God hating you before you're born?

[BenFTW]

I disagree. You really really need to get sound in doctrine and put an end to misrepresenting people. You directly misrepresented me purposefully. Then you became insulting only to play victim.

That you've been Hoodwinked by an Open Theist should be cause for alarm to you.

Common ground seeking = compromise of truth. Unity isn't manufactured it is to be maintained and that is only done by not compromising.

Guy I had no clue you were even on this thread when I was making my first post, and my response to you later was still with the original post in mind. I don't know your beliefs, my posts were in reference to ForthAngel, albeit misunderstood (because he then clarified). I wasn't hoodwinked by an open theist, the article isn't dependent upon open theism. I mainly appreciated one point in the article, so you can settle down with this hoodwinked silliness.

Common ground seeking isn't compromise when we are trying to find absolute truth together. This is where I stand, and this is where you stand. Now, what does scripture say? You see? That isn't hard, but no. That isn't your approach. You wish to cause strife and insult passive aggressively. You need to grow up, and you're fifty-two. A little meekness goes a long way. (of which I am at this moment lacking apparently)

 

[trofimus]

Read G.W. Leibniz - Theodicy

The solution is simple and both sides can be satisfied.

 

[preacher4truth]

Guy I had no clue you were even on this thread when I was making my first post, and my response to you later was still with the original post in mind. I don't know your beliefs, my posts were in reference to ForthAngel

You're being untruthful. Below is what you posted to me. Additionally I erased the balance of the above post due to its insulting nature and disrespect. You need to show respect to others, your behavior is unChristian.

Here is your post. Try being truthful in the future:

So have you assumed you're one of the lucky chosen as God creates people to damnation? You preach the Gospel only to reach the few but have no heart for the destined to Hell? Are you mad? Does not God's word state that His desire is that all be saved? How is it that such a desire exists in our God, if He has destined some to Hell? Hmmmm? It is contradictory by nature.

This doesn't even require study but common sense. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world. That means all. God has destined that salvation be available to all, it is, but not all believe in the Lord Jesus. If you for one moment think that the Lord has destined your sister, your brother, your mother or your father (whomever you love) to Hell you truly need to spend not only time studying but getting to know God's heart.

 

[BenFTW]

You're being untruthful. Below is what you posted to me. Additionally I erased the balance of the above post due to its insulting nature and disrespect. You need to show respect to others, your behavior is unChristian.

Here is your post. Try being truthful in the future:

That doesn't contradict what I am saying. My posts were in reference to the OP that I apparently misinterpreted to mean that people get destined to Hell (which he thankfully clarified but I didn't read until much later) and when responding to you I still had it in mind that that was the belief system being spoken of. What I wrote to you can be called being facetious and sarcastic yet making a point, but I wasn't lying or misrepresenting with malice. So for the hundredth time, stop calling me a liar because you are in the wrong. Your ignorance to the situation from my side is causing you to defame me.

 

[BenFTW]

Sorry Iamlearning for derailing your thread. I just don't like people making false allegations for the purpose of defamation. I don't endorse everything on the link I sent you, I just like point number 3. Do your due diligence, and keep studying.

 

[Depleted]

Hi everyone! I am reading the Why does God hate Esau post and ForthAngel mentions this: I think it's interesting that many are saying it was because of something Esau did or because of the condition of his heart. Paul refutes this in Romans 9 and makes it clear that God hated him before he had done anything good or bad and before he was born.

I would like to understand this a little better...

I have read Romans 9 and it indeed says we all depend on God's mercy no matter what we do, if we are loved we are loved, if we are hardened by God, we are hardened. Does this means that if we are not chosen by God before birth all we can do is struggle in life like worms crawling on the floor, as He watches our struggles with indifference or contempt?

On the other hand, I was raised a Catholic and taught sins and evil deeds bring God's punishment. I am at a moment right now in which I feel a lot of self-loathe for some bad mistakes I made in my past, I confessed them but I still feel scruples, they haunt me a lot. But this stated in Romans 9 could mean that there was nothing I could do to escape this destiny and not commit these mistakes because if I am not chosen by God before birth my life won't be full of grace it will just be a heap of darkness and disgrace and full period.

