I was saved in a tiny Baptist church, I was almost 14 at the time and had never read the bible. I asked God what He wanted me to do and He talked to me and told me that you must accept My Son as your Savior. He explained other things to me to and in time I went forward and committed to God and called on Jesus to be my Savior. Never felt anything but relief(the battle was over). The next morning I got up and was going outside when God begin to speak to me from what seemed to be my lower abdomen, He was saying over and over, I love you and you are My child. After that at the mention of Jesus I would have fountains of love springing forth. So we had a different experience but not so different.
Acts /1cor 12, 13, 14 baptsim in the HG and gifts of the Spirit
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[FONT="]Acts 8;12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Clearly they received the Holy Spirit after conversion.
It even says;
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
So,2 things. 1) you need to make a case for SALVATION recieved through the LAYING ON OF HANDS.
2)Explain why AFTER SALVATION,they needed to "recieve the Holy Spirit,if indeed we reciece all fullness at conversion,and have no need for a second work.
Clearly they did receive a second work.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Clearly they received the Holy Spirit after conversion.
It even says;
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
So,2 things. 1) you need to make a case for SALVATION recieved through the LAYING ON OF HANDS.
2)Explain why AFTER SALVATION,they needed to "recieve the Holy Spirit,if indeed we reciece all fullness at conversion,and have no need for a second work.
Clearly they did receive a second work.[/FONT]
P
This is conjecture.
The Book of acts has the same Jesus today as back then.
he is the same. They received the Holy Spirit as a second work. It is biblical.It is not some obscure "one time back then"
"doctrine" that needs man's approval. I already am operating in it. I,myself received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit after conversion.
(psst,just like they did)
The Book of acts has the same Jesus today as back then.
he is the same. They received the Holy Spirit as a second work. It is biblical.It is not some obscure "one time back then"
"doctrine" that needs man's approval. I already am operating in it. I,myself received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit after conversion.
(psst,just like they did)
There are some who teach this like Hagee.
But there are others who son't see a separate plan of salvation, but see that God's promises to Israel have not all come to pass yet. There are still some prophecies that are to be fulfilled which will be at the return of Christ. I didn't see what others meant about this until I began studying the OT prophets that spoke of the end times.
Your scripture quotes are great and speak of how we are to see one another in the spirit. It's how we are to treat one another. Love looks past any division wall because we are all one in Messiah.
But we obviously see that there is still male and female while living here on this earth. In the natural order of things, we still see slaves who come to the Lord. Women still give birth, men still lead churches, Jews still have promises to look forward to when they see Him whom they have pierced when He returns.
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2 [FONT="]He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Either paul is confused,or he speaks of a infilling/impartation/second work AFTER CONVERSION.
If their is no need for a second infilling,why did they recieve it? And why by the laying on of hands???
If it is conversion,then they were not converted,and we would need to assume conversion comes through the laying on of hands.
See the quandry one creates by glossing over scripture?.
Lets see if there is more;
[/FONT][FONT="]5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
...........THEN.........;[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
There it is again. Clearly a second work.[/FONT]
Either paul is confused,or he speaks of a infilling/impartation/second work AFTER CONVERSION.
If their is no need for a second infilling,why did they recieve it? And why by the laying on of hands???
If it is conversion,then they were not converted,and we would need to assume conversion comes through the laying on of hands.
See the quandry one creates by glossing over scripture?.
Lets see if there is more;
[/FONT][FONT="]5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
...........THEN.........;[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
There it is again. Clearly a second work.[/FONT]
P
lets look at another example that will indicate what i am saying is true;
here we have the disciples encounter with the resurrected Jesus;
[FONT="]Jn 20;22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.[/FONT]
[FONT="]25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.[/FONT]
[FONT="]26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.[/FONT]
[FONT="]27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.[/FONT]
[FONT="]28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.[/FONT]
[FONT="]30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:[/FONT]
[FONT="]31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
He gives them the HS. He breathes on them and they receive.
Not salvation. That is NOT salvation. Salvation ,as Jesus said,is believing on the one Jesus Christ.
They believed,THEN LATER, they received the HS.
They were saved FIRST.
Now,why are they told to wait for the Holy Spirit in the upper room? (Remember,You guys believe it is a package deal,with NO NEED for a second infilling)
It is because,we need the power. We need Jesus,and THE SAME WORK that Jesus received when the HS descended upon Him. Remember it says "then Jesus full of the HS went into the wilderness"
You /we are not given a pass. You/we need to raise dead people,make the lame walk,and the blind see.
It is no weak,inferior Jesus that now reigns. It is the same. The same Jesus. The same power.[/FONT]
here we have the disciples encounter with the resurrected Jesus;
[FONT="]Jn 20;22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.[/FONT]
[FONT="]25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.[/FONT]
[FONT="]26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.[/FONT]
[FONT="]27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.[/FONT]
[FONT="]28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.[/FONT]
[FONT="]30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:[/FONT]
[FONT="]31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
He gives them the HS. He breathes on them and they receive.
