Not By Works

[Ariel82]

Who are you asking?

You........?

 

[blue_ladybug]

People don't necessarily show good credibility when they say "I don't believe in such and such concept", yet they post verses that PROVE what they don't believe, actually IS TRUE. That just shows they have no clue what they're talking about, and therefore cannot be taken seriously..

 

[Ariel82]

Jesus said branches that do not produce good fruit will be cut off and burned.
I don't know how much clearer it could be.

Mathew 7:19
Romans 11:20-22

THOSE branches were the Pharisees that rejected Jesus. They used to,be part of the natural olive tree with Jesus as the root., They produced no good fruit, so God cuts them out of the promise.

The church is grafted in, but not all in the church are born again or sealed with the Holy Spirit.

So they too are dead branches that will be removed,though outwardly they appear to be Christians,inside they have dead men bones.

 

[Ariel82]

Blue, spiritual discernment is a gift from God,understanding of scriptures and wisdom are also.

If you feel that God has given you the gift of both, how does God say we should use them?

 

[mailmandan]

Here is the whole history of osas (eternal security).
God wrapped Himself in human flesh. Was born of a virgin woman. Conceived by the Holy Spirit. Suffered. Was crucified. Died. Was buried. God the Father raised Him from the grave, according to the Scriptures.
I have confessed with my mouth, and believe in my heart. The Holy Spirit lives in me, and has SEALED me. Jesus has said to me He will NEVER leave me nor forsake me. I believe Him. I am eternally secure.

WON'T YOU JOIN ME?

Amen! Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[Ariel82]

If your foundation is faith in Jesus finished work on the cross for the remission of your sins, his ressurection and ascension to heaven. If you are sealed with God's holy spirit than you WILL BE SAVED, even if all your works burn up in the fire. God will pull you out, like He did Daniel's three friends.

However if your works stand and are gold or silver,you will get a reward in Heaven. This is the crown Paul races for, NOT salvation.

******

1 Corinthians 3
10According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilledb master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

These verses show that God promises eternal security to those whose foundation is in Christ.

Would anyone who says you must do good works to be saved like to comment on these verses?

Without the Gospel: that Jesus died upon the cross for the remission of sins, reasurected and ascended into Heaven. He sends the Holy Spirit so that we are sealed and are born again as beloved children of God.

With out the gospel as foundation,you are building your house on sinking sand. No matter how much gol, silver or precious gems you use, it will not stand.

However if your foundation is Christ, even if you build with hay and stubble and it all gets burnt up. You will,be saved from the fire.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is the whole history of osas (eternal security).
God wrapped Himself in human flesh. Was born of a virgin woman. Conceived by the Holy Spirit. Suffered. Was crucified. Died. Was buried. God the Father raised Him from the grave, according to the Scriptures.
I have confessed with my mouth, and believe in my heart. The Holy Spirit lives in me, and has SEALED me. Jesus has said to me He will NEVER leave me nor forsake me. I believe Him. I am eternally secure.

WON'T YOU JOIN ME?

John agrees with you. He writes to believers so that they may know that they do have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

With "security" comes the nutrients for "maturity" just like it does in every relationship. We are one spirit with the Lord and Jesus said the Holy Spirit will be in us forever. John 14:16

We are in Christ and Christ is in us when we believed the message of Him. Eph. 1:13

We can get our minds messed up with stinking thinking but our spirits are safe with the Lord for He has said "I will never leave nor forsake you."

If we would preach and teach the love and grace of God instead of "insecurity" then Christians would be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.

The grace of God would operate in our lives like it was meant to do for it is the grace of God in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection - which is His life manifesting in us that teaches us how to live godly in the present world. Titus 2:11-12.

 

[FranC]

You are probably gonna get mad at me, but gossiping doesn't help the situation. It just makes the other person mad.

If you have something to say, you should say it to the person. Not talk about her to another person.

You would expect the same respect, at least I would.

It always annoyed me when people talk about me as if I wasn't there. Even if they were saying good things,but especially if they said bad things,

Most of the time I walk away or ignore these type of posts, but I thought the goal of this conversation was to talk to Fran about the Gospel?

