Not By Works

[Ariel82]

Because people change definitions and want to maintain we are sound legitimate believers,
here is one simple thrust or approach:

If you approve of Paul Ellis, Wommack, escapetoreality web site you are HG.

If the sermon on the mount is condemnation and not freedom, you are HG.

Now I disagree with this theology.
It is pointless discussing minor points of how works are the fruit, when fundamentally
we hold a different view of salvation and spirituality.

Now believers in churches, may not buy into this school of thought, so they may listen
to these preachers but not be part of the theology. I personally could not.

Now what I am getting at is works or righteous walking have different outcomes depending
on your faith view. For some, some believers are not believers so works are impossible.
For some even pleasing God is not possible except by Jesus's covering.

So the question is actually just a device to say you people are legalists.
I have always walked by faith, and good works are the fruit.

But this does not stop people saying I am a works believer.
What I find amusing is as I express my security in the cross not OSAS I must
be evil. And HG lack of morality is appalling. So much denial and simple cover
up with accusations of others being deceivers is obvious fear of discovery.

A faith with no morality is easy believism, because the follower only has their
own personal view to guide them. They hide behind scripture they disown, behind
tradition and culture they despise.

And the response is abuse because they have nothing else.

1. Only Christ righteousness is good enough to gain entrance into heaven.

2. I have yet to see anyone say good works are impossible, so that is a strawmen of your making. Unless you mean that your good works are impossible to earn salvation then it would be a true statement.

3. What do you have faith in if you reject OSAS? What do you mean that you have security in the cross?

4. Drop the hyper grace attacks. If you want to have at it with G777, you can do it in his thread. Otherwise it just mucks up the issues because I know most aren't supporters of the hyper grace movement.

 

[dcontroversal]

Saved by grace thru faith....making faith a verb cemented in belief.

In the grace you are, having been saved OUT OF FAITH, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of GOD, NOT of works lest anyman should boast...

THAT not of YOURSELVES is directed at the FAITH that saves and places one in a POSITION of GRACE....

NICE try, but NO ceeeegar!

 

[blessedjohn80]

The Law is holy but it is passing and obsolete,
The Holy Spirit that is in us Is Holy and Is eternal.

So who leads you? The Holy Spirit (sent by Jesus) or the Law(given through Moses)?

If you are Spirit led you fulfill the law because Jesus is greater than the Law.

Jesus did not live under the law but lived by faith and fulfilled it.

There's a reason why Jesus left the Holy Spirit when He ascended and not the Law of Moses.

But those who can't see the truth is because you are still under a veil,

"But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away." -2 Corinthians 3:14

The scripture above also suggests that those under the new covenant are the ones who truly see the truth because they are the ones who do everything only in Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

Saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is crystal clear and it does not mean saved through faith "infused" with works or saved through faith "conjoined" with works or saved through faith plus "these" works and just not "those" works, as various works-salvationists have taught.

AMEN.....no matter how the workers for slice, dice, embellish, add to, and or twist the scripture....WORKS will never save, keep saved or embellish the faith that saves........a very, very tragic day coming for those who boast and or trust into a faith/works blend for salvation.........the reason the word used is PLENTEOUS in NUMBER that comes before the throne only to be denied entrance and cast from the presence of JESUS is because most so called Christian denominations teach a watered down cafe blend of faith plus works for salvation......Galatians makes it clear, Ephesians makes it clear, Romans makes it clear, John makes it clear that SALVATION is based upon faith and faith alone.....

Faith alone to save--->biblical

Faith plus works to save or keep saved-->FALSE, NO power to save, double cursed<---those who believe called fools and bewitched

Works to save----> FALSE, NO power to save<--ALL who push identified with CAIN in Jude as a false teacher

 

[Grace777x70]

All born-again Christians are pure in heart. It's the same reason why all water is wet. It's the very nature of it.

Thank God that the gospel of the grace of Christ has given us believers a new heart which is pure because it is in Christ!

I believe that scripture teaches that we have new hearts now in Christ as a new creation in Him.

In the Old Testament David cried out prophetically - looking into this New Covenant and sais - "Create in me a clean heart O God". Jesus Himself says to "clean up the inside of the cup and the vessel will be clean".

We don't need to search our hearts for wrong things - we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ living in us now.

It's the flesh that "speaks" to us as all the "works" in Gal 5 are from the flesh. We are not "in the flesh" as Paul says in Romans 8:9 - but we are "in the Spirit" - our inner man in Christ.

We need as Christians to learn to live from this new heart that was "created" in us because of Christ's finished work for us.

I firmly believe we are confusing the "desires of the flesh which still has the law of sin in it" ( Romans 7:23 ) and wrongly calling it our heart.

