Tongues???

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
R

respectfully

Guest
if the whole bible is not true than the bible is not sound doctrine...I believe that all of the bible remains true because it is not my Word...it is God's Word. 2 timothy 3:16

my point: I believe and have faith in God....but concerning second baptism....it's in the scriptures... as you've read I believe it and receive in my heart and I am not going to take it out of my heart and discard it .
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
You made that last bit up, the part about tongues not being unknown to the speaker. (Paul makes a distinction between interpreting tongues and prophesying. Your calling interpretation a 'prophecy' hinders communication.) The Bible doesn't say the 120 understood all of the 17 or so languages and dialects they were speaking in.

There would be no reason, why I would make it up?

The word “unknown” was added in the seventeenth century. It’s unknown to the hearer not to the speaker who does not just speak in the air as some sort of evidence he has the Holy Spirit by speaking into the air.. No such thing as an outward gift of self-assurance. We walk by faith the unseen. Not by sight after some sign we could do and call kind of work self edifying.

It’s like another poster said: "tongues is not a stand alone gift because it does not come without interpretation.". In that way all gifts are two-fold.

The idea of self-deifying comes after the father of lies.

For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith (Christ’s) both of you and me. Rom 1:11

Like any gift if it does not mutual comfort both than it cannot be considered a gift. Speaking sound into the air that the speaker does not know cannot be considered a gift.

For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 1Co 14:8

I Corinthians 14:13 says for he who speaks in an unknown tongue to pray that he may interpret. If he knows the language, why does he have to pray to interpret?
That is answered in verse 8. If the Holy Spirit does not move and perform the interpretation of prophecy into the others language he should remain silent. If Paul prophecies the word of God without a understanding he should remain silent.


We see in chapter 12 that interpretation is a gift of the Spirit. Interpretation is accomplished through supernatural means, not because the speaker understands the language. If someone prays in tongues, Paul says his understanding is unfruitful.

The understanding of the other will not be fruitful if the Holy Spirit does not give the interpretation, as prophecy. Neither receives a gift in that case.(no fruit)
 
Last edited:

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,778
943
113
62
Quote "It is only normal for Pentecostals and Charismatics. "

Nope,I know Baptists,Methodists and even Catholics that speak in tongues. Trust me,Ive traveled in hundreds of churches,its not just a Pentecostal thing.
Yes, i know through charismatic movements in the sixties, and later then the churchrenewing movement which is also charismatic. The turned into these churches. Today you will find charismatics in almost all denominations. But i tell you out of them it would not happen. Before the teaching with the 2nd baptism came up in 1900 it was for non church normal to speak in tongues. Why not?
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,778
943
113
62
if the whole bible is not true than the bible is not sound doctrine...I believe that all of the bible remains true because it is not my Word...it is God's Word. 2 timothy 3:16

my point: I believe and have faith in God....but concerning second baptism....it's in the scriptures... as you've read I believe it and receive in my heart and I am not going to take it out of my heart and discard it .
I believe that the word of God is true, too. I am only wonder that before the year 1900 it was nowhere taught about a second baptism with the Holy Spirit. And then with the sign to speaking in tongues. I can't find this in Scripture. You must see i live in Germany and met only Christians which do not speak in tongues and this now since 30 years.
 
R

respectfully

Guest
people will steer you wrong....even I being not perfect can steer you wrong...bu God will never steer you wrong becaseuse God is perfect.

if you listen to God you will go in the right path and that means everything His word too...Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the "Word" of God.

now one more quote prov. 3:5-5 kjv trust in the lord with all of thine heart and lean not to thine own understanding...in all thy ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct thy paths
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Tongues is a sign to them that believe not. 'Divers tongues' is also among the manifestations of the Spirit give to believers 'for the common good.'
Tongues is a sign to them that believe not, as the end of the matter or Tongues is a sign to them that believe not, period .
It is always a sign to those who believe not (no faith).They who desire it to be sign to those who believe become their very own source of faith and seek their own approval, called self-edifying.

