Not By Works

JIMBO43 · Apr 10, 2017

See thats where you assume you speak for everyone... (you dont).

You speak with your tougne and you write with your hand... its the same for being saved,,, you show your fruits and we will know them by the fruits...

If you dont show them then how can you be saved..

If however you are scared to be baptised then go with a friend... you can even Google christian meetings where they have bands and meetings and baptisms... In fields and you dont have to go to church to be baptised.. alltho it is something that the Body of Christ enjoys seeing...

Magenta · Apr 10, 2017

Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage on "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"

Those who believe that baptism is required for salvation are quick to use 1 Peter 3:21 as a “proof text,” because it states “baptism now saves you.” Was Peter really saying that the act of being baptized is what saves us? If he were, he would be contradicting many other passages of Scripture that clearly show people being saved (as evidenced by their receiving the Holy Spirit) prior to being baptized or without being baptized at all (like the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43). A good example of someone who was saved before being baptized is Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. We know that they were saved before being baptized because they had received the Holy Spirit, which is the evidence of salvation (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 1:13; 1 John 3:24). The evidence of their salvation was the reason Peter allowed them to be baptized. Countless passages of Scripture clearly teach that salvation comes when one believes in the gospel, at which time he or she is sealed “in Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13).

Thankfully, though, we don’t have to guess at what Peter means in this verse because he clarifies that for us with the phrase “not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience.” While Peter is connecting baptism with salvation, it is not the act of being baptized that he is referring to (not the removal of dirt from the flesh). Being immersed in water does nothing but wash away dirt. What Peter is referring to is what baptism represents, which is what saves us (an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ). In other words, Peter is simply connecting baptism with belief. It is not the getting-wet part that saves but is the “appeal to God for a clean conscience” which is signified by baptism, that saves us. The appeal to God always comes first. First belief and repentance, then we are baptized to publicly identify ourselves with Christ.

An excellent explanation of this passage is given by Dr. Kenneth Wuest, author of Word Studies in the Greek New Testament. “Water baptism is clearly in the apostle's mind, not the baptism by the Holy Spirit, for he speaks of the waters of the flood as saving the inmates of the ark, and in this verse, of baptism saving believers. But he says that it saves them only as a counterpart. That is, water baptism is the counterpart of the reality, salvation. It can only save as a counterpart, not actually. The Old Testament sacrifices were counterparts of the reality, the Lord Jesus. They did not actually save the believer, only in type. It is not argued here that these sacrifices are analogous to Christian water baptism. The author is merely using them as an illustration of the use of the word 'counterpart.'

"So water baptism only saves the believer in type. The Old Testament Jew was saved before he brought the offering. That offering was only his outward testimony that he was placing faith in the Lamb of God of whom these sacrifices were a type....Water baptism is the outward testimony of the believer's inward faith. The person is saved the moment he places his faith in the Lord Jesus. Water baptism is the visible testimony to his faith and the salvation he was given in answer to that faith. Peter is careful to inform his readers that he is not teaching baptismal regeneration, namely, that a person who submits to baptism is thereby regenerated, for he says, 'not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.' Baptism, Peter explains, does not wash away the filth of the flesh, either in a literal sense as a bath for the body, nor in a metaphorical sense as a cleansing for the soul. No ceremonies really affect the conscience. But he defines what he means by salvation, in the words 'the answer of a good conscience toward God," and he explains how this is accomplished, namely, 'by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,' in that the believing sinner is identified with Him in that resurrection.”

Part of the confusion on this passage comes from the fact that in many ways the purpose of baptism as a public declaration of one’s faith in Christ and identification with Him has been replaced by “making a decision for Christ” or “praying a sinner’s prayer.” Baptism has been relegated to something that is done later. Yet to Peter or any of the first-century Christians, the idea that a person would confess Christ as his Savior and not be baptized as soon as possible would have been unheard of. Therefore, it is not surprising that Peter would see baptism as almost synonymous with salvation. Yet Peter makes it clear in this verse that it is not the ritual itself that saves, but the fact that we are united with Christ in His resurrection through faith, “the pledge of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 3:21).

