The Rapture

[valiant]

Really? I can read Revelation and understand it without consulting the OT.

which explains your glaring errors.

I don't have to understand the plagues of wrath in order to understand what the seals trumpets and bowl judgments are and their results.

You just make them start about 2000 years too late

The horses in Zechariah don't add anything to understanding the first four seals. There is also an extra horse in there, that is not in Revelation. We don't even know if those in Zechariah are synonymous with those in Revelation.

The idea of the horsemen was however taken from Zechariah, combined with Matthew 24. They illustrate the march of history from John's day onwards..

As I continue to point out, the word "Apokalupsis" translated "Revelation" is defined as the revealing of events that were previously covered, hidden

.

Yes the events from John's day onwards.

The book of Revelation can be understood on its own, for it is a self contained book.

As is true of all Bible books. But it is illuminated by the OT.

If you don't believe me, ask me a question about anything in the book of Revelation and I will give you the answer from the same book.

you will provide AN answer. I can do the same. But your interpretation is steeped in error.

This teaching that the majority of Revelation as being symbolic is why many misinterpret the book.

It says at the beginning, the revelation which He gave by signs - so God thought it too

If you would read it at face value and apply symbolism only where it is obvious or required, then you will begin to understand the book.

I understand it as thoroughly as you do, signs and all. It gives the record of history from John's day to the second coming, and it is split up into a number of visions each ending at the second coming, before finally showing the everlasting kingdom.

 

[Issachar92]

That is the final consummation in the new earth. No need for a false and failing 1000 years.

So in eternity sinners will still die like it says?

Isaiah 65:20 (KJV) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

 

[PlainWord]

Really? I can read Revelation and understand it without consulting the OT. I don't have to understand the plagues of wrath in order to understand what the seals trumpets and bowl judgments are and their results. The horses in Zechariah don't add anything to understanding the first four seals. There is also an extra horse in there, that is not in Revelation. We don't even know if those in Zechariah are synonymous with those in Revelation.

As I continue to point out, the word "Apokalupsis" translated "Revelation" is defined as the revealing of events that were previously covered, hidden. The book of Revelation can be understood on its own, for it is a self contained book. If you don't believe me, ask me a question about anything in the book of Revelation and I will give you the answer from the same book.

This teaching that the majority of Revelation as being symbolic is why many misinterpret the book. If you would read it at face value and apply symbolism only where it is obvious or required, then you will begin to understand the book.

Wait, aren't you one who spiritualizes the 7 churches into 7 different Church eras or church types to be found in the last days? The literal way of looking at the churches is that they were the literal churches John wrote to in his day and that his message to each church was specific to them as were the promises.

 

[PlainWord]

So in eternity sinners will still die like it says?

Isaiah 65:20 (KJV) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

What are we told about the 4th age? God will restore all things?

 

[valiant]

So in eternity sinners will still die like it says?

Isaiah 65:20 (KJV) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

It is quite obvious to the normal reader that taken at face value the above is contradictory. The child and the sinner are on different time scales. The idea is to stress the longevity of the righteous and the lesser life of the sinner. It COULD not happen in real life. In a day when everlasting life was unknown, it is the prophet's way of declaring that the righteous would prosper and live long whereas the sinner will be cut off while still a child.

 

[PlainWord]

It is quite obvious to the normal reader that taken at face value the above is contradictory. The child and the sinner are on different time scales. The idea is to stress the longevity of the righteous and the lesser life of the sinner. It COULD not happen in real life. In a day when everlasting life was unknown, it is the prophet's way of declaring that the righteous would prosper and live long whereas the sinner will be cut off while still a child.

Never heard it put like this before. Hmm.

See, I think in the final eternal state those of us believers who have died and received glorified bodies need to be reigning over something mortal. If things are restored back to Adam's day, your theory makes perfect sense for the physical world. We obviously still have death but then again, maybe the lack of death applies only to us in the spiritual realm. Meanwhile the physical realm continues but restored back. Like you said, the righteous will live longer. We become as angels, as we are told. Maybe we have the ability to go between spiritual and physical realm at will like the angels did back in the days of Adam.

 

[MattforJesus]

Never heard it put like this before. Hmm.

See, I think in the final eternal state those of us believers who have died and received glorified bodies need to be reigning over something mortal. If things are restored back to Adam's day, your theory makes perfect sense for the physical world. We obviously still have death but then again, maybe the lack of death applies only to us in the spiritual realm. Meanwhile the physical realm continues but restored back. Like you said, the righteous will live longer.

The battle of Armageddon is when the world will attack Israel for they have accepted Christ,for God sent them 2 witnesses to turn them to the truth,and the beast will persecute all people that hold the testimony of Jesus.

Jesus said,the Jews shall not see Him again,until they say,blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,which Jesus will save Israel from the world,and they will see Him,and the kingdom on earth will be restored to Israel.

Jesus and the saints will be in glorified bodies ruling over the people that are left that went against Israel,which the Bible says one sixth of them will remain,and they will be in the flesh.

