Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree that hyper grace is wrong. However so is legalism and works salvation (which is what this thread is standing against).

How do you define hyper grace? I know it as teaching a lictenious doctrine that tells people they can sin or doctrines like the word of Faith false gospel.

However I disagree that most teach hyper grace.

God's grace is biblical and I believe that many are trying to teach that biblical grace that not only changes hearts but also lives and give the ability to overcome sin.

The only thing I can think of is that you have a different definition for that term?

PS. I only read half of G777 posts. They tend to give me a headache. He talks funny but once I figure out what he is saying it's not completely wrong. You just have to have him clarify his ...interesting usage of certain words.

hypergrace, as spoken by the people who preach it believes the same gospel as you. Where they go off is on word of faith.. But the wof doctrine is about healing and getting things, not salvation.

 

[PeterJens]

I agree that hyper grace is wrong. However so is legalism and works salvation (which is what this thread is standing against).

How do you define hyper grace? I know it as teaching a lictenious doctrine that tells people they can sin or doctrines like the word of Faith false gospel.

However I disagree that most teach hyper grace.

God's grace is biblical and I believe that many are trying to teach that biblical grace that not only changes hearts but also lives and give the ability to overcome sin.

The only thing I can think of is that you have a different definition for that term?

PS. I only read half of G777 posts. They tend to give me a headache. He talks funny but once I figure out what he is saying it's not completely wrong. You just have to have him clarify his ...interesting usage of certain words.

If you think g7 is ok, God help you. He is 100% hg and never faulters.
Because they mix language and reinterpret so much, what they mean by what they say is
different than how you read it. So they may sound 100% down the road until you see what
they mean themselves.

And I hate to say this, but you are like a lamb to the slaughter in their way of thinking.
It is why you get this confusing situation I can be opposing an obvious heresy while they
will say, no we do not teach that we teach this. But in reality if you speak modern evangelical
theology they do not mean what they are saying but a longer, refined and filtered version.

So I repent of having water with my food and have lemonade. Now to me this is rediculous
and to most believers, but thread after thread this use of repent was used.

Or grief for sin. I have been rebuked as it being wrong to have sorrow, deep weeping and
wailing over sin, but should rejoice in Christs victory and forgiveness. Now again this is not
the same meaning evangelicals would put on this as demonstrated in James.

Then you go to the authority of the sermon on the mount. Again totally different. Spoken
to the jews so OT and not binding on any believers behaviour. They view it merely as condemnation
to point to Jesus and not a guide to standing on the rock and founding our very spiritual existance
on.

So I do not understand you compromise at all, to any level. You claim to believe theologically
similarly to me, except for security, yet you compromise with people who deny our very faith.

So I wonder as many before me, how easily you get taken in.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think some people need to worry about their own internal salvation and stop worrying about others. Especially when they prove over and over, they do not even understand what the other believes.

Its like a mechanic trying to tell a doctor how he should do surgery, or the doctor trying to tell the mechanic how he should work in the car. We need to worry about our selves, and let God worry about others.

in the meantime we can discuss things.. But only if we do this, otherwise, we will always be trying to tell the other what they believe,

 

[PeterJens]

hypergrace, as spoken by the people who preach it believes the same gospel as you. Where they go off is on word of faith.. But the wof doctrine is about healing and getting things, not salvation.

Now here is an obvious variation between this school of theology.
Not all preach the same doctrines or are consistent in the same way.

This is similar to vineyard groups, or Bethel style groups. Each has their own
take on the mixture of doctrines and some are more straight evangelical than others.

It makes it confusing then when you talk a school of theology and apply it to certain
churches. It does not necessarily follow as each group is totally independent of the
others, so have great variation in teaching.

So some who were Latter reign followers still agreed with me on the basic core
approaches except for the end times view. Others are fully into open heaven and
angels.

It is not surprising then there is confusion even among people who would claim to
be in the same general camp, lol.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now here is an obvious variation between this school of theology.
Not all preach the same doctrines or are consistent in the same way.

This is similar to vineyard groups, or Bethel style groups. Each has their own
take on the mixture of doctrines and some are more straight evangelical than others.

It makes it confusing then when you talk a school of theology and apply it to certain
churches. It does not necessarily follow as each group is totally independent of the
others, so have great variation in teaching.

So some who were Latter reign followers still agreed with me on the basic core
approaches except for the end times view. Others are fully into open heaven and
angels.

It is not surprising then there is confusion even among people who would claim to
be in the same general camp, lol.

There are three gospels being taught.

1. Liscentiousness. I just have to believe Jesus died, and i will be saved, i do not have to do anything, or change, i can live however I want.

