The Rapture

[VCO]

ok guys i went to a pretrib research center on the internet and wow this system is so complicated its like you have to be a engineerlawyer mishmash to overstand this........... im out as kevin says in shark tank hahaha. so many resurrections and the weird israel church divide i thought all are israel who are in Jesus like galatians says........ no jew nor greek in Christ

ALL THAT IS SAYING IS: GOD treats everyone alike no matter who they descended from, and they are ALL saved in the same way. SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, just like ABRAHAM. NO, that does not make us spiritual Israelites. Remember Abraham was NOT an Israelite, he was from UR of the Chaldeas, way south of Bagdad. We all are however of the same ASSEMBLY, the ASSEMBLY of those Saved by GRACE through FAITH.

Reread my post 582, if you are still Confused about Why all Believers are not RESURRECTED at the same moment in time.

The two Resurrections are NOT ABOUT TWO MOMENTS in time, you are only assuming that.



John 5:24 (HCSB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] “I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.


John 5:27-29 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And He has granted Him the right to pass judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice
[SUP]29 [/SUP] and come out—those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 20:13 (ESV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.


NOTICE: EACH ONE is JUDGED individually, NOT SIMULTANEOUSLY as a GROUP.

The concept of a simultaneous raising of all the unsaved at the same time, IS PURE AN ASSUMPTION THAT IS READ INTO THE SCRIPTURES, WHEN IT REALLY IS NOT THERE. WHICH MAKES MORE SENSE TO YOU, all the unsaved of all time being raised to FACE THEIR JUDGE at the same moment, ONLY to stand in line for years to face their JUDGE, OR BEING RAISED AT THE TIME THEY ARE TO FACE THEIR JUDGE. IT STILL IS ONE RESURRECTION OF THE SAVED AND ONE RESURRECTION OF THE UNSAVED.

 

[PlainWord]

Hello PW,

These that will be coming up out of the Abyss or demonic beings, for verse 14 states that they have a king over them, the angel of the Abyss.

Evil men have demons and Satan can influence them also.

When that star, which is figurative for angel, opens the Abyss, out of it will come demonic beings that will resemble locusts, having breastplates like that of iron, having wings, faces like the faces of humans, hair like women's hair, teeth like lions teeth and tails and stings like that of scorpions. They are intelligent for they will be commanded to not to harm the trees or plants or any green thing, but only those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads, which is referring to the 144,000 out of the twelve tribes of Israel who will have been sealed in Rev.7. These group will be the only ones exempt from this 5th trumpet plague.

I agree they can't harm the 144K as they were sealed by God. However, the locusts might not be demons. Instead this could be a figurative way of describing evil warriors who cover the land and move fast like locusts.

For five months these demonic beings will torment the inhabitants of the earth with stings like that of a scorpion. People will seek to die, but death will not be in operation at that time.

Or perhaps the "sting" isn't lethal.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Evil men have demons and Satan can influence them also.

Yeah, but the 5th trumpet will be specifically when the Abyss is opened for the purpose of letting these demonic being out. Don't confuse the issue by watering it down. When that 5th trumpet is blown, an angel will literally open the Abyss and out will come those demonic beings to torment men for five months with tails and stings like scorpions. Stop spiritualizing the event.

I agree they can't harm the 144K as they were sealed by God. However, the locusts might not be demons. Instead this could be a figurative way of describing evil warriors who cover the land and move fast like locusts.

They will be demonic beings, for their king is that angel of the Abyss. That angel is that beast who once was, now is not and yet will come up out of the Abyss. He is the king of those demonic beings who will torment the inhabitants of the earth.

Or perhaps the "sting" isn't lethal.

People will attempt to take their lives to escape the torment of their stings, but death will not be in operation at that time. We know that currently people are able to take their lives, for we see it every day. Someone has either hung themselves, overdosed or shot themselves. But during this plague, they will not be able to kill themselves regardless of what they do, for as the scripture states:

"In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, but death will escape them. "

As I mentioned, we know that people are able to kill themselves, but death will not be in operation during that time so that they will have to remain exposed to this plague of torment. Otherwise in order to get out of it, people will could shoot themselves, overdose, hang themselves or by any other means. But they won't be able to because death will be inoperative during that time. No one will be able to die to escape it.