Therefore, the baptism that Peter says saves us is the one that is preceded by faith in the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ that justifies the unrighteous sinner (Romans 3:25-26; 4:5). Baptism is the outward sign of what God has done “by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5). https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-1Peter-3-21.html

eternally-gratefull · Apr 10, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

at least when someone says I screwed up. And I did, I admit it, I do not attack the messenger.

Feel free to continue on..

BeyondET · Apr 10, 2017

Veteran said:

Yup, Bold words are just emphasizing, Doesn't lead to the verses. Got to place them to count.

BillG · Apr 10, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

Sorry mate but you didn't

you said "Is this the reason why you havent been baptised either?

That is an assumption and not the question that you think you have asked me above.

JIMBO43 · Apr 10, 2017

is this the reason ? meaning is it a reason for you ?

sorry mate for coming across the wrong way..

Ok so ill ask you have you been baptised ?

JIMBO43 · Apr 10, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

(is this the reason does not mean this is the reason does it )

JIMBO43 · Apr 10, 2017

I think its just a tad bit hipocritical that all the mockers Of Gods works who have assumed all sorts in this thread of people not just me...

I reall do think that someone asking the question is this the reason is not assuming anything..

Personally billy g its the oppersite mate,,, its the assumers assuming that and also assuming that Gods instructions are false that ye should hope for salvation...

BillG · Apr 10, 2017

Once again a bit harsh, actually I go beyond a bit harsh and say extremely harsh.

You have called fellow believers as being scum, the scum of Satan. In fact you are accusing them as being like satan, doing everything within their power to lead people away from Jesus.

Why?

My guess is that it is because doctrinally they differ from you.
You are right and they are wrong.

The sad fact is that in today's church there doctrinal differences. I don't get it, I hate it and it breaks my heart.

But that does not give you the right to post what you did above.

Can you quote any post that someone has posted to you that you are scum, that you are doing the devils work.
If so I would say the same to them as I'm saying to you.

Be very careful about what you say. One day you, me and everyone will have to stand before God and answer for what our tongue has said.

We all need to be very careful of the following

Matthew 5:22-24
But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

And we need to be very mindful of the following

Ephesians 4:29-32
Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

BillG · Apr 10, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

Yep I have been baptised, fully immersed

valiant · Apr 10, 2017

Skinski7 said:

I don't see any mention of obedience here.

Faith is not necessarily inclusive of obedience (as marriage demonstrates) although faith will result in obedience in the case of the Christian when he is fully following God.

It is ACTUALLY pistis. But in context it means 'to obedience by belief'. In other words he was calling all nations to obey by 'believing'.

That is true but one does not necessarily mean the other. Many words have the same root as an other and yet can be very distinct in meaning. How much do you actually know Greek as opposed to pontificating about something of which you know nothing on the basis of ignorance?

peitho has no connection with pisteuo which means 'believe'.

yes the obedience which sprang from faith. First he believed, then he obeyed.

.

yes if they believed then they would obey.

yes he believed even when he had nothing to go on except God's word. Belief first, obedience follows as a result.

NO! The belief in 4.5 was 'without works'. Your translation may say 'steps of faith' but the original does not. The faith that counted for righteousness was specifically said to be not of his works. We suggest you buy a translation which is literal and not a paraphrase

One who believes, then acts according to his faith, but faith comes first and is of prime importance in context. Abraham believed God. That is what made him accepted as righteous, not the subsequent works he performed.

Indeed it specifically says that it was to someone who did NOT work (Rom 4.5),

It may be so under a lie. But not under eternal security,

'They think'? Jesus said that His death was substitutionary - Mark 10.45.

doing is the RESULT of salvation,

That is because it is taught badly. A head faith and not a heart faith.