Or maybe not?

Thanks Ariel.

The above post of yours is to Blue.

It's terrible how persons here talk about Others as if they won't know.
Jesus said that it's not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out of it.
Mathew 15:11

I believe we're here to share what we know and to share the love God has for us.
I believe we're all brothers in Christ and should not be demeaning each other but holding each other up.

Because a person does not agree with another person does not mean they are cake takers, or work doers, or fools, or lost and going to the pit..., or don't understand someones's position.

It just means that they've leanred different doctrine and have read their bible and agree to the doctrine they have learned.

We could discuss whether or not one could lose salvation without getting all upset with each other.
Or discuss anything else, for that matter, in a calm and christianly manner.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Not in a constant merry go round with people who don't listen and/or are blind.. God says we need to shake off the dust and that's what I've done..

Blue, spiritual discernment is a gift from God,understanding of scriptures and wisdom are also.

If you feel that God has given you the gift of both, how does God say we should use them?

 

[Ariel82]

Not in a constant merry go round with people who don't listen and/or are blind.. God says we need to shake off the dust and that's what I've done..

I thought shake off the dust meant you left town?

How does one do that on forums?

Leave the thread?

Put them on ignore?

Dont mention their name anymore?

Kind of hard to leave town,

Personally I like the expression "I wash my hands of it" better.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

fran i didnt read everything posted here

but i think to many who believe they have salvation in Jesus
it will be made manifest they never had it
and they had a dead faith

more so than they had true faith and lost it

i may be wrong

but this shouldnt cause division

i see how important repentence is to you based on your posts
and think you got a lot of stuff right and dont think this one thing wether you be right or wrong effects much


if we have a new heart given to us from God
we continue to grow in the word
FOLLOW Jesus and turn from sin we are gonna be alright

may God bless you ( posting this cause from what i did see it was you vs many and i felt sad in my heart)

 

[garee]

What is Jesus building in our lives?
A shoring up job to stop final collapse or a rebuilding work, that takes the shell
and makes it all new?

And is this work done overnight or is an in-progress type of work.

Paul implies it is an in-progress type of work.

Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
Luke 13:24

Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else.
1 Thess 5:15

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy
Jude 1:24

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Phil 3:10-14

With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may bring to fruition your every desire for goodness and your every deed prompted by faith.
2 Thess 1:11

Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
1 Cor 15:58

Paul is saying we must follow our calling and work hard to fulfill it, being worthy servants
of the King.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
2 Cor 5:17

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
Gal 6:15

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Peter 1:23

Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.
Eph 4:15

Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.
1 Cor 11:32

In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
Luke 14:33

Faith or belief is not enough, you have to follow it through with dedication,
following, giving, sacrifice, time, energy

Are you a new creation?

As "new creatures" that have passed from eternal death to eternal life it would appear that you are not mixing the faith in respect to Christ in your interpretation.What we will be as new creatures that are freely given a new spirit is not that which we are today.Its what the unbelieving Jew practiced. They also demanded a sign before they would believe their own selves as evidence they thought they had the Spirit of Christ. It made the cross they stumbled over without effect and is why Christ said what he did below. ..


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

I would suggest looking at a few of some of the commentaries to see the different ideas as to why Christ said what he did. The Catholics because scripture is no authority take that verse to speak against the scriptures saying there is more than scriptures as the voice of God. They also walk by sight.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Shake off the dust, means to stop sharing the word with unbelievers who refuse to hear. If they don't want to hear, there's no sense in talking to them. Seriously, Ariel, you should already know this..

The influence the RCC has on some in here, is fairly obvious in light of what they say they believe or don't believe in.

I'm NOT spending the rest of my time going round with someone who doesn't believe in eternal salvation, and who can't understand the simple concept that works do not save us.

I thought shake off the dust meant you left town?

How does one do that on forums?

Leave the thread?

Put them on ignore?

Dont mention their name anymore?

Kind of hard to leave town,

Personally I like the expression "I wash my hands of it" better.

 

[Ariel82]

Nah Mcgee it's split in half.