 

[valiant]

Yeah, but the 5th trumpet will be specifically when the Abyss is opened for the purpose of letting these demonic being out. Don't confuse the issue by watering it down. When that 5th trumpet is blown, an angel will literally open the Abyss and out will come those demonic beings to torment men for five months with tails and stings like scorpions. Stop spiritualizing the event.




They will be demonic beings, for their king is that angel of the Abyss. That angel is that beast who once was, now is not and yet will come up out of the Abyss. He is the king of those demonic beings who will torment the inhabitants of the earth.



People will attempt to take their lives to escape the torment of their stings, but death will not be in operation at that time. We know that currently people are able to take their lives, for we see it every day. Someone has either hung themselves, overdosed or shot themselves. But during this plague, they will not be able to kill themselves regardless of what they do, for as the scripture states:

"In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, but death will escape them. "

As I mentioned, we know that people are able to kill themselves, but death will not be in operation during that time so that they will have to remain exposed to this plague of torment. Otherwise in order to get out of it, people will could shoot themselves, overdose, hang themselves or by any other means. But they won't be able to because death will be inoperative during that time. No one will be able to die to escape it.

[/SIZE]

You get more unbelievable the more you write

 

[Muzungu256]

You get more unbelievable the more you write

yes this is crazy!!!!!!! immortality without being in Christ and before the resurrection has even taken place before the next age (eternity) is ushered in whaaaaat

 

[Bladerunner]

The harvest in rev 14 is probably jews. You left out the 144k first fruits.
Leviticus has the 4 parts to harvest.
The book of ruth vividly depicts the gentile bride.
She is with the harvesters and is a gleaner.

Jesus being a first fruit is referring to the 1st part of harvest.
it is actually hard to miss the depiction.

I have never,ever heard a postrib rapture adherent initiate any of about 6 dimensions vividly depicting the bride,and the 4 part harvest.

it is like they know nothing of the heart of end times.

I would bet money nobody can show me any postrib that knows Ruth depicts the bride of Christ. VIVIDLY DEPICTS IT.

popeye....... in rev 14 are the 144,000 that were sealed Jewish People who God sends to earth to Preach to those on earth His message. It is not sure where he places these people once he redeems them. I suspect they will be on the same level as the Church. Besides the Church, there is only two other categories of Saints. This is found rev 6:11...their "fellowservants" same as they are and their "brethern". these will be the multitudes of tribulation saints taken up prior to the Great tribulations or the last half of Daniels & 70th week.

Well in this case, Leviticus does not have a part. The harvest speak of the First Fruits. Jesus' resurrection is celebrated on the first fruits.

Not sure where you are going here. An ancient Rabbi predicted that the Bible speaks of 10 dimensions. Our science has said they can confirm 6 dimensions (don't ask me how). We live in 3 dimensions (length, depth and width) and can see a fourth dimension of time. Our perception of time in lineal (straight line). We can only see the Past. What every you see, hear, feel or otherwise perceive has already happened. It is not even present...It is always past.

Ruth a priestess, married a Hebrew. Thus Jesus's genealogy runs through Ruth, a Gentile. As far as representing the Bride of Christ, I am not too sure here but am sure that she represents the "kinsman redeemer" rule (given to Isreal by God) that preserves land given unto each family forever.

Have a blessed Day

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

Popeye, listen and learn. THOSE IN HIM (born again) include both O.T. and N.T. Saints.

Malachi 3:6 tells us that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE. Therefore if we can find an example of how GOD saved ONE man, we will automatically know how GOD saves ALL who are saved, whether they are O.T. Saints or N.T. Saints.


O.T. Saints believed GOD would send a Messiah to save them from their sins.

