I'm Treading Works Salvation...lolzzzzzzz

[eternally-gratefull]

Lets break this down very simply and plainly.

Yes lets do. I do think many are confused.

If I am working to get saved, maintain salvation, or keep from losing salvation (endure to the end) then it is self righteous works, also known as legalism or modern day phariseeism.

If I am working as a result of my faith (which saved me) and as a means to grow in christ and produce fruit, Then it is called sanctification, or christian growth.

Faith causes us to obey Jesus,

Works causes us to think we obey God

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think Calvinism and Arminianism are totally at odds. The main difference I see is an inconsistency in Arminian theology and doctrines while Calvinism is more tightly knit. I do believe there can be a coexistence of both Calvinists and Arminians, but the issue comes when one side or the other blatantly misrepresents the other. For the most part, both sides agree on the Gospel and other fundamental aspects of Christianity. Most of the arguments end up being on peripheral subjects. I will admit, however, that I think reformed theology elevates God while lowering man while Arminian theology lowers God and elevates man. Beyond that and some peripheral issues, we, in theory, SHOULD be able to get along.

first time I ever heard this..

 

[Issachar92]

Yes lets do. I do think many are confused.

If I am working to get saved, maintain salvation, or keep from losing salvation (endure to the end) then it is self righteous works, also known as legalism or modern day phariseeism.

If I am working as a result of my faith (which saved me) and as a means to grow in christ and produce fruit, Then it is called sanctification, or christian growth.

Faith causes us to obey Jesus,

Works causes us to think we obey God

As I predicted, semantics and nonsense. Btw, finish that quote of romans 8:1, i know that last part is kinda too workish, why did Paul have to write it???

 

[preacher4truth]

The nastiest discussions i have ever had online have been with calvinists.. I try to avoid them as best i can.. I will post simply to state my opposition to their dogmas but i know for many experiences it is almost impossible to move a calvinist from calvinism.. They are locked into those 5 pillars.. and only the LORD can get them out..

Unfortunately the camp here against Calvinists have been the ugliest, angriest, lying crowd.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As I predicted, semantics and nonsense. Btw, finish that quote of romans 8:1, i know that last part is kinda too workish, why did Paul have to write it???

Nonsense? Tell God that.

(and then explain to me why it is nonsense?) It is actually CONTEXT that I am trying to show. what is wrong with it? can you prove it wrong?? or are you just going to attack?

Finish romans 8: 1? WHo said it is not finished. and it really does not matter.

There is NO CONDEMNATION TO THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST.. - That is a fact. And nothing changes that. not even the ending given in the king jimmy (which I happen to use the NKJV) so I see it every time I read it.

WHO (those in Christ, and are saved unconditionally, who are under no condemnation) DO NOT WALK ACCORDING TO THE FLESH BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.

whether you have that at the end of vs 1 or not, It is Mentioned in verse 4. and the point is still the same. Gods people (those saved by FAITH) walk according to the spirit (not perfect)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As I predicted, semantics and nonsense. Btw, finish that quote of romans 8:1, i know that last part is kinda too workish, why did Paul have to write it???

oh and by the way, You just did what I predicted. You did not read what I said, or even try to get the context of what I meant.. You just washed it off as nonsense..

 

[preacher4truth]

And so it continues. More lies from the opposition. Disgusting.

Just imagine those elitist and entitled peoples to whom Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians, reminding them of their election, 1:26-31. And those elitists whom Paul spoke of in Titus. Likewise with those Peter spoke concerning in both of his epistles, calling them elect. And of the Thessalonicans. And the Ephesians as well. And, all over the Scriptures. And there is not one person saved who isn't elect in Scripture because it doesn't happen.

Asinine comments like willies need not even be addressed when they attack others for believing the truths of Scripture and then in turn resort to name-calling. What is really going on is a professing believer is showing contempt for God, His ways and His Word. He needs to be left to his own devices, Romans 16:17. He does not walk as he should walk and is merely causing division and slight upon the Word of God.

 

[Issachar92]

Nonsense? Tell God that.

(and then explain to me why it is nonsense?) It is actually CONTEXT that I am trying to show. what is wrong with it? can you prove it wrong?? or are you just going to attack?

Finish romans 8: 1? WHo said it is not finished. and it really does not matter.

There is NO CONDEMNTATION TO THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST.. - Tht is a fact. Ad nothing changes that.

