Not By Works

Ariel82 · Jun 5, 2017

Paul's letter to the Colossians was written to combat the gnostic heresy.

What Was the Colossian Heresy? - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Allowing general characteristics found within most varieties of Gnosticism:
The following may be regarded as the chief points in the Gnostic systems:
(1) a claim on the part of the initiated to a special knowledge of the truth; a tendency to regard knowledge as superior to faith and as the special possession of the more enlightened, for ordinary Christians did not possess this secret and higher doctrine;
(2) the essential separation of matter and spirit, matter being intrinsically evil and the source from which all evil has arisen;
(3) an attempt to solve the problems of creation and the origin of evil by postulating a demiurge, i.e., a creator or artificer of the world distinct from the deity, and emanations extending between God and the visible universe (the demiurge for the Gnostics being the God of the OT, an inferior being infinitely remote from the Supreme Being who can have nothing to do with anything material);
(4) a denial of the true humanity of Christ; a docetic Christology which considered the earthly life of Christ and especially His sufferings on the cross to be unreal;
(5) the denial of the personality of the Supreme God, and also the denial of the free will of mankind;
(6) the teaching, on the one hand, of asceticism as the means of attaining spiritual communion with God, and, on the other hand, of an indifference that led directly to licentiousness;
(7) a syncretistic tendency that combined certain more or less misunderstood Christian doctrines and various elements from oriental, Jewish, Greek, and other sources;
(8) ascription of the OT to the demiurge or inferior creator of the world.
Some of these ideas are more obvious in one and some of them in another of the Gnostic systems. (pp. 486-487, vol. 2, "Gnosticism")

Stephen63 · Jun 5, 2017

dcontroversal said:

"Yeah..... I can tell you who's saved & who's not, cause I'm right & have the spirit of discernment & all knowledge....."

Uh-huh..... suuure.

Stephen63 · Jun 5, 2017

Stephen63 said:

Correction..... Paul did talk about the gnostics in Colossians.

Ariel82 · Jun 5, 2017

PeterJens said:

You saw a program?

Yes folks do teach easy believism. Especially tv preachers who are part of the Word of Faith claim it and name it, sow money to make money false teachers.

I already said we had some on CC who are WOF believers.

However, I don't think BillG, Dcon, EG, Blue lady big or Magenta qualify.

.The rest I would have to converse more with to decide either way.

Do you believe that your good works save you?

The whole point of the thread is to say that you can only be saved by Faith in JESUS Christ alone. He must be the foundation of your faith. Good works will follow but are not what saves you or keeps you saved.walking with Jesus and relying on Him is the key to salvation.

This conversation is odd because it seems like we are talking but you never seem to actually get what is being said.

NoNameMcgee · Jun 5, 2017

slave said:

Pleasing the Lord should be the great ambition of every believers heart. Pleasing the Lord is not only to be a primary aim of all of His Children, but something at which we should all seek to excel, not to be accepted (alone),but because we love the Lord and because of future rewards. Ability to please the Lord is ultimately the result of His work in our lives as the Great Shepard. But this is where it comes,and it flows thru by, but not where it ends, for in our New miraculously transformed Christ-like self we are to seek to please God by doing as He wills. The credit is always His but the results will be in us doing it in Him.

Pleasing the Lord begins in the heart or inner person (our spirit) for this is where we think, while the brain is the result of our spiritual communication between His Spirit and ours. Now, the brain is to work hard too, but from the premise, then, of the spirits input only and not our knowledge first. A key element in righteous living.Our minds must be placed by us in the Lord therefore. Thus, it is from spirit we gain knowledge and understanding to be able to please Him in all respects.

When we fail to please Him, therefore, we ultimately become hostile; or at least, useless not only to God, but to man. It is not selfish, as we are in Christ, to count on future rewards, after our first love of Christ, to be a constant source of motivation. We, actually, are warned of entanglements which would hinder our capacity to please God.

Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the lord Jesus, that as you have received from us as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you may excel still more......not in lustful passion like the Gentiles who do not know God. (1 Thess. 4:1,5).

...equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, thru Jesus Christ to whom be the glory forever and ever. (Hebrews 13:21).

For you were formally Darkness; but now you are the light in the Lord, walk as Children of Light (for the fruit of the Light (consists) in all goodness and righteousness and truth, trying to learn (a change in behavior) what is pleasing to the Lord. (Ephesians 5:8-10).

For this reason, also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual Wisdom and Understanding, so that you (may) walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in knowledge of God. (Col. 1:9-10).

...and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:8).

For the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness (a right (properly aligned) relationship with God) and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (not simply from the Holy Spirit). For he who is in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. (Romans 14:17-18).

Therefore also we have as our ambition (never self ambition, but our New Christ-like dispositional ambition) whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to God. (2 Corinthians 5:9).

..so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the days of Christ. (Philippians 1:10).

but when our works are good...

isnt this a direct result of the holy spirit working in us?

isnt this something WE should be thankful for?