She just post more than others.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Nah Mcgee it's split in half.

She just post more than others.

my bad

im sure i missed a lot

i only read the posts that catch my eye

 

[Ariel82]

As far as I can tell (y'all correct me if I am wrong)

FranC, followjesus, PeterJens, Jimbo, and about 5 others believe in either Synergism (salvation takes both God's power and man's work to save you) or you have to do good works to maintain your salvation or risk losing it.

There are probably more.

Others believe in monogerism (only by God's power are you saved and stay saved. God works through you, but you are not robots. He changes your mind and way of seeing the world so you WANT to do it His way)

 

[FranC]

Fran, look more closely at my post to see what is being confirmed. Here it is again....

V15-19: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


A tree with no good fruit is thrown into the fire
A good tree does not bear bad fruit
A bad tree does not bear good fruit


Therefore....... the tree being thrown into the fire is the one that was bad all along, since a bad tree does not bear good fruit. This isn't a believer losing salvation.

Ariel,

I read the above twice even though I know it by heart.

You yourself say:

A tree with no good fruit is thrown into the fire

This is right.

Oh. You're speaking about a believer losing salvation.

NO.

I was referring to "works", not to loss of salvation.

Those who do not do good works are the branches that are cut off and thrown into the fire because :
"every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire".

This is repeated in Romans 11:21

Jesus expects trees to produce good fruit...or they will be cut off and burned. This is referring to works.

 

[FranC]

Shake off the dust, means to stop sharing the word with unbelievers who refuse to hear. If they don't want to hear, there's no sense in talking to them. Seriously, Ariel, you should already know this..

The influence the RCC has on some in here, is fairly obvious in light of what they say they believe or don't believe in.

I'm NOT spending the rest of my time going round with someone who doesn't believe in eternal salvation, and who can't understand the simple concept that works do not save us.

Blue,

Just to let you know that if you're not going to go around with people who believe one could lose salvation, you sure are going to lose lots of friends since MOST MAINLINE CHURCHES believe that you CAN lose your salvation.

This has been the position of the Church all along until Mr. Calvin came along and changed the minds of SOME, but not of MOST.

So good luck.

 

[Grace777x70]

To me all this boils down to this.

Some people believe that we must do good works as in the keeping of commandments and others say that the life of Christ will produce good works in and through us by the power and grace of the Spirit of grace.

Both are essentially saying the same thing - except it is the origination of these "good works" that is the issue in some minds. Some people say that we need to do good works or we are not saved. Others say we do good works because we are saved - not from some law.

Of course how much "good works" must one do to qualify as doing official good works?

There are good moral living - good works doing people in every religion of the world. It is how the world operates and it is a fruit of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We are to eat from Christ Himself - He is the tree of Life.

In the New Covenant - God did not give us laws to keep but His life to keep us.

Get this backwards and we create a works-based - works-righteousness religion that actually nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to. We go about trying to mimic the life of Christ by what we do or don't do.

The true Christian life is Christ Himself manifesting His love and grace in and through us - the branches. Without Him we can do nothing...and yes....we do participate in Him with this. Phil. 2:13

The other aspect is that some people think that we do not have eternal life now in Christ and we are not secure in Him. Others believe the complete opposite.

Each should be free to express their views, not insult each other and leave it in the hands of the Lord and just agree to disagree.

Salvation as in being one spirit with the Lord for all eternity and having our sins forgiven by His blood is all based on grace through faith in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection when we heard the message of Him. Eph. 1:13

 

[NoNameMcgee]

As far as I can tell (y'all correct me if I am wrong)

FranC, followjesus, PeterJens, Jimbo, and about 5 others believe in either Synergism (salvation takes both God's power and man's work to save you) or you have to do good works to maintain your salvation or risk losing it.

There are probably more.

Others believe in monogerism (only by God's power are you saved and stay saved. God works through you, but you are not robots. He changes your mind and way of seeing the world so you WANT to do it His way)

i believe no matter what you proclaim
if you die a sinful person

youre hell bound

dunno what list that puts me on

(._.')