Speaking in tongues edifies the speaker. If it is interpreted it edifies the church. If it does not edify the whole Church as prophecy then the speaker should be silent.

I wonder if you read the word 'only' into these verses where it is not stated. Paul does not say that tongues is only for a sign to them that believe not.
He does not say tongues are a sign to those who believe(never). Those who believe hear the voice of God, prophecy, its Christ not seen we edify not ourselves..as in self righteousness.

It seems you desire it to be a sign to a believer, but that would violate the law not subject to change. It can’t be a sign of both those who do have faith and those who have none. They would be trying to serve two masters. Prophecy as the word of God, and speaking into the air mysteries that even the speaker has no understanding.

Your ideas or disjointed and incoherent here. It looks like idea tossed salad. If you have something to say, explain it clearly.

It would seem clear to me. No man will be found with a righteousness of their own self after some sign they could perform or they have no assurance they have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ.. .

Signs are for those who rebel against the word of God.

The Jews sought after signs in that way, it made the cross without effect. .

Did Christ say to them well done my faithful servants or depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you?

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

If it is clear with what Christ informs us why would you rebel against that
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,778
943
113
62
people will steer you wrong....even I being not perfect can steer you wrong...bu God will never steer you wrong becaseuse God is perfect.

if you listen to God you will go in the right path and that means everything His word too...Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the "Word" of God.

now one more quote prov. 3:5-5 kjv trust in the lord with all of thine heart and lean not to thine own understanding...in all thy ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct thy paths
Thank you! I know! Till today I can't see in this Pentecostal doctrine and later in the Charismatic movements with their different teachings the Holy Spirit. I just can't believe that the our heavenly father makes such a difference among his children.Those who get the" second baptism with the Holy Spirit" getting special gifts and the other not. This fit not together! If we got once the Holy Spirit we also got a gift according his will. There is no speaking from a second baptism with the proof for that speaking in tongues in the scripture.This is a man made doctrine in 1900. Otherwise we found find this clearly in the Bible and in the churchhistory.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,165
1,795
113
Yes, i know through charismatic movements in the sixties, and later then the churchrenewing movement which is also charismatic. The turned into these churches. Today you will find charismatics in almost all denominations. But i tell you out of them it would not happen. Before the teaching with the 2nd baptism came up in 1900 it was for non church normal to speak in tongues. Why not?
You are asking why speaking in tongues aren't common among non-Pentecostals and non-Charismatics. If a Methodist speaks in tongues, people will call him a Charismatic since he speaks in tongues. I think there is a problem with your question.

But to some of your other points, there are some references here and there to speaking in tongues throughout church history, but many, many more references to prophecies, visions, healings, and other miracles. If certain people were speaking in tongues and after 200 or 300 AD, church liturgy left no room for tongues and interpretation, then who would have known certain people were speaking in tongues? It wouldn't have been seen in public much at all.

And if church liturgy left no place for public tongues and interpretation and prophesying, then isn't it possible that the gift would have been left common?

After all, Paul wrote, 'Quench no the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings...." Does this imply that despising prophesyings might quench the Spirit? If the Holy Spirit's manifestations are not welcome, is it possible that the Spirit might give them less often? After a couple of hundred years, liturgy became extremely important, even though a specific liturgy is not commanded in scripture. There are commands in scripture related to allowing prophesying in church and how it is to be done. We can read second century church writings and see that there were churches that still had prophesying in church. But over time, it became less common. The Bible shows us the various members of the body of Christ could minister in church. Paul said "every one of you" in I Corinthians 14:26. But over the centuries, the 'laity' began to be restricted in using spiritual gifts in church.

And there are examples in the Old Testament of times when wonders and such things were rare. Gideon wanted to know where all the wonders were that he had heard about. There was no 'open vision' anymore when Samuel was a child. In Samuel's life, there was a renewal of the prophet ministry.

Judes 6:13
And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.