Romans 04:4

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.”

i dont disagree with what you say

we will be rewarded for being good children

but...

isnt it truely God who does all good

dcontroversal · Jun 5, 2017

Stephen63 said:

Maybe you can understand this...works are works REGARDLESS of hw you label them....NOT by WORKS of righteousness which we have done COVERS ANY AND ALL WORKS that are RIGHTEOUS.....and if the WORKS of the LAW will not save NO WORK will save!

dcontroversal · Jun 5, 2017

Stephen63 said:

I never said that nor implied anything you just embellished my quote with...my statement was valid regardless of your vitriol and bloviating.......!

And for you to make this statement proves your just posting to be argumentative and divisive....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

If one who is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the prepayment of our eternal inheritance....they are not saved and can never lead or live a godly life in Christ!

dcontroversal · Jun 5, 2017

Ariel82 said:

Absolutely.................100% agree!

dcontroversal · Jun 5, 2017

Ariel82 said:

Imagine these simplistic statements received by the Lord.....and what he states about them....and for the record.....the word of faith.....these name it claim it guys miss the mark..............on the other hand......the following....

Lord, remember me in your kingdom..

Be merciful unto me a sinner..

Amongst others.........

dcontroversal · Jun 5, 2017

NoNameMcgee said:

What we been saying.....Saved by faith and faith alone....Jesus works in us and through us dia the word and guidance of the Holy Spirit....<---the result of the salvation, faith and born again spirit we already possess in Christ!

slave · Jun 5, 2017

NoNameMcgee said:

Thats all true, but let me ask you a practical question, "When you look down at your feet, regardless of who deserves credit for all good things in your life which James also eludes to, aren't your shoes dirty too?" I'm not referencing your 'spiritual prowess', but your 'humble obedience' to the God's spiritual prowess that you agreed with to walk into the world and trusted Him to draw all men unto Himself as you simply lifted Him up; actually doing so.

We are co-workers with Christ. But always as He is God, and we His Children working as we live by the spirit only now in accordance to righteousness. Thus, we are Christ-like in our disposition, always able to please God and accomplish His will if we succor ourselves to righteousness (A right relationship to God).

I cannot take any credit for my life, but I can take the credit God deserves and boast about it as I have victory over sins and in accomplishing His purposes and intentions spilling all of my strength in my love for Him. Why need I do that? Don't rob God's glory for actually transforming your life in the way your body now has gone from evil to being a bondservant to righteousness and showing His victories in the streets and your home and church and in the private times when no one is watching. This is Spiritual Truth in accomplishing His will and in the area of overcoming sins.

They are both part an parcel to His grace and power to transform your life in miraculous realness: Able to do His will and able to conquer sins, as we process righteousness; and He grows us up in the experiential side of our regeneration ending in His glory being seen, not ours. So as we humble and submit to God and people we won't be taking a bow on earth ever even though we will know of the level of our thankfulness., just hoot and hauler in honor of His name for your real victories, and don't be afraid to accept Gods promise of Him sharing His glory with those whom are in heaven. Smile.

slave · Jun 5, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Saved by grace thru faith....making faith a verb cemented in belief.

PeterJens · Jun 6, 2017

Ariel82 said:

Because people change definitions and want to maintain we are sound legitimate believers,
here is one simple thrust or approach:

If you approve of Paul Ellis, Wommack, escapetoreality web site you are HG.

If the sermon on the mount is condemnation and not freedom, you are HG.

Now I disagree with this theology.
It is pointless discussing minor points of how works are the fruit, when fundamentally
we hold a different view of salvation and spirituality.

Now believers in churches, may not buy into this school of thought, so they may listen
to these preachers but not be part of the theology. I personally could not.

Now what I am getting at is works or righteous walking have different outcomes depending
on your faith view. For some, some believers are not believers so works are impossible.
For some even pleasing God is not possible except by Jesus's covering.

So the question is actually just a device to say you people are legalists.
I have always walked by faith, and good works are the fruit.

But this does not stop people saying I am a works believer.
What I find amusing is as I express my security in the cross not OSAS I must
be evil. And HG lack of morality is appalling. So much denial and simple cover
up with accusations of others being deceivers is obvious fear of discovery.

A faith with no morality is easy believism, because the follower only has their
own personal view to guide them. They hide behind scripture they disown, behind
tradition and culture they despise.

And the response is abuse because they have nothing else.

PeterJens · Jun 6, 2017

The evil of defining what people believe

Somehow asking people what they believe and then writing this down is evil.
Linking someone to the preachers and sermons they post as examples is evil.
Defining and presenting beliefs in a different perspective is evil.

I am guilty of doing this, it is called evangelism and understanding other people.
Exegesis of scripture dictates this process is gone through carefully.