N.T. Saints believe GOD did send the Messiah to save us from our sins.


THAT IS THE SAME FAITH THAT SAVES EVERYONE WHO IS SAVED.
It is the FAITH OF ABRAHAM.


Romans 4:3-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Likewise, David also speaks of the blessing of the man God credits righteousness to apart from works:

Acts 10:34 (HCSB)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Then Peter began to speak: “Now I really understand that God doesn’t show favoritism,


THE CONCEPT THAT GOD WILL SHOW FAVORITISM TO THE CHURCH-AGE BELIEVERS IS A LIE. It spawns out of the FACT that Neither JESUS nor the writers of the New Testament used the word CHURCH, it was substited for the actual word that JESUS USED, only because it was what the congregations were calling themselves when the first Bible was printed in English. Here is the word JESUS actually used:


Matthew 16:18 (YLT) [SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;


That is right, HE calls N.T. true believers, the exact same thing HE called O.T. true believers, the ASSEMBLY.


John 10:16 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.


AT THE RAPTURE WE WILL BECOME THAT ONE FLOCK LED BY ONE SHEPHERD. YES, that means O.T. Saints are Co-equally the ASSEMBLY HE HAS BUILT, and Co-equally the Bride of Christ. Get used to it, we are not better than them, we are Co-equally saved by Grace through the same FAITH.

Hi VCO....If you don't mind, let me add a sentence to your post.....

The assembly (church) which Jesus speaks of does not discriminate. In addition to the Gentiles that are normally thought of to filled the 'Church', if there are any Jewish people who find it in their heart to accept Jesus as their Messiah, Nagid (born again) then they will become a part of the 'Assembly (church). Those Jewish people who do not become born again are relegated to go through Daniel's 70th week.

Thank you VCO for your post.

Blade

 

[PlainWord]

THEY ARE DEMONS.

How do you know? They are called "locusts." You spiritualize them into demons. I spiritualize them into evil men of war. So, we are both spiritualizing.

Compare to Joel 1:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]What the chewing locustleft, the swarming locust has eaten; What the swarming locust left, the crawling locust has eaten; And what the crawling locust left, the consuming locust has eaten. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Awake, you drunkards, and weep; And wail, all you drinkers of wine, Because of the new wine, For it has been cut off from your mouth. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For a nation has come up against My land, Strong, and without number; His teeth are the teeth of a lion, And he has the fangs of a fierce lion. [SUP]7 [/SUP]He has laid waste My vine, And ruined My fig tree; He has stripped it bare and thrown it away; Its branches are made white.

Here the locusts were "a nation" and they have teeth as a lion, just like in John's version. Also, do demons need to wear armor? [SUP]9 [/SUP]And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron..."

 

[Muzungu256]

why the fear of spiritualizing and even accusation??????? everyone does it a little even rapturefolks spiritualize the 7 churches into church ages or somehow dance around it......... so we all do it its ok to spiritualize.......... cant take it all literally in isaiah 65 it says i create new heaven and earth and guess what it includes people still dying so how many take that literally?????????? not many......... maybe jews

 

[Bladerunner]

The "clouds of heaven" have always been an angelic/spiritual army. I think we've had this discussion before.

Deuteronomy 33:26

“There is no one like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to help you, And in His excellency on the clouds.

Daniel 7:13

“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.

Matthew 24:30

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64

Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Joel 2:2

A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.

Psalm 68:4

Sing to God, sing praises to His name; Extol Him who rides on the clouds, By His name YAH, And rejoice before Him.

Psalm 68:34

Ascribe strength to God; His excellence is over Israel, And His strength is in the clouds.

Psalm 78:23

Yet He had commanded the clouds above, And opened the doors of heaven

Ezekiel 30:3

For the day is near, Even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.

Ezekiel 38:9

You will ascend, coming like a storm, covering the land like a cloud, you and all your troops and many peoples with you.”

Acts 1:9

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

Jeremiah 4:13

“Behold, he shall come up like clouds, And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!”