WHO (those in Christ, and are saved unconditionally, who are under no condemnation) DO NOT WALK ACCORDING TO THE FLESH BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.

whether you have that at the end of vs 1 or not, It is Mentioned in verse 4. and the point is still the same. Gods people (those saved by FAITH) walk according to the spirit (not perfect)

Ok, i'll explain how its nonsense, you responded to my post, where I stated with proof from the bible that Faith and obedience go hand in hand, they are synonymous.

So the avoidance of obedience is one thing, but the second thing is, obeying Jesus = pharisee?
This is absolute hogwash, the pharisees were the ones who DIDNT obey Jesus, they were the ones who didnt obey the scriptures, instead they decided to go with their own tradition.

So obedience to scriptures = not being a pharisee, better luck next time.

 

[BeyondET]

Unfortunately the camp here against Calvinists have been the ugliest, angriest, lying crowd.

It's interesting that even John Calvin didn't like the name Calvinists first coined by a Lutheran theologian in 1552.

 

[Adstar]

Unfortunately the camp here against Calvinists have been the ugliest, angriest, lying crowd.

And this is a prime example of why i avoid calvinist debates.. calvinists always end up attacking the person who does not believe as they do.. ""ugliest"" , ""lying crowd""

They play the person not the ball..

 

[kaylagrl]

I agree, the anti-calvinists can't stand the doctrine of election and hate when Scripture reproves them and then they get bent. Unreal. Maybe they should make their own Bible?

Actually no,I was talking about Lynn. She quite surprised me and I told her she was over reacting.Ive never had her pitch into me before and say the things she did. As a said to her,with her screaming and accusations,who are you trying to convince,me or yourself? She really took me off guard,Ive never seen that side of her. I dont know fourth angel but I thought I knew Lynn and we were friends. I dont really know where I stand now.

Preacher,its not that I cannot stand the doctrine of election and I do not hate Scripture. As I have said,I have several dear friends that believe that and we would never talk to each other the way that thread carried on. We do not argue. Ive ministered in OSAS churches,never had an issue,in Calvinist churches,even a few Catholic churches,never had issues. We agree on the things we agree on and dont argue over the rest.The main message we shared was Jesus Saves. And we ministered in most every denomination you can think of. But in here people get positively evil if you say "well here's what Scripture says...." You dont need to make your own Bible the one we have says it all.I gave all kinds of verses and it was dismissed out of hand. Well there are these Scriptures over here.Yes,ok,but they dont negate the fact that "whosoever will" may come. It doesn't change "believe on the Lord and you will be saved" that He is the "propitiation for all our sins" You cant just rip out a third of the Bible. No one would answer the verses I put forth.They just shared another set of verses and screamed that I was ignoring their verses. No one gave me an answer for the verses I shared.It was like I made them up. I just wanted an answer to those verses and why would God have a group of people he elected and a group He was going to destroy. I dont see that as a loving God,a God that allows you no choice, that you cant turn from sin.You are doomed in sin and Hes telling you to repent but you cant because you were selected for hell. And when I tried to ask this and understand this I was screamed at and accused of all manner of things. So I dont understand why the hysterics preacher. I dont understand why no one will calmly explain this to me and answer the Scriptures I put forth. Because when someone screams me down here,or in life,I tune them out. I dont deal with people that dont have self control.I walk away. I do not understand the hysterics and anger,I just dont.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok, i'll explain how its nonsense, you responded to my post, where I stated with proof from the bible that Faith and obedience go hand in hand, they are synonymous.

Yep and I agreed, and did not say anything which would go contrary to what you said.

So the avoidance of obedience is one thing, but the second thing is, obeying Jesus = pharisee?

who said obeying jesus was a pharisee? Not me.. I did not even mention a pharisee..

This is absolute hogwash, the pharisees were the ones who DIDNT obey Jesus, they were the ones who didnt obey the scriptures, instead they decided to go with their own tradition.

So obedience to scriptures = not being a pharisee, better luck next time.

Better luck? How about you show some better comprehension, and maybe a little bit of understanding. You just judged e for saying something I never said or intended..

I was not refuting your post. I was adding to it.. to make it more precise, I agreed with what you said, I just thought it went deeper.

Oh, except for one item, Obedience does not equal faith. Faith leads to obedience.. I swapped that around because I thought that was more precise.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Asinine comments like willies need not even be addressed when they attack others for believing the truths of Scripture and then in turn resort to name-calling.

This is why I have this person on ignore. I hope someone reported this comment, This also goes to show just what a posteer said earlier.. The hypocricy of alot of people who hold to Calvinism is just out of this world.. He attacks Willy by saying Willy resorted to name calling, By calling willy (prety much a 3 letter name)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And this is a prime example of why i avoid calvinist debates.. calvinists always end up attacking the person who does not believe as they do.. ""ugliest"" , ""lying crowd""

They play the person not the ball..