I have to be fair. I work through a theology or philosophy and identify a core
problem in its construction and bring it to light. This is obviously painful for those
who hold to this theology or belief, as they themselves have to explain it away.

So many hold to a faith with no morality, no written code of what is acceptable
behaviour and what is not. This is only a problem is the God being spoken for
is the most Holy moral being in the universe and spells out acceptable behaviour
and displeasing behaviour to the most precise and clear ways possible.

Man is so keen on freedom, any hope of a none declarative acceptance will be
taken especially from those who have spent their lives counting conformity as
their only motivation in life.

PeterJens · Jun 6, 2017

Ariel82 said:

This program was followed the new heart from heaven theology, that is perfect
immortal and never lost. It was 100% HG gnostic ideas.

Page upon page of contributors have said it is so easy to come to faith.
Just believe Christ has done everything and just accept it.

It is so easy and unbelievable the argument goes, that is why it is rejected.

This is easy believism. You do not get any easier than this.

The problem is the believers who wish to follow this need to appear legitimate.
So they will take on all the beliefs and ideas they once had as if they still follow
them, when in reality once you are locked in, nothing else matters.

This is like all mirage beliefs, it morphs depending on the criticism to appear legitimate,
and the reason they hate definitions, is because once made you have to stick with them.

So you can both say knowing Jesus is so easy, yet if you do not hold this or this or this
view you are not actually born again and saved but a worker.

And the biggest joke of all, you are saved, except years later you turn out not to be because
you do x, it is all a waste of time. X is normally falling away, apostating, believing in being
righteous, or something they seriously disagree with. It actually means security and sealing is
not so certain, lol.

mailmandan · Jun 6, 2017

Saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is crystal clear and it does not mean saved through faith "infused" with works or saved through faith "conjoined" with works or saved through faith plus "these" works and just not "those" works, as various works-salvationists have taught.

BillG · Jun 6, 2017

I am a wysiwyg person

Grace777x70 · Jun 6, 2017

What is "appalling" is those that accuse others of morality that is appalling and then in the very same breathe have called others various names like, heretic, satanic, lover of sinning, hater of God's word, delusional and insulted them in every form possible.

Then the next breath say "What a King, and praise God". It is ironic that some of the very ones that say we are to walk in righteousness and purity of heart have the most foul behavior towards others in the body of Christ.

James 3:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

In their own religion - they would condemn themselves to hell - thank God for the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ. Thank God - the sons of disobedience are those that have never received Christ and obtained the forgiveness of sins that is theirs because of what Christ ahs already done.

Colossians 3:5-8 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

[SUP]6 [/SUP] For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.

Ariel82 · Jun 6, 2017

PeterJens said:

You are sealed by the Holy spirit, not man-made doctrines.

You still viewing others beliefs based on their nonacceptance of you?

Do you have siblings?

When a kid tells his brother or sister "this is my mom/dad not yours", should you listen to the kid or your Dad?

Should you lash out and beat your brother for "lying" or should you show more maturity?

I believe in eternal security but also believe on God can reveal who is His kids through the assurance of the Holy Spirit. Some people think they are saved, when they really are not.others think they aren't when God is telling them they are.

All of God's kids have humble and contrite spirits who seek to do God's will and bring glory to Him.

Folks can be at different stages of maturity, but all God's kids have the Holy Spirit that tells them they are His beloved kids and that He will never leave or abandon them.

Ariel82 · Jun 6, 2017

PeterJens said:

Because people change definitions and want to maintain we are sound legitimate believers,
here is one simple thrust or approach:

If you approve of Paul Ellis, Wommack, escapetoreality web site you are HG.

If the sermon on the mount is condemnation and not freedom, you are HG.

Now I disagree with this theology.
It is pointless discussing minor points of how works are the fruit, when fundamentally
we hold a different view of salvation and spirituality.

Now believers in churches, may not buy into this school of thought, so they may listen
to these preachers but not be part of the theology. I personally could not.

Now what I am getting at is works or righteous walking have different outcomes depending
on your faith view. For some, some believers are not believers so works are impossible.
For some even pleasing God is not possible except by Jesus's covering.

So the question is actually just a device to say you people are legalists.
I have always walked by faith, and good works are the fruit.

But this does not stop people saying I am a works believer.
What I find amusing is as I express my security in the cross not OSAS I must
be evil. And HG lack of morality is appalling. So much denial and simple cover
up with accusations of others being deceivers is obvious fear of discovery.

A faith with no morality is easy believism, because the follower only has their
own personal view to guide them. They hide behind scripture they disown, behind
tradition and culture they despise.

And the response is abuse because they have nothing else.

Do you believe that your good works save you?

The whole point of the thread is to say that you can only be saved by Faith in JESUS Christ alone. He must be the foundation of your faith. Good works will follow but are not what saves you or keeps you saved.walking with Jesus and relying on Him is the key to salvation.

This conversation is odd because it seems like we are talking but you never seem to actually get what is being said.

Not By Works

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