Read through the Gospels and see how often Jesus did miracles for those who believed. He said such things as 'according to your faith, be it unto you.' He taught about prayers being answered for those who believed.

Is it strange that if a group of people actually ask in faith for spiritual gifts, that the group that asks in faith might see more people with those spiritual gifts than those who do not ask in faith? It is pretty usual among Charismatics and Pentecostals to find people who believe that God does actually gift people with these gifts, and that God actually heals people. But how many people believe that in churches that do not teach that God does such things, or in churches that actively teach against such an idea?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,165
1,795
113
Another reference to a lack of signs at a point in history. Notice the Psalm laments this, and doesn't celebrate it
Psalm 74
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]They said in their hearts,
“Let us destroy them altogether.”
They have burned up all the meeting places of God in the land.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]9 We do not see our signs;
There is no longer any prophet;
Nor is there any among us who knows how long.
10 O God, how long will the adversary reproach?
Will the enemy blaspheme Your name forever?
11 Why do You withdraw Your hand, even Your right hand?
[/FONT]
[/FONT]

(NKJV)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
You are asking why speaking in tongues aren't common among non-Pentecostals and non-Charismatics. If a Methodist speaks in tongues, people will call him a Charismatic since he speaks in tongues. I think there is a problem with your question.

But to some of your other points, there are some references here and there to speaking in tongues throughout church history, but many, many more references to prophecies, visions, healings, and other miracles. If certain people were speaking in tongues and after 200 or 300 AD, church liturgy left no room for tongues and interpretation, then who would have known certain people were speaking in tongues? It wouldn't have been seen in public much at all.

And if church liturgy left no place for public tongues and interpretation and prophesying, then isn't it possible that the gift would have been left common?

After all, Paul wrote, 'Quench no the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings...." Does this imply that despising prophesyings might quench the Spirit? If the Holy Spirit's manifestations are not welcome, is it possible that the Spirit might give them less often? After a couple of hundred years, liturgy became extremely important, even though a specific liturgy is not commanded in scripture. There are commands in scripture related to allowing prophesying in church and how it is to be done. We can read second century church writings and see that there were churches that still had prophesying in church. But over time, it became less common. The Bible shows us the various members of the body of Christ could minister in church. Paul said "every one of you" in I Corinthians 14:26. But over the centuries, the 'laity' began to be restricted in using spiritual gifts in church.

And there are examples in the Old Testament of times when wonders and such things were rare. Gideon wanted to know where all the wonders were that he had heard about. There was no 'open vision' anymore when Samuel was a child. In Samuel's life, there was a renewal of the prophet ministry.

Judes 6:13
And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.

Read through the Gospels and see how often Jesus did miracles for those who believed. He said such things as 'according to your faith, be it unto you.' He taught about prayers being answered for those who believed.

Is it strange that if a group of people actually ask in faith for spiritual gifts, that the group that asks in faith might see more people with those spiritual gifts than those who do not ask in faith? It is pretty usual among Charismatics and Pentecostals to find people who believe that God does actually gift people with these gifts, and that God actually heals people. But how many people believe that in churches that do not teach that God does such things, or in churches that actively teach against such an idea?
The reason is really found in doctrine. Bible doctrine precludes tongues in the modern church. This is why we contest this issue all the time.

Both camps claim to believe the bible and possess the Holy Spirit yet there remains this divide.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,165
1,795
113
Tongues is a sign to them that believe not. 'Divers tongues' is also among the manifestations of the Spirit give to believers 'for the common good.'
Tongues is a sign to them that believe not, as the end of the matter or Tongues is a sign to them that believe not, period .
Let's make this crystal clear. You say that tongues is a sign for them that believe not 'period.' That was a response to me pointing out that 'divers tongues' is among the gifts given to the saints 'for the common good.'

So let's be clear. Are you rejecting the teaching of scripture that 'divers tongues' is among the gifts the Spirit gives for the common good, as I Corinthians 12 teaches? Come right out and say it if that is what you believe?

It is always a sign to those who believe not (no faith).
And to them that believe, it is one of many gifts given for the common good.

