesus is referring to the wrath of God and the reign of the beast during that last seven years and specifically during the last 3 1/2 years. You have no idea of the wrath of God and that great tribulation that is coming upon the earth. You have greatly watered down God's time of wrath. [/FONT]

 

[valiant]

Good morning Muzungu256 and PW,

The decreed to Israel and Jerusalem was for seventy seven year periods which are divided up into three sections:

7 sevens = Restore and rebuild Jerusalem

62 sevens = At the end of which the Messiah was cutoff/crucified

At the end of 69 sevens the Lord put a hold on the last seven years (Dan.9:27) to be fulfilled in conjunction with the Lord's return to end the age and began to build the church, which is still in progress. Once the Lord appears and gathers the church, He will pick up right where He left off with Israel, her temple and sacrifices included, fulfilling that last seven years.

Though we know that Jesus shed His blood for us, Israel did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah and so as far as they are concerned, they are still under the law of Moses and waiting for the first appearing of the Messiah

Where does it say that God put a hold on the last seven years ? It is ail the imaginative reconstruction of the 19 th century.

 

[valiant]

Until you get the above correct, everything else will be in error. The end of the age is not referring to just Israel, but the end of the age period. The end of human government, as depicted by the Rock falling on the feet of the statue and smashing it to pieces with the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace (end of human government).

A little thing like proof is missing?

The destruction of the temple in no way fits the criteria of Great tribulation, such as the world has not seen from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again.

No one said it did. The great tribulation on the Jews had that for starters, but it continued on through the centuries. There has never been anything like it in history (Luke21.20-24),

Jesus is referring to the wrath of God and the reign of the beast during that last seven years and specifically during the last 3 1/2 years.

Funny He forgot to say so?

You have no idea of the wrath of God and that great tribulation that is coming upon the earth. You have greatly watered down God's time of wrath.

'The wrath of God is revealed from Heaven on all the ungodliness and unrighteousness of men' as far back as Rom 1.18. The great tribulation is mainly past. Stop trying to invent things.

 

[Muzungu256]

Where does it say that God put a hold on the last seven years ? It is ail the imaginative reconstruction of the 19 th century.

i would like to know this too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if someone can show that its put on hold i'll believe it no problem but this is purely made up in people's mind that its on hold some how because the church is God's plan b..........................

 

[serpentdove]

You CANNOT even imagine the horrors of the GREAT TRIBULATION that certainly WILL COME.

Many confuse persecution (par for the course for the Christian) and the Great Tribulation.

See:

A 16 year Boy’s Vision Of The Great Tribulation

 

[samuel23]

The term GREAT TRIBULATION is first described in the NT in Matt 24 by Jesus Christ. For some reason folks seem to overlook the fact that Jesus actually DESCRIBED the great tribulation and it was most definitely not the wrath of God poured out on ungodly people. For one thing, a big part of the tribulation is the persecution of believers in Jesus Christ, it is for sure that God would not be persecuting those who walk in faith in His Son. We all know(lets hope) that the one who persecutes believers in Christ is Satan the Devil. The tribulation is a time of war, famine, disease, shakings, and great persecution against those who believe in Christ. It is a time when the Antichrist attempts to wipe out the church and the Jewish people, this is explained in the 6 seals of Revelation. The folks who promote a pre-trib rapture have to stoop to being dishonest about the tribulation, calling it the wrath of God, otherwise they have no position.

 

[valiant]

Many confuse persecution (par for the course for the Christian) and the Great Tribulation.

quite correct. The great tribulation was on the Jews from 68 AD to the present day. Persecution for the church was continual.

 

[VCO]

THe time of the first century refomtion has come we are in the tribulation, the trouble of Jacob . The great tribulation will be on the last day, rapture time for the new creation (Chrstians). Never to rise to new spirit life to those who have not the Spirit of Christ .