We have been circumcised with the circumcision of the heart - called the circumcision of Christ and the body of flesh. Col 2:11. This is also called "being sealed by the Holy Spirit" Eph 1:13

The Holy Spirit "cut away" ( as in physical circumcision ) the body of the flesh from the inner man who is in Christ - the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:23

Here are the reasons why I believe we Christians have a new heart now in Christ and not a corrupted heart. We need to learn how to live from this new heart which is where Christ is in us as one spirit by the Holy Spirit.

The believers new heart in Christ is created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )


Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.

Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.

Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.

2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.

Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

God has cleansed our hearts by faith.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

We love from our hearts now as it is pure.

1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. (this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )

1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.

There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.

We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.

 

[dcontroversal]

Do you believe that your good works save you?

The whole point of the thread is to say that you can only be saved by Faith in JESUS Christ alone. He must be the foundation of your faith. Good works will follow but are not what saves you or keeps you saved.walking with Jesus and relying on Him is the key to salvation.

This conversation is odd because it seems like we are talking but you never seem to actually get what is being said.

The bible is clear.....except one be born from above they will have no abilty to rightly divide and or understand the truth.....Paul was clear...ALL who believe or teach a cafe blend of faith plus works for salvation (to gain or keep) have been bewitched and fooled by a false gospel which has NO power to save---> a false gospel which is double cursed......end of story.....Salvation is the beginning.....if one does not come by the ONE and only ONE door....they will NOT be born again from above.....end of story....a hard truth, but true nonetheless!

 

[dcontroversal]

The bible is clear.....except one be born from above they will have no abilty to rightly divide and or understand the truth.....Paul was clear...ALL who believe or teach a cafe blend of faith plus works for salvation (to gain or keep) have been bewitched and fooled by a false gospel which has NO power to save---> a false gospel which is double cursed......end of story.....Salvation is the beginning.....if one does not come by the ONE and only ONE door....they will NOT be born again from above.....end of story....a hard truth, but true nonetheless!

Amen brother.......the scriptures make this ALL as plain as day.........We have been born from above, our spirit is eternally saved, sealed, justified ad sanctified in Christ "positionally" and yet we still have to contend with the flesh which requires a daily process of sanctification and transformation I.E> Romans 12:1-2......being transformed by the renewing of the mind....changed outwardly because of the inward change that has taken place in Christ....the renewing of the mind by a steady diet of the word of God........!

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen DCON!

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

The true way of transformation in Christ is by "beholding" the glory of the Lord as in a mirror. When we see the glory of the Lord we are transformed by the Holy Spirit.

"Transformed" is in the passive mood which mean the Holy Spirit changes us to reveal the life of Christ that is in us outwardly so that others can see Christ. We participate with the Spirit of God within us in this.

We participate in this with Him "For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Phil. 2:13

This "putting on of Christ" is paramount in order for others to see the real Christ that is in us. This being transformed is seen as renewing the mind to the truth of Christ and all that He has done. Romans 12:2

The real question is - just what is the "glory of the Lord"?

Glory which is "doxa" in Greek means "weight; the value indicated on a scale when a commodity would be weighed in the market place." When there was no scale which could measure the weight of a commodity. It was considered as "doxa".

"Doxa" is a reading that is beyond the scale. It is a "good opinion" in meaning also.

When you rest in God's opinion of you, when you are persuaded of His persuasion, when you accept His acceptance, and you believe in His belief of you, you are beholding and living in the "glory" of God. It's a manifestation of His goodness as He showed Moses when he asked to see His glory. God showed him His goodness.

He has completely and unconditionally given Himself over to you and He has revealed His love and grace in the Lord Jesus Christ. Does this want to make us go out and sin all we want? No, a thousand times No!

It makes our hearts melt in love for Him as we see Him for who He truly is and run to the One who loves us and gave His life for us. We have died and our true life is hidden with Christ in God. Col. 3:3

 

[dcontroversal]

Well, back from my 28 day trip to Australia....spent 26 of that is Australia....love Stralia, the people, the country and the food.......19,000 miles or roughly 30,500 KM round trip from St. Louis to Sydney in New South Wales and back to St. Louis......plus a 2100 mile flight from Sydney to Cairns and back to Sydney for 9 days in Queensland.....I definitely have jet lag today HAHA.....I miss J.T.S....!

 

[Ariel82]

I find the phrase "putting on Christ" offensive because it makes it sound like Jesus is a suit of clothes.

I also think you are inaccurately using the word doxa and request your sources for that definition, G777

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g1391

God's glory is not his "good opinion" of us. God's glory is so much more than that.

 

[Grace777x70]

Romans 13:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But put on ( Greek = enduo ) the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

1730. ἐνδύω verb

Dress, clothe oneself, put on.