You seem to have difficulty comprehending. Pray that the Lord will open your mind to understand. I will pray for you.

They who desire it to be sign to those who believe become their very own source of faith and seek their own approval, called self-edifying.
The Bible does not teach that. The Bible says that he who speaks in tongues edifies himself. He doesn't say they become their very own source of faith. You just made that up, or got it from some non-biblical source, like you do with a lot of your other ideas.

Speaking in tongues edifies the speaker. If it is interpreted it edifies the church. If it does not edify the whole Church as prophecy then the speaker should be silent.
Paul says he is to be silent 'in the church, and let him speak to himself and to God.' You left out the parts of the verse that contradict your arguments.

we edify not ourselves..as in self righteousness.
This is poor interpretation. In context, edifying oneself is good, and edifying others is better. Paul says he that speaks in tongues edifies himself-- and that he would that ye all spake with tongues. Paul wanted them all to engage in this activity that edified themselves.

But he said I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied. He said that he that prophesies edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. So self-edification is good. Paul wanted them to do that. But edifying others was better. Paul would prefer the edify others.

This is a case of good versus better, not bad versus good. Edifying oneself is good. Edifying others is better. In the church, we should do things to edify the church.

If an individual edifying himself is forbidden, then is it forbidden for a man to read scripture by himself at home?

It seems you desire it to be a sign to a believer, but that would violate the law not subject to change.
You haven't shown any scripture that says that it is wrong to be a sign to a believer. The verse that says that tongues is a sign to them that believe not does not say that all signs are to them that believe not. If you think that, you are thinking irrationally and illogically. I don't know if it is a physical, biological, or purely spiritual problem with your comprehension. But if you interpret the verse that way, you are not comprehending what is written on the page, and you need help.

It can’t be a sign of both those who do have faith and those who have none. They would be trying to serve two masters. Prophecy as the word of God, and speaking into the air mysteries that even the speaker has no understanding.
Tongues is a sign to them that believe not. In the passage, this is related to a specific prophecy about not hearing when God speaks through men of other tongues and other lips. One type of sign is a fulfilled prophecy. Hezekiah asked for a sign that he would live and go up to the house of the LORD. He asked for the shadow of the stairs to move backward. This came to pass, and the sign was fulfilled. Another example of a sign is when Moses predicted that if the Lord had sent him, that the ground would open up and swallow up those in Korah's rebellion. It came to pass. A fulfilled prophecy or prophetic prediction is one kind of sign.

In I Corinthians 14, there is a fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah about God speaking through men of other tongues and other lips that occurs when unbelievers respond to speaking with tongues with unbelief.

Signs are for those who rebel against the word of God.
And for believers, and for anyone else God wants to give a sign to. You are not God. You have no authority to prevent God from giving signs or to tell Him who to give signs to. You have no authority to go back in time and tell Jesus not to answer the apostles' question about the sign of His coming, or to forbid Him from telling the apostles about the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven.

You have no authority to go back in time and tell the angel not to tell the shepherds about the sign of the Babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, and laying in a manger.

I have pointed these things out to you. What is it that keeps you from understanding? That is what you need to focus on and pray about, rather than commenting on this thread.

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
That verse does NOT support your argument in the least. Jesus continued performing signs and wonders after this. There were some who believed after He performed signs and wonders. Thomas believed after he saw evidence of the resurrection. He missed out on a blessing for needing to see the resurrected Jesus before he believed.

If it is clear with what Christ informs us why would you rebel against that
Rebell against what? Jesus said, 'Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.' Then He did signs and wonders. The apostles, following His example and empowered by the Spirit, did signs and wonders. Philip preached and did signs and wonders. It is not rebellion to believe the teachings of the New Testament.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,165
1,795
113
The reason is really found in doctrine. Bible doctrine precludes tongues in the modern church. This is why we contest this issue all the time.