They claim to have faith, but their faith is dead. James and Jude spoke of them, as did Paul. They are lost

2. Legalism, Salvation is based on the cr5oss plus my work, I may be saved by faith, but my salvation is not assured, i have to work hard to keep my salvation, because it can be lost. These people also lost, because they are no f=different than the Jew trying to add works of the law to grace, Paul said they are foolish. And must be anathemas.

3. Salvation by grace through faith alone in the work of God alone. These people are born again, Thus given the power and spirit of God,. They will work, They will follow Gods commands, Because they love the god who saved them, when they KNOW they deserve condemnation, thus they are grateful to God for all they have.

Yet their are how many denominations? Most denominations different on other doctrines which do not pertain to the gospel. Or in the way they hold church service. But thats it.

Thats why 4 different denominations can teach different things, but as long as they hold to faith in the one true gospel. They are saved.

The problem is, people want to hold denominations as all being different, if this is true, which denomination gets to heaven, because they rest go to hell. It would be good to know which 0one is true.

 

[PeterJens]

I do wonder if some individuals are so stuck in their own mindsets they think
they define everyone elses.

The two statements cannot go together.

"I know it as teaching a lictenious doctrine" & "believes the same gospel as you"

This is basically a miss-understanding and communication. I see this all the time.
Bland statements from different people which obviously mean different things are said
to be the same, while similar statements are said to be polar opposites.

This is just antagonistic language using emotional contacts and force of personality
to push through an idea. And unfortunately some fall for it. But it is always only the
niave.

Like calling someone from satan and going to hell because of some secondary issue.
Wind-up or what????

 

[limey410]

There are three gospels being taught.

1. Liscentiousness. I just have to believe Jesus died, and i will be saved, i do not have to do anything, or change, i can live however I want.

They claim to have faith, but their faith is dead. James and Jude spoke of them, as did Paul. They are lost

2. Legalism, Salvation is based on the cr5oss plus my work, I may be saved by faith, but my salvation is not assured, i have to work hard to keep my salvation, because it can be lost. These people also lost, because they are no f=different than the Jew trying to add works of the law to grace, Paul said they are foolish. And must be anathemas.

3. Salvation by grace through faith alone in the work of God alone. These people are born again, Thus given the power and spirit of God,. They will work, They will follow Gods commands, Because they love the god who saved them, when they KNOW they deserve condemnation, thus they are grateful to God for all they have.

Yet their are how many denominations? Most denominations different on other doctrines which do not pertain to the gospel. Or in the way they hold church service. But thats it.

Thats why 4 different denominations can teach different things, but as long as they hold to faith in the one true gospel. They are saved.

The problem is, people want to hold denominations as all being different, if this is true, which denomination gets to heaven, because they rest go to hell. It would be good to know which 0one is true.

If we have the core fundamental down (#3), God will complete the work He has started. If He is saying I will complete, then that means he hasn't finished yet. Ergo we will all continue to grow in maturity if we rely on Him to reveal the truth. Doctrinal differences aside, theological differences aside, we will see eternal life with God. The understanding we hold to determines when that eternal life with God is realized. Now, as we continue to live our physical life, or later when we physically die. Personally my relationship is now.

 

[PeterJens]

There are three gospels being taught.

1. Liscentiousness. I just have to believe Jesus died, and i will be saved, i do not have to do anything, or change, i can live however I want.

They claim to have faith, but their faith is dead. James and Jude spoke of them, as did Paul. They are lost

2. Legalism, Salvation is based on the cr5oss plus my work, I may be saved by faith, but my salvation is not assured, i have to work hard to keep my salvation, because it can be lost. These people also lost, because they are no f=different than the Jew trying to add works of the law to grace, Paul said they are foolish. And must be anathemas.

3. Salvation by grace through faith alone in the work of God alone. These people are born again, Thus given the power and spirit of God,. They will work, They will follow Gods commands, Because they love the god who saved them, when they KNOW they deserve condemnation, thus they are grateful to God for all they have.

Yet their are how many denominations? Most denominations different on other doctrines which do not pertain to the gospel. Or in the way they hold church service. But thats it.

Thats why 4 different denominations can teach different things, but as long as they hold to faith in the one true gospel. They are saved.

The problem is, people want to hold denominations as all being different, if this is true, which denomination gets to heaven, because they rest go to hell. It would be good to know which 0one is true.

This would be too large a subject to take on here but the above not clear enough.
100% of evangelical protestant churches would hold to salvation by faith alone.

Where the difference is in future sin forgiven and the testimony of a transformed life.
Until this level of honesty can be reached, there cannot be much dialogue.

We had some catholics join our church. The wife was concerned her husband would not
see the life in our church but like the symbolism within catholicism.