The LORD shall be king over all the earth in that day,and there shall be one LORD,and His name one,and the glory of the LORD shall fill the earth.Nobody will recognize any God,or religious figure,but only Jesus.

People will not war with people,and animals will be plant eaters,and not eat meat,and not fight with each other,and a little child can lead a crocodile in one hand,and a lion in the other,and they will have no desire to hurt the child.

The people in the flesh have to go up year after year to worship the LORD at Jerusalem,and keep the feast of tabernacles.

Satan is bound in the bottomless pit for 1000 years,and at the end of the 1000 years is loosed from the pit where he stirs up the world,and they go against the saints,and God rains fire down on them,and devours them.

The people that Jesus and the saints rule over,took the mark of the beast,but God postponed their judgment until the 1000 years were expired.

The earth and heaven will pass away,and be no more,and Jesus said,I make all things new,and the former earth and heaven,will not be remembered,or come to mind,and angels,and the saints,will not remember anything prior to the New Jerusalem,which is a spiritual kingdom,for the old earth and heaven are associated with sin,and rebellion,and suffering,and the New Jerusalem will be a place where sin has never been,and sin will never be,and rebellion will never come up again,and the saints will have glorified bodies,and no one in the flesh there.

 

[Bladerunner]

That is the final consummation in the new earth. No need for a false and failing 1000 years.

Why do you say that? You do not believe!

 

[Bladerunner]

I didn't mention the Old Testament lol I was talking about Revelation which is said to be symbolic. So you accuse me falsely. But it goes on all the time here so whats new.?

As for the Old Testament, much of its prophecy was fulfilled in the Old Testament days. It is you who seek to make everything future that misrepresent the OT.

There are some 800 Prophecies that are to fulfilled in Revelations and Most of those Prophecies came from the OT..

"What is concealed in the OT is Revealed in the NT......What is concealed in the NT is revealed in the OT." Ref. Chuck Missler

 

[RickyZ]

Wait, aren't you one who spiritualizes the 7 churches into 7 different Church eras or church types to be found in the last days? The literal way of looking at the churches is that they were the literal churches John wrote to in his day and that his message to each church was specific to them as were the promises.

Let me venture this:

What if prophecy, being the eternal word of a heavenly God, transmogrifies into the realm of time not by being chiseled into stone at a certain place and time, but instead it reverberates thru time like an echo? Thus John could be writing to a specific 7 churches, 7 church types, and 7 church eras all thru this one letter. Prophecy is not a one-and-done. None of God's word is.

 

[PlainWord]

Let me venture this:

What if prophecy, being the eternal word of a heavenly God, transmogrifies into the realm of time not by being chiseled into stone at a certain place and time, but instead it reverberates thru time like an echo? Thus John could be writing to a specific 7 churches, 7 church types, and 7 church eras all thru this one letter. Prophecy is not a one-and-done. None of God's word is.

Then there are no absolutes and nothing is certain. With this logic you can make the Word say just about anything, especially concerning prophesy. Some might even start adding 2,000 year gaps between year 483 and 490, for instance.

 

[RickyZ]

Thus all the more need for proper testing and discernment.

 

[PlainWord]

Thus all the more need for proper testing and discernment.

Absolutely!! Couldn't agree more. When Jesus tells his four disciples about the "great tribulation", the "beginning of sorrows" leading up to it and His parousia return, it might be wise to actually remember that there was this monumental event from 66-70 AD that culminated in the complete and utter destruction of the Jewish nation. 2,000 years of the Jewish nation had come to a brutal end after 3.5 years of the worst suffering any nation ever endured, or could ever endure in the future. Everything they ever cared about was gone, their temple, their holy city and their way of life. Less than 100,000 were left alive out of 1.2 million!! That's a nearly 92% casualty rate.

Proper testing and discernment would require an in depth look at this event before its completely ignored and some future "great tribulation" is considered. If you stop for a moment and ask yourself, was there was a race of people that the Bible mostly focused upon? If so, which race would it be? Much detail was given to the beginning of the race and all the years up until Christ. Logic would suggest that there would be some discussion about it's end, turns out there was. You just ignore it.

 

[RickyZ]

I don't ignore anything. 70 AD did in fact fulfill many prophecies. Those same prophecies will find even greater fulfillment in the near future. Those who think God's eternal word is a 'one and done' are sorely shortsighted.

 

[Rockrz]

No need for a false and failing 1000 years.

Wow! Jesus is going to rulle for 1000 years and He is going to be false and failing???

It's been a long time since that level of disrespect for the Lord Jesus Christ has been displayed on a Chritian forum that I've seen at least.

 

[VCO]

MORE ON THE G-7 Summit Meetings:

This Year the G-7 Summit Meeting was held in Catania, Sicily (Italy):

NOTICE: This year E.U.'s Commission President, and E.U.'s Council President were invited to attend even tho they are not Official members. THUS you have an E.U. Flag on each end.

The Location of the G-7 Summit rotates from Country to Country in various cities, therefore it is only a matter of time before the G-7 Summit meets in ROME.