It is best to just ignore it.. If it gets to bad, Ignore the person, so you do not have to read his hate..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually no,I was talking about Lynn. She quite surprised me and I told her she was over reacting.Ive never had her pitch into me before and say the things she did. As a said to her,with her screaming and accusations,who are you trying to convince,me or yourself? She really took me off guard,Ive never seen that side of her. I dont know fourth angel but I thought I knew Lynn and we were friends. I dont really know where I stand now.

Preacher,its not that I cannot stand the doctrine of election and I do not hate Scripture. As I have said,I have several dear friends that believe that and we would never talk to each other the way that thread carried on. We do not argue. Ive ministered in OSAS churches,never had an issue,in Calvinist churches,even a few Catholic churches,never had issues. We agree on the things we agree on and dont argue over the rest.The main message we shared was Jesus Saves. And we ministered in most every denomination you can think of. But in here people get positively evil if you say "well here's what Scripture says...." You dont need to make your own Bible the one we have says it all.I gave all kinds of verses and it was dismissed out of hand. Well there are these Scriptures over here.Yes,ok,but they dont negate the fact that "whosoever will" may come. It doesn't change "believe on the Lord and you will be saved" that He is the "propitiation for all our sins" You cant just rip out a third of the Bible. No one would answer the verses I put forth.They just shared another set of verses and screamed that I was ignoring their verses. No one gave me an answer for the verses I shared.It was like I made them up. I just wanted an answer to those verses and why would God have a group of people he elected and a group He was going to destroy. I dont see that as a loving God,a God that allows you no choice, that you cant turn from sin.You are doomed in sin and Hes telling you to repent but you cant because you were selected for hell. And when I tried to ask this and understand this I was screamed at and accused of all manner of things. So I dont understand why the hysterics preacher. I dont understand why no one will calmly explain this to me and answer the Scriptures I put forth. Because when someone screams me down here,or in life,I tune them out. I dont deal with people that dont have self control.I walk away. I do not understand the hysterics and anger,I just dont.

I do not think it is the churches themselves. But a few people within the churches..even in here, I have many calvanist and arminian friends who are not among the proud name callers boasters and attackers..

 

[sevenseas]

Some of you can really distort what others have said,

 

[Issachar92]

Actually no,I was talking about Lynn. She quite surprised me and I told her she was over reacting.Ive never had her pitch into me before and say the things she did. As a said to her,with her screaming and accusations,who are you trying to convince,me or yourself? She really took me off guard,Ive never seen that side of her. I dont know fourth angel but I thought I knew Lynn and we were friends. I dont really know where I stand now.

Preacher,its not that I cannot stand the doctrine of election and I do not hate Scripture. As I have said,I have several dear friends that believe that and we would never talk to each other the way that thread carried on. We do not argue. Ive ministered in OSAS churches,never had an issue,in Calvinist churches,even a few Catholic churches,never had issues. We agree on the things we agree on and dont argue over the rest.The main message we shared was Jesus Saves. And we ministered in most every denomination you can think of. But in here people get positively evil if you say "well here's what Scripture says...." You dont need to make your own Bible the one we have says it all.I gave all kinds of verses and it was dismissed out of hand. Well there are these Scriptures over here.Yes,ok,but they dont negate the fact that "whosoever will" may come. It doesn't change "believe on the Lord and you will be saved" that He is the "propitiation for all our sins" You cant just rip out a third of the Bible. No one would answer the verses I put forth.They just shared another set of verses and screamed that I was ignoring their verses. No one gave me an answer for the verses I shared.It was like I made them up. I just wanted an answer to those verses and why would God have a group of people he elected and a group He was going to destroy. I dont see that as a loving God,a God that allows you no choice, that you cant turn from sin.You are doomed in sin and Hes telling you to repent but you cant because you were selected for hell. And when I tried to ask this and understand this I was screamed at and accused of all manner of things. So I dont understand why the hysterics preacher. I dont understand why no one will calmly explain this to me and answer the Scriptures I put forth. Because when someone screams me down here,or in life,I tune them out. I dont deal with people that dont have self control.I walk away. I do not understand the hysterics and anger,I just dont.

I will try to translate the whosoever passages into reformationese:

The whosoever will come is true, and we the reformed affirm this 100%.

HOWEVER; dun dun duuuu! Only the elect are the whosoever will, because no one WILLS to come to Jesus unless the Father first draws.