The amil postion explains it best.... no need for Christ coming in the flesh as if we did know him who is not a man as us by sight . The thousand years in that parable found in Revelation 20 represents a unknown amount of time. Many times it is used to represent a unknown. Remember without parables Christ the word of God spoke not. Without parables we could never find the spiritual meaning hid form those who have no faith

OH we will know HIM by Sight, just like the Disciples Knew those on the Mount of Tranfiguration.


Luke 9:28-31 (ESV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah,
[SUP]31 [/SUP] who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Matthew 17:1-3 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.


[video=youtube;5D8kHRg33Hk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D8kHRg33Hk[/video]

 

[VCO]

The term GREAT TRIBULATION is first described in the NT in Matt 24 by Jesus Christ. For some reason folks seem to overlook the fact that Jesus actually DESCRIBED the great tribulation and it was most definitely not the wrath of God poured out on ungodly people. For one thing, a big part of the tribulation is the persecution of believers in Jesus Christ, it is for sure that God would not be persecuting those who walk in faith in His Son. We all know(lets hope) that the one who persecutes believers in Christ is Satan the Devil. The tribulation is a time of war, famine, disease, shakings, and great persecution against those who believe in Christ. It is a time when the Antichrist attempts to wipe out the church and the Jewish people, this is explained in the 6 seals of Revelation. The folks who promote a pre-trib rapture have to stoop to being dishonest about the tribulation, calling it the wrath of God, otherwise they have no position.

MORE TWILIGHT ZONE THEOLOGY.Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Zechariah 14:3-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.

 

[VCO]

Many confuse persecution (par for the course for the Christian) and the Great Tribulation.

See:

A 16 year Boy’s Vision Of The Great Tribulation

Matthew 24:21 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For at that time there will be great tribulation,
the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning
of the world until now and never will again!


Take the WORST EXAMPLE OF TRIBULATION YOU CAN THINK OF, SUCH AS THE HOLOCUST of the Jews in WWII; and then multiply it by 100 times, which effects ALL unsaved people. THEN AND ONLY THEN will you come close to understanding what HE MEANS BY THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

 

[PlainWord]

Good morning Muzungu256 and PW,

The decreed to Israel and Jerusalem was for seventy seven year periods which are divided up into three sections:

7 sevens = Restore and rebuild Jerusalem

62 sevens = At the end of which the Messiah was cutoff/crucified

At the end of 69 sevens the Lord put a hold on the last seven years (Dan.9:27) to be fulfilled in conjunction with the Lord's return to end the age and began to build the church, which is still in progress. Once the Lord appears and gathers the church, He will pick up right where He left off with Israel, her temple and sacrifices included, fulfilling that last seven years.

Though we know that Jesus shed His blood for us, Israel did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah and so as far as they are concerned, they are still under the law of Moses and waiting for the first appearing of the Messiah

Good morning AHW,

So you are saying we are to ignore the People of the Prince which came in 70 AD who destroyed the sanctuary and city and instead skip ahead 2,000 years and manufacture a new sanctuary and new prince to come destroy it? What would that do to our 490 years? Wouldn't it add like 2,000 years to it?

 

[PlainWord]

Until you get the above correct, everything else will be in error. The end of the age is not referring to just Israel, but the end of the age period. The end of human government, as depicted by the Rock falling on the feet of the statue and smashing it to pieces with the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace (end of human government).

Sure seems like they thought they were in the last days/coming to an end of the age to me.

1 Cor 10: 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Acts 2: 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

Heb 1: has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.Heb 9: He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

James 5: Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

 

[PlainWord]

The destruction of the temple in no way fits the criteria of Great tribulation, such as the world has not seen from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again. Jesus is referring to the wrath of God and the reign of the beast during that last seven years and specifically during the last 3 1/2 years. You have no idea of the wrath of God and that great tribulation that is coming upon the earth. You have greatly watered down God's time of wrath.

Correct. The destruction of the Temple was not the Great Tribulation. The GT was the suffering of the people inside the city before the temple was destroyed. It began when Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman legions just as Jesus said.