MORE G-7 Summit food for thought:

I know that the actual identification of the Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns (Rev. 13:1), can only be speculation this side of the fulfillment of that Prophecy; BUT, I came up with some more interesting facts, and possible potential events surrounding the G-7 Summit Nations, that seem to fit perfectly.

Most theologians seem to agree, that Heads, Horns, and Mountains in prophecy can be symbolism for Countries. Yes the G-7 Nations are a LITERAL SEVEN NATION CONFEDERACY that exists today. This Year there were 9 representatives in attendance because the two E.U. leaders who are non-members were invited. One year, they invited 20 other nations, so invites to attend seem to be the norm. So, it is possible that the 10 horns, separated from the 7 heads, are invited Nations, that are not official members of the G-7.

Speculating that possibility: . . . . . It could be that in a year that the G-7 Summit, invites 10 other Nations to their Summit Meeting to discuss discuss a world wide economic CRISIS, perhaps even having the Meeting held in Rome that year. Then from one of the 10 horns comes one who is considered to be an economic genius, and he is invited to take over the G-7 and rule, to save the world's economies that are collapsing. That new Leader would automatically be maintaining the seven heads prophecy that is Led by the one Beast, the Anti-Christ.

Sounds far fetched to you? Think about this: the G-7's primary purpose is to prevent a world wide economic collapse, and many of us have been taught that Anti-Christ will come to full power peacefully during a world wide economic collapse.

Revelation 13:1 (YLT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw out of the sea a beast coming up, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon its horns ten diadems, and upon its heads a name of evil speaking,

Daniel 7:7-8 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] “While I was watching in the night visions, a fourth beast appeared, frightening and dreadful, and incredibly strong, with large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed, and it trampled with its feet whatever was left. It was different from all the beasts before it, and it had 10 horns.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] “While I was considering the horns, suddenly another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. There were eyes in this horn like a man’s, and it had a mouth that spoke arrogantly.


Like I noted before, the uprooting of three of the horns, could be like East Germany was uprooted, and these three merge to form a new Country under new ONE LEADER, considered to be an economic genius.

Like I said, just speculating.

 

[PlainWord]

I don't ignore anything. 70 AD did in fact fulfill many prophecies. Those same prophecies will find even greater fulfillment in the near future. Those who think God's eternal word is a 'one and done' are sorely shortsighted.

There will be no more "great tribulation" rising to the level of the 70 AD event. The passage is clear about that. The next time an enemy (Gog) surrounds the holy city, God will divinely intervene and wipe it out. I would call that a similar, but not a duel, prophesy.

 

[AllenW]

The bowels of wrath?

No, not every Christian

Let's talk about the bowels of wrath.
You go first.

 

[PlainWord]

VCO,

There is another way of looking at the 7 heads and 10 horns and that is to look at Dan 7 and how he defines them. In v6, the 3rd beast (Greece) had 4 heads. We know from history that when Alexander died Greece was split up and given to his four generals. The heads were not the generals themselves but rather the empires that the generals ruled; Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucus (later the Seleucid empire), and Ptolemy Dynasties. Thus we know that a head is an empire that splits off of the beast.

Turning to Rev 17 we see the same thing:

“Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits."

Here John is using a double figurative: head = mountain = A kingdom, authority or rule (Psm 30:7, Isa 2:2, Dan 2:45).

We don't have to wonder about the horns since John tells us what they are:

“The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast...And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

The Woman riding the beast is called a harlot and we know that harlotry represents idol or false worship or false religion.

So, if we put all of this together we are looking for a dominant world power (BEAST) that was divided into 7 smaller kingdoms or is made up of 7 kingdoms or perhaps nations. These 7 kingdoms contain 10 kingdom-less leaders who hate and destroy the very religion the original world power supported. Now, one of these lesser kingdoms gets nearly wiped out but makes a come back. I don't think it's the G7.

 

[VCO]

VCO,

There is another way of looking at the 7 heads and 10 horns and that is to look at Dan 7 and how he defines them. In v6, the 3rd beast (Greece) had 4 heads. We know from history that when Alexander died Greece was split up and given to his four generals. The heads were not the generals themselves but rather the empires that the generals ruled; Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucus (later the Seleucid empire), and Ptolemy Dynasties. Thus we know that a head is an empire that splits off of the beast.

Turning to Rev 17 we see the same thing:

“Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits."

Here John is using a double figurative: head = mountain = A kingdom, authority or rule (Psm 30:7, Isa 2:2, Dan 2:45).

We don't have to wonder about the horns since John tells us what they are:

“The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast...And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

The Woman riding the beast is called a harlot and we know that harlotry represents idol or false worship or false religion.

So, if we put all of this together we are looking for a dominant world power (BEAST) that was divided into 7 smaller kingdoms or is made up of 7 kingdoms or perhaps nations. These 7 kingdoms contain 10 kingdom-less leaders who hate and destroy the very religion the original world power supported. Now, one of these lesser kingdoms gets nearly wiped out but makes a come back. I don't think it's the G7.

You don't even come close to understanding that I do interpret all Scripture, especially Prophecy, in light of what all other Scripture pertaining to the same subject literally says. You interpret by taking a short cut through the Twilight Zone.