 

[kaylagrl]

Anyone who reads the thread honestly can see that the Arminian side of the debate are the ones who have either A. problems with reading comprehension, or B. just flat out liars and hostile toward everyone who doesn't agree. The level of misrepresentation from the side of the Arminians is unreal.

And you are a big part of the problem! It was your mouth that kept the vitriol going.I dont know you and we haven't talked here but I was amazed at the things you were spouting.Im seldom this direct with a person but your attitude stinks to high heaven!! Because I disagree with your view Im an idiot and a liar?! Perhaps you need a few years on you. Quite a young pup to be throwing dispersions on everyone that disagrees with you. Im Pentecostal and plenty of people here disagree with tongues,some think its possession,that you cant even be saved and believe in tongues.Ive never turned around and said "you're a liar,your not a Christian, you're too stunned to understand the Bible as I see it". I expect such immaturity from a young pup like you but you need to stop stirring the pot and putting brothers and sisters against each other. I ministered in every denomination and not once did we attack each other and carry on the way people have in that thread. It was like monkeys at the zoo. And preacher Im disappointed to see you hit like on this comment. It saddens me,as a fellow brother in ministry I thought we'd have a better relationship though there are things we disagree on.I was not misrepresenting anything.I was asking for clarification. I pay little attention to people that throw tantrums. If you cant discuss then why be here? If everyone is just too stupid to see it your way fourth angel then why waste your time on us. Like I said,very few people here would agree with Pentecost,Id say Im way in the minority,but you've never seen me scream that tongues is right,that you all are just to stunned to get in and you're a liar. Never said it. So I suggest you grow up and perhaps get out in life and meet a few Christians from other denominations and realize that there is nothing to fear if they disagree with you.You dont have to slander people just because they dont see it your way. And your attitude goes a long way to people ignoring your message when you insult their intelligence. Just something to think about.

 

[kaylagrl]

I have been here in CC for a few years.. It happens with both sides. Thats why when most people see an arminian vs a calvanist thread, they run, Because both sides can get nasty!

I would venture to say most people here are Ethernet calvanist or arminian, But people seem to also like to put then under one of the teo parties. Tat does not help much either, Because they hear key words, nd ASSUME they know what the other believes outwith even trying to figure it out.

No one wanted to calmly answer my questions.I was trying to understand what they were saying and when I questioned I was lying on people and putting words in their mouths.I shared Scripture and no one either would or could explain those verses to me. It was a free for all,more so than usual. It was hateful. And still none of my questions were answered.Im still in the dark and them Im told Im too stupid to get it,I hate Scripture and I twisted verses,when all I did was post them directly out of the Bible and asked for explanation.It was unbelievable.Never in my life saw so much animosity except when talking about Jews.smh. Horrid.

 

[lonestar26]

Recently I made this post in a thread (I edited out the persons name I addressed which said "Hello ________ !):



A person then stated in response to the above "you are now starting to tread the works based salvation waters." I then asked for proof of this from my statement and later, this same person stated that the part that is bold above is "treading works based salvation." That is, because God has His elect out there, and I believe this biblical truth, then I am treading works based salvation waters. LOL! Oh, well.

Frankly that is a misguided and unfounded assertion so I wanted to allow others to chime in:

Some of you can really distort what others have said, so you'll find some way to spin my statement out of disdain for election, for me &c so I wanted to capture several more asinine takes on what I said and see exactly how others will twist what I've said in diablos fashion.

Others of you will find the false accusation as bizarre and unfounded as I have, and rightly so since there is nothing even remotely true about the false accusation.

I am the one you are talking about here and at least have the courage to say so. What a coward you are. Man up and stop playing little boy games.



I said that you were trading the waters of work based salvation for one reason.

God has His elect out there that He will save in time.

Saying God has his elect out there and that he will save them in time, I read this to mean that you are doing something in your own power for God to save you. Jesus Christ and him crucified, buried, raised again, and sitting on the right hand of God saves you period.

When people make statements like God will save them in time, it signals they are trying to do something in addition to the finished work of Jesus Christ. If this is not you, then man up and have a conversation. Do not go create a thread bashing people and falsely accusing them of having 2 accounts as you did to me and freenchrist.

Now that you have had a good laugh at my expense, falsely accused me of being some person named freenchrist, and I am not. Man up and stop playing playground games because something stung you.

I never said you were in the deep waters of works based salvation, I said you were treading works based salvation waters based on your own statement saying God saves you in time. Get this through your ears and down in your spirit man.

JESUS + NOTHING YOU DO BEFORE OR AFTER CONVERSION= EVERYTHING.

A real man would apologize and then move out smartly.