We have opened our arms to both of them and they now come regularly.
The problem in very formal churches is the words are said without understanding or heart
response, but the words are actually stunning. When people wake up to the words, the lack
of life and heart response means they seek out believers to have fellowship with, the word
of life. It is the life that speaks more than theology, and the heart response in praise and
worship to the Living King that is our life blood. Amen

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This would be too large a subject to take on here but the above not clear enough.
100% of evangelical protestant churches would hold to salvation by faith alone.

Where the difference is in future sin forgiven and the testimony of a transformed life.
Until this level of honesty can be reached, there cannot be much dialogue.

We had some catholics join our church. The wife was concerned her husband would not
see the life in our church but like the symbolism within catholicism.

We have opened our arms to both of them and they now come regularly.
The problem in very formal churches is the words are said without understanding or heart
response, but the words are actually stunning. When people wake up to the words, the lack
of life and heart response means they seek out believers to have fellowship with, the word
of life. It is the life that speaks more than theology, and the heart response in praise and
worship to the Living King that is our life blood. Amen

we agree. Most, if not all denominations teach faith alone.

We also agree that just because they hold to it does not mean they teach it.

So who teaches faith alone? Those who hold to faith alone. Or those who hold that faith alone is not enough, that we must also earn it.. That Eternal life is not eternal. It is conditional. That salvation which God gave by faith alone can be lost.

which one are you peter? Are you faith alone through grace alone. Or one who believes we are saved by grace through faith, but the cross is not enough,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If we have the core fundamental down (#3), God will complete the work He has started. If He is saying I will complete, then that means he hasn't finished yet. Ergo we will all continue to grow in maturity if we rely on Him to reveal the truth. Doctrinal differences aside, theological differences aside, we will see eternal life with God. The understanding we hold to determines when that eternal life with God is realized. Now, as we continue to live our physical life, or later when we physically die. Personally my relationship is now.

Amen, this is what Holds a person of faith secure in christ, They trust God not only to save them, but keep them saved.

If one thinks they have to keep themselves saved, Then who is their faith truly in? God, or themself?

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Good works accompany our precious faith. Faith comes first, and good works follow. Works without faith is dead just as faith without works is dead.

If God has drawn us with the cords of love and called us to make peace with all men (if possible) should that not be reflected in our words and actions?

1 Peter 1:15-16
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

John 20:21
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do wonder if some individuals are so stuck in their own mindsets they think
they define everyone elses.

The two statements cannot go together.

"I know it as teaching a lictenious doctrine" & "believes the same gospel as you"

This is basically a miss-understanding and communication. I see this all the time.
Bland statements from different people which obviously mean different things are said
to be the same, while similar statements are said to be polar opposites.

This is just antagonistic language using emotional contacts and force of personality
to push through an idea. And unfortunately some fall for it. But it is always only the
niave.

Like calling someone from satan and going to hell because of some secondary issue.
Wind-up or what????

1. Where did you get this from? I think your twisting again. I do not see where it was posted

2. Please stop it. You blame everyone for misunderstanding you, When you continually prove you misunderstand them.

 

[BillG]

hAHA LISTEN TO YOU.....Why are YOU going at me says you with your war paint avitar... i am doctrinated now which is a reality of cc..

You are doctrinated also..

Your doctrin is one that defends people seeing bad in Good works...

My doctrin is that sees good in bad.... its that simple and thats why i am at war also.. God bless the king bro..

What a load of tosh.

if you really read my posts then what you have said above is absurd.

I do not defend people seeing bad in good works and I certainly see good in good works. I encourage people to walk in good works, it's our calling, it's my calling and one I seek with a passion and love.

Goods works can only be bad if the motive is bad and self serving.

I see good in bad, never said I don't.
I love people despite their faults.

just clarify for me if you will

"my doctrine is that sees good in bad"

What are you saying? And does it relate to what you consider my indoctrination?

 

[Chris1975]

[SUP]Hebrews 12v4

4 [/SUP]You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.

For the believer....

 

[PeterJens]

I agree that hyper grace is wrong. However so is legalism and works salvation (which is what this thread is standing against).
How do you define hyper grace? I know it as teaching a lictenious doctrine that tells people they can sin or doctrines like the word of Faith false gospel.

However I disagree that most teach hyper grace.

God's grace is biblical and I believe that many are trying to teach that biblical grace that not only changes hearts but also lives and give the ability to overcome sin.

The only thing I can think of is that you have a different definition for that term?

PS. I only read half of G777 posts. They tend to give me a headache. He talks funny but once I figure out what he is saying it's not completely wrong. You just have to have him clarify his ...interesting usage of certain words.

hypergrace, as spoken by the people who preach it believes the same gospel as you. Where they go off is on word of faith.. But the wof doctrine is about healing and getting things, not salvation.