Not through teaching eternal security based on the definite promises of God. God nowhere says they can 'engage in wickedness'. YOU are wickedly misrepresenting the truth.

YOU THINK ABOUT IT

JIMBO43 · Apr 10, 2017

BillG said:

Once again a bit harsh, actually I go beyond a bit harsh and say extremely harsh.

You have called fellow believers as being scum, the scum of Satan. In fact you are accusing them as being like satan, doing everything within their power to lead people away from Jesus.

Why?

My guess is that it is because doctrinally they differ from you.
You are right and they are wrong.

The sad fact is that in today's church there doctrinal differences. I don't get it, I hate it and it breaks my heart.

But that does not give you the right to post what you did above.

Can you quote any post that someone has posted to you that you are scum, that you are doing the devils work.
If so I would say the same to them as I'm saying to you.

Be very careful about what you say. One day you, me and everyone will have to stand before God and answer for what our tongue has said.

We all need to be very careful of the following

Matthew 5:22-24
But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

And we need to be very mindful of the following

Ephesians 4:29-32
Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

Yup i couldnt agree more to be kind is also to tell the truth... which is those who dont obey God are of Satan until they do obey God..

blue_ladybug · Apr 10, 2017

We are told to do good works, to show love for God and others. However, good works are NOT required to keep or maintain salvation. By the same token, getting baptized doesn't get you saved. Believing on Jesus and having faith--that is what gives us our salvation.

Good works have NOTHING to do with getting saved, keeping salvation, OR maintaining salvation.

JIMBO43 said:

JIMBO43 · Apr 10, 2017

This is fact Satan didnt obey God and dishonered his holy statutes,,, Holy sacrement are also something to be honoured like wedding vows... and there not to be disobeyed by no body or else you have a n advocate with he father.. church members of the body know this

Now if you deliberately do this to please satan or the crowd of disobediant assumers here then you are of satan in my book,, and you must repent and resist and hope for salvation..

Grace777x70 · Apr 10, 2017

We "get" to do good works in participating in them with Him - the Father's works in us which He has prepared from the foundation of the world. We are sons/daughters and we are involved in the Families business of love and grace towards others.

Jesus in and through us bearing His fruit by the Holy Spirit is the originator and power for these good works.

BillG · Apr 10, 2017

Veteran said:

I don't speak in tongues but I believe in Jesus.

So have I not been annointed by Jesus, am I not saved?

I was once told that because I didn't speak in tongues I wasn't saved. Do you think that?

To me tongues is a gift not and not something that baptises a person into the church.

The Holy Spirit unites me with Christ.
The Holy Spirit in me works to conform me to be like Christ, loving others.

I seek that more than I do tongues.

If I have misunderstood you then please let me know.

JIMBO43 · Apr 10, 2017

blue_ladybug said:

And to me your just another member who goes with the crowd.. Baptism is something sacred.... i dont see or try to see what it doesnt do....... but only what it does..

blue_ladybug · Apr 10, 2017

People who already have salvation, don't need to hope for it. So your view on that is erroneous. Christians disobey God all the time. It's called human nature. But they repent and are forgiven, with their salvation STILL intact.

And holy sacrament is NOT to be honored as wedding vows. Wedding vows get broken every day. How honorable is that? LOL .. Holy sacrament doesn't provide salvation, nor does it maintain salvation. I haven't taken sacrament in decades, yet I'm still saved.

JIMBO43 said:

valiant · Apr 10, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

True because when God saves a man He causes him to be justified and reborn. That is the first step in His salvation. He then works in him to produce what is His good pleasure. Thus his life afterwards shows he has been saved.

But being baptised is a fruit of salvation. You die with Christ then you are baptised.

blue_ladybug · Apr 10, 2017

What does baptism do? It does NOT get you saved. It does NOT maintain salvation. It is merely a symbol of a commitment to be a Christian and get saved. But being baptized does NOT mean you're saved.

JIMBO43 said:

Not By Works

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