I have to say this idea of being rejected by God already before birth and not being able to do or be anything to change this fact terrifies me a little bit.

Does God doom some of us to a life of disgrace because he hates us even before birth? Are some of our prayers unanswered because of that? What is the point of praying then, or going to church, if doing things won't make a difference in God's eyes? Is faith then an option or it doesn't matter whether you have faith or not?

What could you tell me about it? I am still learning. Thank you for your answers I truly appreciate your time, wisdom and guidance, may God bless you.

John 6:35-40
[FONT=&quot]35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”[/FONT]

It isn't we don't have choice. We have always had the choice to come to God. It's that choice always comes to "don't wanna," unless the Lord chooses us. He changes our mind on "don't wanna."

 

[Depleted]

*** we have free will--- whosoever wills so can be saved---God does not choose, we choose*** God so loved the world--- Christ died for all men*** the Gospel is we can be saved...

Complete fabrication of your mind, but that doesn't seem to stop you from preaching it as if that is the gospel message.

 

[Depleted]

People are going to have a lot of views on this. Since you quoted me, I will try and present mine at the very least.

First of all, I don't believe God predestined anyone to hell. This is called equal ultimacy and it is a belief I don't adhere to. Scripture doesn't teach it.

Scripture does teach, however, that all men are consigned to damnation because of the fall that took place with Adam. We are born into rebellion against God. The psalmist says "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."

Scripture also teaches that God, in his mercy, has chosen a people out of the world to save. We know that he chooses according to his own will and purpose and it is not dependent upon human will or exertion as stated in Romans 9 and many other places.

The full chapter of Romans 9 teaches that God desires to show his justice and wrath, so he chooses not to save all people so that this aspect of his nature can be manifested. God also wishes to show his mercy and love, so he chose some to save by means of the Gospel.

The opposing view is that "God is unjust for doing this", but as you can clearly read in Romans 9, Paul refutes this claim. The fair thing for God to do would be to let us all die in our sins, but in his mercy has chosen to save some for his own glory, apart from anything good or bad they may have done, or will do.

Free-will thinkers can't grasp this truth of scripture, so they come up with elaborate reasons as to why God would have chosen one unborn child over another, but Paul clearly explains it. It's literally all over his writings.

My view (the reformed view, and biblical view as far as I'm concerned) teaches that our will is in bondage to sin since the fall. We are slaves to sin, dead in our sins, do not seek after God, and are incapable of pleasing God or submitting to his law.

This isn't to say that we don't have a choice, because we do make choices. But our choice is based upon our sin nature. This is what I believe scripture teaches in a nutshell.

This is my logic. Please tell me where I miss it biblically.

All have sinned, and therefore deserve God's wrath as the sentence for sinning. His wrath is separation from him, death, and hell. All deserve that.

He chose to save some out of all for his divine purpose.

How does that not mean he purposely didn't choose to save the others?

 

[Depleted]

I was just proved wrong, that is a great explanation. The idea that God elects those to hell in unbiblical, the idea that our will can chose God is also unbiblical, our free sinful will chooses exactly what it wants sin, why because we love sin rather than the light and if we do chose the light, it was done in God. John 3:16-21

In America, we get to vote on who we want in office.

We elected Trump.

How does that not mean we did not elect Hillary?

 

[Depleted]

*** God foreknowledge does not interfere with our free wll--- we choose to accept or reject God---- God's desire is all to be saved---- to say we are predestined by God to be lost is wrong...

And you cannot prove one iota of what you say, but, boy, you're going to keep saying it. You are wrong. I can prove it biblically. Since you claim this is wrong, prove your claims biblically. I'll even give you a head start. Joshua was already elected.

 

[ForthAngel]

This is my logic. Please tell me where I miss it biblically.

All have sinned, and therefore deserve God's wrath as the sentence for sinning. His wrath is separation from him, death, and hell. All deserve that.

He chose to save some out of all for his divine purpose.

How does that not mean he purposely didn't choose to save the others?

If you are referring to what I mean by equal ultimacy, it simply means God doesn't force us to sin and rebel. We aren't puppets. He does choose to not save some, but he is not active in our rebellion. That's all us. In fact, I would argue that he actively restrains the evil of men through his common grace, thus preventing us from being more evil than we otherwise would be.