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Delta-Epsilon.


According to classical usage enduō especially describes the “putting on” of clothes.

The Septuagint uses to translate lāvēsh Hebrew which refers to the putting on of a garment or to wearing clothes

In the New Testament enduō was sometimes used in the literal sense of being clothed with a garment. “To dress” or the concept of putting on clothes is reflected in passages like Mark 6:9 and Acts 12:21.



Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Delta-Epsilon.

 

[Ariel82]

Romans 13
11Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. 12The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. 14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.

The armor of light is refering to the spiritual armor God has given us.

Ephesians 6

10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,

 

[Ariel82]

2 Corthinians 3
9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

12Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16But when onec turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lordd is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,e are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another.f For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

 

[Grace777x70]

The Greek noun [FONT="Gentium" !important]doxa[/FONT] is derived from the verb [FONT="Gentium" !important]dokeō[/FONT] (1374), “to consider, to believe, to think.” The sense of the noun in classical Greek thus becomes: “belief, opinion,” and later “reputation.” The “opinion” a person has about something may be involved, or it may refer to a belief someone has about another.

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Delta-Epsilon.

God's good opinion of us is that He loves us dearly and considers us His own treasure and possession. We are His beloved.

Abraham gave "glory" to God by believing in what God had said about him and that God would give him a son. Rom. 4:20

Of course God's glory has many, many facets to it. But in connection to "beholding the glory of the Lord. " - it is to do with how we see ourselves in Christ because we see Him.. Beholding Christ brings transformation.

Being humble means to agree with what God says is true about us because of Christ's work.

 

[Grace777x70]

We are saved by the life of the Lord Jesus Christ which is in us in our new creation. We are now learning how to walk by the spirit - which is our spirit in union with Christ by the Holy Spirit ( whom Jesus said would be in us forever - John 14:16 ).

Romans 5:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Living by the flesh does not stop making us a new creation in Christ. It makes us deceived by sin and distorts our view of the Lord's love and grace towards God Himself, others and ourselves.

I have found the very same thing happening in my life. The more I see Christ and what He has done - and the more I agree with His work - the more He becomes manifested in my life and the things of the flesh just have fallen off like dead leaves on a branch.

Transformation is really the emerging new man that is in Christ being manifested in our bodies while we are here on this earth.

This transformation of what already is in us in Christ in our new creation ( It is not called a "new evolution" ) can be seen by man as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us. Rom. 12:2

We are simply "being" who we already are when we "put on Christ".

The new man in Christ is like the invisible man - when he put clothes on, people could then see him. We put on Christ and people see the new man in Christ manifested and God gets glorified.

This all happens by grace through faith in what Christ has done and we participate in it with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He will be faithful to us. Phil. 2:13

As we learn to walk by the spirit instead of the flesh - then we experience God's kind of life in our lives.

Bump....this is what I believe. Others are free to believe something different if they chose. We all have our own walk with the Lord. We can trust Him to lead us in the way we are to go....

Ok..I'm off for the day. Going to play some pickleball. Be good to each other.

 

[Ariel82]

1 Corinthians 13:12 ►
New International Version
For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 

[blue_ladybug]

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[Ariel82]

The Greek noun [FONT="Gentium" !important]doxa[/FONT] is derived from the verb [FONT="Gentium" !important]dokeō[/FONT] (1374), “to consider, to believe, to think.” The sense of the noun in classical Greek thus becomes: “belief, opinion,” and later “reputation.” The “opinion” a person has about something may be involved, or it may refer to a belief someone has about another.

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Delta-Epsilon.

God's good opinion of us is that He loves us dearly and considers us His own treasure and possession. We are His beloved.

Abraham gave "glory" to God by believing in what God had said about him and that God would give him a son. Rom. 4:20

Of course God's glory has many, many facets to it. But in connection to "beholding the glory of the Lord. " - it is to do with how we see ourselves in Christ because we see Him.. Beholding Christ brings transformation.

Being humble means to agree with what God says is true about us because of Christ's work.

I don't know if I would call that humble.

I agree it is important to see ourselves as God sees us.

However God's glory shouldn't be brought down to the level of our glory.

I believe the passage is saying God will elevate our current glory and holiness (he said the old covenant had a type of glory) up to His level of holiness or more specifically the glory of what Christ did for us upon the cross.

Being humble is knowing that on our own we could never reach sinless perfection but through Christ We can live blameless godly lives, washed in his blood, led by His Spirit.

 

[Ariel82]

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Lol. Love you blue.

 

[dcontroversal]

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Been wondering what has happened to you....I like your sword swinging and defense of the truth against the "hairy ticks"........HAHA