Isaiah 19:1

The burden against Egypt. Behold, the Lord rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

Not all clouds are the fluffy white things we see in the sky. These "clouds are special." They can travel to heaven and accompany the Lord wherever He goes.

Wow,,,you do it again..... You attempt to place the word "cloud" in the spiritual world for everything and every verse. You remind me of the Hippies in the past who while on Dope, would fly in the sky ...........and see everything in that frame of mind or at least they thought they did. In other words, their reality was not really grounded here on earth.

Having said that,,,," they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven ". This phrase from the verse you used, tells us literally that everyone on earth will see Jesus come down from the clouds at the 2nd advent. Yes, since he lives in the third heaven, he actually has to come through physicially the first and second heavens to get to earth?

Now the Rapture verse: 1 thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Here he is descending from Heaven..His Abode in 3rd heaven. It does not say HE comes to earth...It does not say that anybody other than those raptured see him.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here He is in the Clouds....He does not come to earth to get everyone but rather snatches them up fro the surface of the earth into the Clouds. That is what "caught-up " means to snatch away/up... And finally "to meet the Lord in the air" should tell anyone that the meeting does not take place on earth but rather in the 1st Heaven (the SKY).

Please get you head out of the clouds,,,, HE will not be there for you if you continue to spew forth this garbage.

 

[Bladerunner]

Most of Revelation is in the past.

SO SAYS THE PRETERIST!

 

[valiant]

ALL THAT IS SAYING IS: GOD treats everyone alike no matter who they descended from, and they are ALL saved in the same way. SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, just like ABRAHAM. NO, that does not make us spiritual Israelites.

But just as Abraham was the precursor of Israel, so the true church is the current Israel. The people of God continue in one line.

Remember Abraham was NOT an Israelite, he was from UR of the Chaldeas, way south of Bagdad. We all are however of the same ASSEMBLY, the ASSEMBLY of those Saved by GRACE through FAITH.

Agreed.

The two Resurrections are NOT ABOUT TWO MOMENTS in time, you are only assuming that.

The first resurrection was the resurrection of Christ, in which we partake spiritually as we are converted (Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1; John 5.24-25). The second resurrection is one event at the end of time (John 5.28-29)

John 5:24 (HCSB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] “I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.


John 5:27-29 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And He has granted Him the right to pass judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice
[SUP]29 [/SUP] and come out—those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of judgment.

see?

Revelation 20:13 (ESV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

The final resurrection.

NOTICE: EACH ONE is JUDGED individually, NOT SIMULTANEOUSLY as a GROUP.

true but at the same time.

The concept of a simultaneous raising of all the unsaved at the same time, IS PURE AN ASSUMPTION THAT IS READ INTO THE SCRIPTURES, WHEN IT REALLY IS NOT THERE.

THE HOUR IS COMING (John 5.28). Seems pretty definite to me.

WHICH MAKES MORE SENSE TO YOU, all the unsaved of all time being raised to FACE THEIR JUDGE at the same moment, ONLY to stand in line for years to face their JUDGE, OR BEING RAISED AT THE TIME THEY ARE TO FACE THEIR JUDGE

Both LOL He can judge all men instantaneously.

IT STILL IS ONE RESURRECTION OF THE SAVED AND ONE RESURRECTION OF THE UNSAVED.

Yep the resurrection mentioned in Rev 20.18 and John 5.28-29.

 

[PlainWord]

SO SAYS THE PRETERIST!

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Is 2,000 years near? Maybe in your world.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by PlainWord

Most of Revelation is in the past.

SO SAYS THE PRETERIST!

no change it to 'much of Revelation' and so say most sensible interpreters.

 

[Bladerunner]

You get more unbelievable the more you write

And if you would listen to him, Vallant, you just might have a chance at making that appointment in the Sky..the Rapture.

otherwise yoiu will no doubt be one of the ones left behind. ARE YOU READY FOR THAT??????? if Not then better start listening.