 

[trofimus]

Nice new avatar, Depleted

 

[Depleted]

Thank you very much for your answer. This was a new view of God for me, I have always been taught God is pure and perfect Love. I didn't know he chose some people over others no matter what you do.

This left me a little anguished (more than a little, actually). So is there nothing we can do to save ourselves in case God didn't choose us as one of His blessed children from the start? Praying? Going to church? Confession? Repentance? Nothing? :S

Anxiety levels rising! May God have mercy on all of us

I will give you this. Your church, (RCC), teaches following their guidelines gets you to heaven. They are wrong. No, you cannot be saved by going to church, confession, communion, confirmation, and last rites. And the RCC doesn't teach "repent." It teaches "penance." It's something different than repent.

John 6:[FONT=&quot]37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[Depleted]

I would probably prefer the term "natural will", because "free will" is not logically possible.

Agreed, but most people don't get it. Sort of like saying, "I prefer tradescantia to rose."

 

[trofimus]

If you are referring to what I mean by equal ultimacy, it simply means God doesn't force us to sin and rebel. We aren't puppets. He does choose to not save some, but he is not active in our rebellion. That's all us. In fact, I would argue that he actively restrains the evil of men through his common grace, thus preventing us from being more evil than we otherwise would be.

I almost agree.

What would you think when I use your definition and edit it:

God doesn't force us to sin and rebel. We aren't puppets. We sin by our own will (not "free will", but still our own).
He does choose to not save some, but he is not active in our rebellion.
But He can actively make some people blind and closed to the words of the Gospel so that they are not saved and stay in their wickedness.
He actively restrains the evil of men through his common grace, thus preventing us from being more evil than we otherwise would be.
He chooses a special group of people, calls them, gives them mercy to come to Christ and gives them faith, faith that endures to the end and bears fruit and deeds.

 

[Depleted]

The Scriptures concerning Salvation are interpreted through God's Grace, not our sinfulness*** no matter how lost we are we can choose God's Salvation because His Grace opens the door***even the thief on the cross was reached by Grace not predestination...

So, God lied in Romans 8? What a sad gospel you have.

 

[Depleted]

Yes that makes sense... thank you

It only makes sense, if you think humans are sovereign over God. We are the master, and God is the mere servant. Please do NOT take 88 words to heart. He is wrong, and shows it by his lack of evidence.

God's sense is different than human's sense.

 

[Issachar92]

Its about the nations of Esau and Jacob, edomites and israelites. Esau never served Jacob personally, its all about the nations.
Even the jewish rabbis realize this.

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't know who he is, I just came across the article and found it enlightening. Not all preachers are sound on everything and yet spot on on certain topics. Maybe instead of attempting to defame you should attempt to edify and not propagate a doctrine that portrays the Lord negatively.

If some people don't agree with someone else's viewpoint - that gives them in their own mind "the Christian right" to attack those people that have a different view then you do. I'd just ignore them and discuss things with people that are not abusive and insulting. That way we can learn from each other in a proper atmosphere.

 

[Depleted]

What is it that you find all through out the Gospel? Repentance. To change one's mind and to turn towards God, or in the case of the Gospel, to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. So let me ask you, is salvation available to all? What does John 3:16 say? Did not Christ come to save, and not condemn the world? So your concern for your own soul is testament to your repentance, is it not? Or at the very least, your desire to repent. This being the case, salvation is available to whosoever believes, and you happen to be a whosoever.

What I'm getting at is that God doesn't hate you. He loves you, and He loves the world. That your heart is concerned about this topic is in and of itself revealing to its status. As a believer you have salvation, you have repented. You are not doomed to mediocrity but rather the promises of God in Christ Jesus are "yes" and "amen."

Now, ForthAngel has misused this verse to answer a question that the context wasn't attempting to answer. This article here is revealing and will help you understand, especially #3 (the refutation to the deterministic view).

How do you respond to Romans 9? - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

As an added tidbit, just in Romans 10 it should soothe your concerns about salvation.

Romans 10:10-12 King James Version (KJV)

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

And, Iam, also don't trust in universalism or Word of Faith teachings. Romans 9 really does say exactly what Romans 9 meant to say.