Not salvation. That is NOT salvation. Salvation ,as Jesus said,is believing on the one Jesus Christ.
They believed,THEN LATER, they received the HS.
They were saved FIRST.
Now,why are they told to wait for the Holy Spirit in the upper room? (Remember,You guys believe it is a package deal,with NO NEED for a second infilling)
It is because,we need the power. We need Jesus,and THE SAME WORK that Jesus received when the HS descended upon Him. Remember it says "then Jesus full of the HS went into the wilderness"
You /we are not given a pass. You/we need to raise dead people,make the lame walk,and the blind see.
It is no weak,inferior Jesus that now reigns. It is the same. The same Jesus. The same power.[/FONT]
Hi Samuel, I was saved about 30 some years ago and I received the Holy Spirit at the time I was saved. We had 2 couples that kind of took us under their wing.
I have been involved in what you're calling the Charismatic movement. Like you, I have seen atrocities, but I have seen genuine Holy Spirit experiences or at least what I would call the power of the Holy Spirit working to do a miracle in someone's life.
I have been with churches who try to make or force something to happen and others who waited on the Holy Spirit and allowed Him to do His work. There's a difference and maybe you've only had bad experiences.
My husband for years had a prostrate infection that affected his kidneys and he'd have a high fever and was delirous with fever.
One night me and my children began to pray for him and he got better that night. Without realizing it for a couple of years, he was completely healed. Each year he'd have to be hospitalized and given high powered doses of antibiotics.
Each time he was in the hospital for about a week. We didn't realize he was completely healed until after a couple of years ......it dawned on us that he didn't have the infection any more since that prayer and he's never had it since.
The bible says that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Anyone who testifies to Jesus biblically is what I think Paul meant when he said that he wanted all of us to prophecy. Others may disagree, but that's how I see it anyway.
I don't see it as some do as if there putting on a show. I think there's been abuse in every way possible as to the gifting of the Holy Spirit and how He works in each one of us.
I would like to encourage you to look beyond the negative experiences you've had. The enemy would love to use the abuses to discourage the true, the real and genuine workings of the Spirit in our lives.
P
Salvation in general,yes.
However paul preached to two Groups. Jews,and gentiles.
The "gospel" to the Jew is ,messiah has come,and is comming again.
The gospel to the gentile is ,you are included,should you accept the invitation.
Two different "gospels/good newses",one savior,Lord and doorway.
BTW,where is this Hagee error? Is it replacement theology?
However paul preached to two Groups. Jews,and gentiles.
The "gospel" to the Jew is ,messiah has come,and is comming again.
The gospel to the gentile is ,you are included,should you accept the invitation.
Two different "gospels/good newses",one savior,Lord and doorway.
BTW,where is this Hagee error? Is it replacement theology?
P
It is a pattern only,not a rigid doctrine. As is salvation. It (salvation) is usually through the pattern of evangelism,but can also be trough other avenues.
In acts 10,the gentiles were saved,filled with the HS,spake in tongues,and later,were water baptized.
None the less,the pattern is clearly laying on of hands. Doesn't have to be,just usually is.
In acts 10,the gentiles were saved,filled with the HS,spake in tongues,and later,were water baptized.
None the less,the pattern is clearly laying on of hands. Doesn't have to be,just usually is.
I am going to try to separate the good, from the bad, and the ugly. There are many different people under the Pentecostal banner, some good, some bad, and some downright ugly, however there are certain things that define them as Pentecostals. They all believe in a second baptism of the spirit, and they all believe in manifestations of the spirit, and they all claim their beginning back to Parham. I think that it can be proven by common sense, good scriptural knowledge, and good research, that the beginning of Pentecostalism was not of God. The concept of Pentecostalism itself is not scriptural, there are not two baptisms of the Holy Spirit, one at conversion and the other so you can speak in tongues. Also, no one should be so foolish as to call something a manifestation of the Spirit unless you have a clear example of such a thing in the NT. Also, none of us today can GIVE the Spirit to another person, the Spirit of God is given by God when a person repents and calls on Jesus to be his Savior. If I could give the Spirit by placing my hands on folks I would go out and save the whole world. Pentecostalism has manipulated unique events in the bible and tried to attach it to Christians today, such as the APOSTLES placing their hands on people to receive the Spirit. Paul praying for disciples of John to receive the Spirit. Jesus breathing on the 10 apostles to receive the Spirit. Our example is what happened to the 3000 on the day of Pentecost, one receiving of the Spirit after repentance and that was it. Because Pentecostals have yielded themselves to spirits therefore much of the movement has false spirits in it.