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

The GT certainly is the wrath of God poured out upon the wicked Jews inside the city. Deu 28 proves it.

45 “Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you.

Luke also confirms it.

22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

John the Baptist also confirms it:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Jesus confirms it in Luke 19:

43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Paul confirms it in his writings to the Thessalonians.

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There are lots of other passages which teach of the end of the Jewish age too. It was a really, really big deal when after 2,000 years God punished Israel for her wickedness and scattered her for another 2,000 years before recently restoring her. Don't underestimate the importance of this event, the end of the Mosaic Age.

 

[valiant]

Matthew 24:21 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For at that time there will be great tribulation,
the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning
of the world until now and never will again!

Yes there has NEVER been anything like the persecution on the Jews. It began around 68 and has continued to the present day (Luk 21.20-24)

Take the WORST EXAMPLE OF TRIBULATION YOU CAN THINK OF, SUCH AS THE HOLOCUST of the Jews in WWII

That was part of the great tribulation

; and then multiply it by 100 times, which effects ALL unsaved people

No it is only on the Jews.

THEN AND ONLY THEN will you come close to understanding what HE MEANS BY THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

described in Deut 28.15 onwards

 

[PlainWord]

Matthew 24:21 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For at that time there will be great tribulation,
the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning
of the world until now and never will again!


Take the WORST EXAMPLE OF TRIBULATION YOU CAN THINK OF, SUCH AS THE HOLOCUST of the Jews in WWII; and then multiply it by 100 times, which effects ALL unsaved people. THEN AND ONLY THEN will you come close to understanding what HE MEANS BY THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

I call this "Great Tribulation Scope Creep."

16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

How are all the wicked of the world supposed to flee Judea to avoid the GT? Hmmm? Can you really escape the wrath of God?

The truth is, the GT was limited to the unsaved nation of Israel. The saved of Israel were told to flee and they did, to Pella.

 

[valiant]

MORE TWILIGHT ZONE THEOLOGY.Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

The second coming without question

Zechariah 14:3-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.

YHWH goes forward to fight against the nations who had destroyed Jerusalem

[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south'

This took place in history. It is a hazardous earthquake zone.,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

It gave a place for the people of God to flee by as YHWH acted on behalf of His people in 70 ad.,

Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.

YHWH my God will fight on behalf of His people(as He has fought in the past.)

[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening

.

It will be a time when the light of the world will come

[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.

and the light will spread out from Jerusalem to the nations.

[SUP]

9

[/SUP]

On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.

YhWH established the Kingly Rule of God world wide..

It is a clear picture of the coming of the kingly rule of God, at Christ's first coming

 

[VCO]

The horrors of Rosie O'Donnell are enough to scare anyone!

I never thought of that, someone is going to end up right beside her for eternity.

 

[VCO]

I call this "Great Tribulation Scope Creep."

16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

How are all the wicked of the world supposed to flee Judea to avoid the GT? Hmmm? Can you really escape the wrath of God?

The truth is, the GT was limited to the unsaved nation of Israel. The saved of Israel were told to flee and they did, to Pella.

I believe what the BIBLE actuallys so I have no problem understanding what you think in your mind is a contradiction.

THEY ARE SEALED FROM HARM in their mortal bodies.


Revelation 7:3-8 (YLT)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] `Do not injure the land, nor the sea, nor the trees, till we may seal the servants of our God upon their foreheads.'
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I heard the number of those sealed, (one hundred and forty four thousands were sealed out of all the tribes of the sons of Israel):
[SUP]5 [/SUP] of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
[SUP]6 [/SUP] of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Daniel 3:25 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] He exclaimed, “Look! I see four men, not tied, walking around in the fire unharmed; and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”


Revelation 9:4 (RSV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] they were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those of mankind who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads;




Zechariah 14:3-9 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.

 

[Muzungu256]

one thing i can give to bro Ahwatukee is that its true it says great tribulation such that has never been nor shall be and the shall be part well................ i think world war2 was a lot worse for jews than the ad70..............