Both camps claim to believe the bible and possess the Holy Spirit yet there remains this divide.
You eisegete the idea into your prooftext, I Corinthians 13. Paul already 'sets up' the topic of the spiritual gifts he would discuss in the epistle in chapter 1 verse 7, "So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." We should keep this in mind when we read about that which is in part being done away when the perfect comes in I Corinthians 13. We should interpret I Corinthians 13 consistently with the rest of the epistle, not just make something up and plug it into the passage.

When the perfect comes, the speech, knowledge, and understanding that Paul had back when he was writing scriptures like I Corinthians, will seem like a child's speech, knowledge, and understanding in comparison.

By reading scripture, do we gain such knowledge that Paul's knowledge becomes like a child's in comparison? No. We can hope to attain to his knowledge. Paul writes in Ephesians 3:$ "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)".

The truly bizarre thing about your interpretation is when dispensationalists try to argue from I Corinthians 13 that tongues and prophecy, as gifts, have ceased. But then they argue that the two witnesses will prophesy in the future. So you end up with this weird, unbiblically justified idea that prophecy ceases and then restarts. If that's the case, why not just believe the gifts restarted at Azusa getting ready for the end? If you make up stuff about eschatology (prophesy ending and restarting) what is the basis for arguing that modern gifts of this sort are all false?

Peter already lets us in on the fact that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit characterized by prophesying, etc. in the last days. There is no reason to think the last days have ended. There is no justification for saying the gift of prophecy ceases before the two witnesses.
 
Last edited:

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,778
943
113
62
You are asking why speaking in tongues aren't common among non-Pentecostals and non-Charismatics. If a Methodist speaks in tongues, people will call him a Charismatic since he speaks in tongues. I think there is a problem with your question.

But to some of your other points, there are some references here and there to speaking in tongues throughout church history, but many, many more references to prophecies, visions, healings, and other miracles. If certain people were speaking in tongues and after 200 or 300 AD, church liturgy left no room for tongues and interpretation, then who would have known certain people were speaking in tongues? It wouldn't have been seen in public much at all.

And if church liturgy left no place for public tongues and interpretation and prophesying, then isn't it possible that the gift would have been left common?

After all, Paul wrote, 'Quench no the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings...." Does this imply that despising prophesyings might quench the Spirit? If the Holy Spirit's manifestations are not welcome, is it possible that the Spirit might give them less often? After a couple of hundred years, liturgy became extremely important, even though a specific liturgy is not commanded in scripture. There are commands in scripture related to allowing prophesying in church and how it is to be done. We can read second century church writings and see that there were churches that still had prophesying in church. But over time, it became less common. The Bible shows us the various members of the body of Christ could minister in church. Paul said "every one of you" in I Corinthians 14:26. But over the centuries, the 'laity' began to be restricted in using spiritual gifts in church.

And there are examples in the Old Testament of times when wonders and such things were rare. Gideon wanted to know where all the wonders were that he had heard about. There was no 'open vision' anymore when Samuel was a child. In Samuel's life, there was a renewal of the prophet ministry.

Judes 6:13
And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.

Read through the Gospels and see how often Jesus did miracles for those who believed. He said such things as 'according to your faith, be it unto you.' He taught about prayers being answered for those who believed.