1. Where did you get this from? I think your twisting again. I do not see where it was posted

2. Please stop it. You blame everyone for misunderstanding you, When you continually prove you misunderstand them.

I have highlighted the quotes.
It proves you do not read very well or comprehend. You say I am twisting, yet here is a classic
case of just putting the truth out there.

And you follow this by a command "stop it"

It is not me who miss-understands. You project miles too much.

Having a pure heart and a clear conscience really does help.
May I complement you on not calling me a liar and to repent. It was getting rather old.

 

[PeterJens]

we agree. Most, if not all denominations teach faith alone.

We also agree that just because they hold to it does not mean they teach it.

So who teaches faith alone? Those who hold to faith alone. Or those who hold that faith alone is not enough, that we must also earn it.. That Eternal life is not eternal. It is conditional. That salvation which God gave by faith alone can be lost.

which one are you peter? Are you faith alone through grace alone. Or one who believes we are saved by grace through faith, but the cross is not enough,

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

We repent of our sins, confess them and commit to renounce evil and walk righteously.
We have faith in the cross for the forgiveness of our sins, washed in the blood of Christ, made
pure, holy, blameless and righteous, undefiled, to walk the walk of obedience to Christs commands
empowered by His love and Holy Spirit working in our hearts, changing us from one stage of glory
to the next. Christ is our friend, our Lord and Saviour.

We cannot earn salvation or even choose it, it is given to us, and our hearts respond in faith.
We can choose to reject the word and not let it take hold, but if we do take hold of it we will
be fruitful to the glory of His name, amen.

 

[JIMBO43]

You/we need to realise that we will not agree. It's not getting at the other person unless someone makes it personal.

Agreeing to disagree is ok.

God is the ultimate judge FULL STOP

Firstly you say that you are my friend and that you have pmed me etc to show that you are my friend....

Then you say this.. you will never agree with me... That seems to be your attitude towards me through out our engagements...

You have found fault in almost everything i have said...

So please dont tell me that im the one on the attack to you and that im the one who is upsetting and all the rest of the trash you throw my way ,,,

THE SAYING SPRINGS TO MIND THAT YOU MAY FOOL PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME BUT NOT ALL OF THE TIME..

QUIT PLAYING THE SYMPATHY VOTE BE A MAN AND GROW UP AND FIGHT YOUR OWN BATTLES INSTEAD OF PLAYING ON THE SYMPATHY OF OTHERS..

 

[JIMBO43]

What a load of tosh.

if you really read my posts then what you have said above is absurd.

I do not defend people seeing bad in good works and I certainly see good in good works. I encourage people to walk in good works, it's our calling, it's my calling and one I seek with a passion and love.

Goods works can only be bad if the motive is bad and self serving.

I see good in bad, never said I don't.
I love people despite their faults.

just clarify for me if you will

"my doctrine is that sees good in bad"

What are you saying? And does it relate to what you consider my indoctrination?

yup everything i say is a load of trash to you... seeing as your a royal scotsman who likes conflict with brits...

 

[BillG]

Firstly you say that you are my friend and that you have pmed me etc to show that you are my friend....

Then you say this.. you will never agree with me... That seems to be your attitude towards me through out our engagements...

You have found fault in almost everything i have said...

So please dont tell me that im the one on the attack to you and that im the one who is upsetting and all the rest of the trash you throw my way ,,,

THE SAYING SPRINGS TO MIND THAT YOU MAY FOOL PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME BUT NOT ALL OF THE TIME..

QUIT PLAYING THE SYMPATHY VOTE BE A MAN AND GROW UP AND FIGHT YOUR OWN BATTLES INSTEAD OF PLAYING ON THE SYMPATHY OF OTHERS..

Never said I pm'd you. I said I pm'd PJ

 

[BillG]

Firstly you say that you are my friend and that you have pmed me etc to show that you are my friend....

Then you say this.. you will never agree with me... That seems to be your attitude towards me through out our engagements...

You have found fault in almost everything i have said...

So please dont tell me that im the one on the attack to you and that im the one who is upsetting and all the rest of the trash you throw my way ,,,

THE SAYING SPRINGS TO MIND THAT YOU MAY FOOL PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME BUT NOT ALL OF THE TIME..

QUIT PLAYING THE SYMPATHY VOTE BE A MAN AND GROW UP AND FIGHT YOUR OWN BATTLES INSTEAD OF PLAYING ON THE SYMPATHY OF OTHERS..

I need to grow up? I need to grow up?

you sure are a piece of work.

You accuse me of playing on the sympathy of others, post where I have.

Your the man who got upset and appealed not to be called/perceived a liar because it upset you.
Go cry somewhere else