 

[Bladerunner]

yes this is crazy!!!!!!! immortality without being in Christ and before the resurrection has even taken place before the next age (eternity) is ushered in whaaaaat

I like that idea that you are helping the conversation travel along but this play acting of the not knowing is just a little above a 3rd grade level.

 

[valiant]

And if you would listen to him, Vallant, you just might have a chance at making that appointment in the Sky..the Rapture.

The rapture will occur at the end of time and I may or may not be there. But it won't be for the reason you give.

otherwise yoiu will no doubt be one of the ones left behind. ARE YOU READY FOR THAT??????? if Not then better start listening.

I have no doubt that NO CHRISTIAN will be left behind

Reads Acts 17.11 again

 

[Bladerunner]

How do you know? They are called "locusts." You spiritualize them into demons. I spiritualize them into evil men of war. So, we are both spiritualizing.

Compare to Joel 1:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]What the chewing locustleft, the swarming locust has eaten; What the swarming locust left, the crawling locust has eaten; And what the crawling locust left, the consuming locust has eaten. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Awake, you drunkards, and weep; And wail, all you drinkers of wine, Because of the new wine, For it has been cut off from your mouth. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For a nation has come up against My land, Strong, and without number; His teeth are the teeth of a lion, And he has the fangs of a fierce lion. [SUP]7 [/SUP]He has laid waste My vine, And ruined My fig tree; He has stripped it bare and thrown it away; Its branches are made white.

Here the locusts were "a nation" and they have teeth as a lion, just like in John's version. Also, do demons need to wear armor? [SUP]9 [/SUP]And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron..."

ah but you spirtualize everything that you don't want to or can not explain...It is a classic example of a preterist, etc.

 

[popeye]

Popeye, listen and learn. THOSE IN HIM (born again) include both O.T. and N.T. Saints.

Malachi 3:6 tells us that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE. Therefore if we can find an example of how GOD saved ONE man, we will automatically know how GOD saves ALL who are saved, whether they are O.T. Saints or N.T. Saints.


O.T. Saints believed GOD would send a Messiah to save them from their sins.

N.T. Saints believe GOD did send the Messiah to save us from our sins.


THAT IS THE SAME FAITH THAT SAVES EVERYONE WHO IS SAVED.
It is the FAITH OF ABRAHAM.


Romans 4:3-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Likewise, David also speaks of the blessing of the man God credits righteousness to apart from works:

Acts 10:34 (HCSB)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Then Peter began to speak: “Now I really understand that God doesn’t show favoritism,


THE CONCEPT THAT GOD WILL SHOW FAVORITISM TO THE CHURCH-AGE BELIEVERS IS A LIE. It spawns out of the FACT that Neither JESUS nor the writers of the New Testament used the word CHURCH, it was substited for the actual word that JESUS USED, only because it was what the congregations were calling themselves when the first Bible was printed in English. Here is the word JESUS actually used:


Matthew 16:18 (YLT) [SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;


That is right, HE calls N.T. true believers, the exact same thing HE called O.T. true believers, the ASSEMBLY.


John 10:16 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.


AT THE RAPTURE WE WILL BECOME THAT ONE FLOCK LED BY ONE SHEPHERD. YES, that means O.T. Saints are Co-equally the ASSEMBLY HE HAS BUILT, and Co-equally the Bride of Christ. Get used to it, we are not better than them, we are Co-equally saved by Grace through the same FAITH.

No,otherwise there was no reason to preach the gospel to the Jew. Come to think of it,under your logic,all a gentile would need is Jewish conversion.

You are wrong.

Jesus preached the gospel to the patriarchs when he descended into the earth. Then,they resurrected with Jesus and were seen.

All the patriarchs are already in heaven,in fact those OT martyrs are confined under the altar until we will see the "innumerable number" depicted in rev before the throne.

 

[popeye]

The rapture will occur at the end of time and I may or may not be there. But it won't be for the reason you give.



I have no doubt that NO CHRISTIAN will be left behind

Reads Acts 17.11 again

...but skips mat 25 virgins left behind