Is it strange that if a group of people actually ask in faith for spiritual gifts, that the group that asks in faith might see more people with those spiritual gifts than those who do not ask in faith? It is pretty usual among Charismatics and Pentecostals to find people who believe that God does actually gift people with these gifts, and that God actually heals people. But how many people believe that in churches that do not teach that God does such things, or in churches that actively teach against such an idea?
Hi Presidente, I am no doubting that Jesus heals and is doing miracles today! I have been involved 20 years in mission ministry in India with Christians which came not from Pentecostal ore charismatic background. They experienced healings and people turn to Christ. Also in our church people were healed from cancer. And you must also not think that as non charismatic and non pentecostal we are living without the Holy Spirit. But it makes me wonder when Christians are coming and telling me: you need to speak in tongues, otherwise you are a not a real Christian. And I am wonder that people claim to have the gift of healing, but they cant heal all. But they stating they have the same gifts which the apostles had. And other Christians stating if you have enough faith you will be health and wealth. In the bible I found no background for this! And the reality proofs it. Christians will be sick indepent from their faith, Christians are poor indepent of their faith. But then I began questioning where this teaching come from. And found it in the beginning of the Pentecostal movement in 1900. With this movement began the tongue speaking. - Yes I know that in the first century’s these gifts have been, but then disappeared. Instead arose a believe in miracles of relicts. Yes there was the Montanists sect which exist from around 160 a.d till the end of 5th century. And during reformation time were also some sects which used to speak in tongues. Irving and later the new Apostolic Church which is a sect also claims to speak in tongues. Generally you can find speaking in tongues in many non christian religions too.-
For me is simply not clear, how Christians can state you need to speak in tongues? Without a biblical background for this!
1. Cor. 12,30 says clear that not all are getting the gift to speak in tongues!
And also the second baptism with the Holy Spirit and as proof for that the gift speaking in tongues has no biblical background. I know you would reverence acts 2,8, 10 and 19, but these texts you can also interpret in the way and purpose for what they are written.
It is difficult for me to trust such doctrines which are not rootet in the scripture.
 
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
Yes, i know through charismatic movements in the sixties, and later then the churchrenewing movement which is also charismatic. The turned into these churches. Today you will find charismatics in almost all denominations. But i tell you out of them it would not happen. Before the teaching with the 2nd baptism came up in 1900 it was for non church normal to speak in tongues. Why not?
The holy laughter movement went ecumenical across the denomenations in 1994; hence a false prophet as it gathers grapes of thorns and figs of thistles.

Ever wonder why after all that movement of the "spirit" in Catholic Charismatics churches, that the Holy Spirit still has not reproved them of the works of catholicism? Because it was never about the faith in Jesus Christ, but the glory of that movement. So it never served the Lord Jesus Christ at all because it was never of Him in the first place.

This is the falling away from the faith and why it has infiltrated the denomenations that you have to wonder if being identified by a denomenation is a wise course to take since we are supposed to be the disciples of Jesus Christ in testifying of Him in seeking His glory which is exactly what the Holy Spirit has been sent to dwell within us at our salvation to do; the Good News to man; as there is no other calling for a saved believer to preach for others to seek after.

I know it is real... and I know it does not glorify Jesus Christ at all, but the glory is being of that supernatural movement, and the hype is to push the rudiments of that movement that invokes these seducing spirits to come with their signs. They see after these signs not by preaching the Good News, but putting the focus on the Holy Spirit to come & fall on them as if He can move on His own accord in answering prayers to Himself outside of being the promise from the Father at our salvation.

So do not follow after them, and continue to rest in Jesus Christ that you are filled as promised when you were saved at the hearing of the gospel.

Those that disagree will lose themselves in the Book of Acts, ignoring all the scripture in the N.T. that they are reading the Book of Acts wrong as well as wresting Paul's words in 1 Corinthians that opposes the truths in the other epistles.

Scripture cannot go against scripture, and wayward believers want to believe every spirit that comes over them is of God, even if it brings confusion which God is not the author of.

I had read somewhere that the early church fathers ( as per the RCC and not per the actual disciples of the N.T. ) had stated that because they spoke in tongues, it was proof that they were keeping the doctrines within, and yet tongues was never to serve as a sign to believers for anything. 1 Corinthians 14:20-22

So I believe this second "baptism" was what Paul was warning about as that iniquity was reproved in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 by reminding believers when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the hearing of the gospel. This is the falling away from the faith prophesied in 1 Timothy 4:1-2. This is one of the judgment coming on the House of God at the pre trib rapture event as described in Matthew 7:13-27 & Luke 13;24-30.

They are our brothers & sisters as Paul went on to say in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15 but we are to withdraw from them to admonish them not as an enemy, but as brothers.

I do not know how a forum like this can do that in leading those astray to repent in returning to their first love, but I reckon the Lord will help me not to respond to those that have already made up their minds in staying out in the market to be filled with the Holy Ghost again and again as to why they will not be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes.

Because you & I know... it doesn't stop there with that so called second baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or even if it was for the first time with tongues as if it is separate from salvation. No. No. There are more baptisms with the Holy Ghost & more fillings and so much nonsense that it is no wonder why they are out to the market.

May Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd, Whom we trust, keeps us resting in Him & ready to go before the Bridegroom comes, because we know we are filled with the Holy Spirit when we were saved by faith in Jesus Christ as promised.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,165
1,795
113
I do not know how a forum like this can do that in leading those astray to repent in returning to their first love, but I reckon the Lord will help me not to respond to those that have already made up their minds in staying out in the market to be filled with the Holy Ghost again and again as to why they will not be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes.

Because you & I know... it doesn't stop there with that so called second baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or even if it was for the first time with tongues as if it is separate from salvation. No. No. There are more baptisms with the Holy Ghost & more fillings and so much nonsense that it is no wonder why they are out to the market.

Do you consider the apostles to be apostate also, for being filled with the Spirit more than once? Let go of these ideas of yours, and believe what the Bible says on the subject.

Acts 2
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 4
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 4
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

-------
Acts 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 13
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

-------
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 5:18
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
You eisegete the idea into your prooftext, I Corinthians 13. Paul already 'sets up' the topic of the spiritual gifts he would discuss in the epistle in chapter 1 verse 7, "So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." We should keep this in mind when we read about that which is in part being done away when the perfect comes in I Corinthians 13. We should interpret I Corinthians 13 consistently with the rest of the epistle, not just make something up and plug it into the passage.

When the perfect comes, the speech, knowledge, and understanding that Paul had back when he was writing scriptures like I Corinthians, will seem like a child's speech, knowledge, and understanding in comparison.

By reading scripture, do we gain such knowledge that Paul's knowledge becomes like a child's in comparison? No. We can hope to attain to his knowledge. Paul writes in Ephesians 3:$ "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)".

The truly bizarre thing about your interpretation is when dispensationalists try to argue from I Corinthians 13 that tongues and prophecy, as gifts, have ceased. But then they argue that the two witnesses will prophesy in the future. So you end up with this weird, unbiblically justified idea that prophecy ceases and then restarts. If that's the case, why not just believe the gifts restarted at Azusa getting ready for the end? If you make up stuff about eschatology (prophesy ending and restarting) what is the basis for arguing that modern gifts of this sort are all false?

Peter already lets us in on the fact that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit characterized by prophesying, etc. in the last days. There is no reason to think the last days have ended. There is no justification for saying the gift of prophecy ceases before the two witnesses.
I knew you would find doctrine difficult.

Was there a dry season between the former and latter rain in Israel?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Tongues is different ... every other gift goes thru you to edify others. Tongues (not prophesy) is the only gift that edifies ourselves. That's why Paul said it was the least of the gifts, and yet it was the only one he wished we all would do. Think of it as the recharge station, for when you are drained from conducting gifts to the greater body.
if one is speaking in tongues so as to be of greater benefit to the body, then that sounds great

I can't remember being in any churches where it worked that way...

maybe it did and I just wasn't aware of it
 
Last edited:
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Another reference to a lack of signs at a point in history. Notice the Psalm laments this, and doesn't celebrate it
Psalm 74
They said in their hearts,
“Let us destroy them altogether.”
They have burned up all the meeting places of God in the land.


9 We do not see our signs;
There is no longer any prophet;
Nor is there any among us who knows how long.
10 O God, how long will the adversary reproach?
Will the enemy blaspheme Your name forever?
11 Why do You withdraw Your hand, even Your right hand?


(NKJV)
There is nothing about what you offered that would support we walk by sight and seek after a sign. It is saying just the opposite.

That portion of scripture you offered does not make the law of signs (signs are for those rebels who believe not) no longer valid. They destroyed the things God set up to be used in parables that spoke of the suffering of Christ beforehand as the standard for the gospel and installed their own signs as “sign seekers” establishing their own standard (seek after signs before one could believe)

When you look to the context of what is being said. The apostate Jews as their own standard according to their flesh sought after signs rather than the written law of God, prophecy. This made the cross a stumbling block as a sign of their unbelief(no faith) .

The perfect law of God informs us signs are for those who believe not. Prophecy (the one source of faith) for those who do believe God, who remains without form.

Because we are promised that the Spirit of Christ will bring to memory the things he does teach a believer, David requests

Refresh your memory of us—you bought us a long time ago. Psalm 74 :2

He did not request send a us a sign before we can believe. But rather the Holy Spirit used that Psalm to help us remain walking by faith (the unseen)

Your foes roared in the place where you met with us; they set up their standards as signs. Psalms 74:4

Or in other words they set up their own signs as signs rejecting walking by faith according to prophecy.

It was their goal to take away anything that reminded them of the God of scriptures according to His standards. Because they walked by sight the removal of things seen must be made .(out of sight out of mind ) before they could set up their own standard.

They said in their hearts, “We will crush them completely! “They burned every place where God was worshiped in the land. Psalms 74:8

Did it make God disappear? Did God send them a new sign so that they could believe (have faith)? Or did he hope they would rely on prophecy to guide them by faith as he brought it to their memory?

We are given no signs from God; no prophets are left, and none of us knows how long this will be. How long will the enemy mock you, God? Psalms 74:9-10

it is an evil generation (natural man that does seek after them. the last one was the sign of Jonas. God is no longer bring new revelations as prophecy.

Will you obey the commandment not to add or take away from the perfect? (complete will of God).
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
The truly bizarre thing about your interpretation is when dispensationalists try to argue from I Corinthians 13 that tongues and prophecy, as gifts, have ceased. But then they argue that the two witnesses will prophesy in the future. So you end up with this weird, unbiblically justified idea that prophecy ceases and then restarts. If that's the case, why not just believe the gifts restarted at Azusa getting ready for the end? If you make up stuff about eschatology (prophesy ending and restarting) what is the basis for arguing that modern gifts of this sort are all false?

Peter already lets us in on the fact that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit characterized by prophesying, etc. in the last days. There is no reason to think the last days have ended. There is no justification for saying the gift of prophecy ceases before the two witnesses.
The gift did not come without a understanding (prophecy) God’s understanding given to us. It is not a stand-alone gift... Just speak into the air and venerate oneself as evidence a person has the Holy Spirit.

We are in the last days It began when Christ said it is finished. The veil is rent, the time of reformation had come.

Tongues is sign who those who believe not, it was not the manner he brought prophecy (new revelations from God) it was one of the many manners Christ brought prophecy when he was still adding to His book of prophecy,the Bible .

Today, for the last two thousand years we have the whole will of God with no laws missing by which we could know him more adequately.

The two witnesses in Revelation are the same two used throughout the scriptures as the witness of God’s prophecy. .(Moses who represents the law of God and Elisa to represent the prophets.)

Let us hear Christ who abides in the believer. And not like Peter who sought after signs before he would believe .He wanted to create three idols (tabernacles) as a sign.

The two witnesses ,the law and the prophets do not bring new prophecy, as a revelation of God. That would violate the warning not to add to the law and the prophets. (Scripture)

Below are the two witnesses spoke of in Revelation the last chapter of the now perfect will of God. It’s what those two do, prophesy, by declaring the existing word of God, as it is written. (Prophecy)

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Revelation 11:3


And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. Mar 9:2-7

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luk 16:29

Saul who sought to kill the Christians with letters of approval before he was born again of the incorruptible seed the word of God. He knew what the law and the prophets represented (Sola scriptura ) the sign seekers could not prove they wer e not the final authority of God as it is written.

Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which "they call heresy", so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:Act 24:13

Again the same two witnesses found in Revelation 11.